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 Post subject: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Which one should have the lowest temperatures (with stock coolers in an average mid ATX case)?
I know Intel uses more conservative TDP ratings, so "35W" may be quite close to AMD's 18W rating.

Even if they cannot run completely fanless, i'd like to have the CPU fan turning off when the system is idle or not very loaded.

Also undervolting could help lowering the TDP.
I've found this tool for the AMD E-350 that reportedly can lower the temperature up to 10°C.
I'm not sure if i could get the same results with the G630T.

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Last edited by eadmaster on Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:36 pm 
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I'm not sure if this will help as I don't own a G630T, but I do have an E-350 based laptop. I also have an i5-2467M laptop with an Intel rated 17W TDP. The e-350 is in an x120e and the i5-2467M in an E220s, both made by Lenovo.

While both laptops are similar in size, they are different designs and likely have very different coolers. The E220s is a bit thinner and has a slower fan, which may mean it has less cooling capability. This does translate into subjectively quieter operation. Both had the screen brightness maxed (level 15) and used the same power brick for the power draw tests. Take this with whatever grain of salt you wish.

Running prime95 with no GPU stress (other than Aero) in Win7 X64.

The E-350 maxes out at around 70 C and 27 watts from the wall. Idle is 16 W from the wall

The i5-2467M maxes out around 78 C and 36 watts from the wall. Once it hits around 77 - 78 C it usually kills the turbo boost and drops back to 1.6 GHz from 2.1 GHz. After it cools for a bit Turbo goes back on and the cycle repeats. Idle is 15 W from the wall.


While the Intel has higher temps and power consumption it is night and day faster than the AMD. Even when running on battery which drops it to 800 MHz it is still much faster than the 1.6 GHz E-350. The G630T at 2.3 GHz should be even faster still, so take that into account when you make your decision. The AMD does have a somewhat better GPU, so if gaming is a big focus then you may wish to consider it.

I'd suggest that you go for the G630T unless gaming and/or budget are your top priorities. While it is probably possible to run it fanless, a decent cooler with an inaudibly slow fan (500 rpm or so) would probably work very well if your case has room for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:58 pm 
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I've used a G620T. I've not used an E-350 but it's common knowledge that the CPU part of the Intel is more efficient and more powerful while the AMD has the better GPU.

You might be able to get the Intel to run at a lower effective TDP by underclocking. That's different and more effective than undervolting. But most desktop boards seem to be limited to a 1.6Ghz underclock unfortunately.
Be careful if you undervolt any CPU by the way: it can affect stability and it's not trivial to test for that.

The E-350 doesn't really have a stock cooler. But some of the stock coolers of the E-350 boards are designed to work fanless.
The Zotac heatsink seems to work the best without a fan. But understand that the E-350 is nothing like the mobile Atom you were considering: if you want reasonable load temperature without any fans, you'll need an open case design.

The stock cooler of the G630T is pretty lousy and I wouldn't want to use it without the fan spinning. Even the idle power consumption of that CPU isn't negligible, if you're using the IGP anyway. With a light load, it'll probably overheat.

The G630T is undervolted already. With a board that allows it, you might be able to undervolt it further but it won't change the picture: you need a different heatsink for fanless operation.
I'm not sure there's any point in picking the G630T over the G530 by the way. You could get a decent heatsink with the money you save. With a thrid-party heatsink, desktop CPUs become a lot more compelling.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:19 pm 
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HFat wrote:
I'm not sure there's any point in picking the G630T over the G530 by the way. You could get a decent heatsink with the money you save. With a thrid-party heatsink, desktop CPUs become a lot more compelling.

The G530 is rated @ 65W.

Now i'm also considering some AMD Llano CPUs (A4-3300M and A6-3400M) also rated 35W.
I've found it at bloody prices on ebay, plus i could recycle my old Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro.
My only concern is it still could get too hot, forcing the fan to run high even when idle.

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Last edited by eadmaster on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:23 pm 
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The TDP ratings are useless.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:00 pm 
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HFat wrote:
The TDP ratings are useless.

I think if you are comparing CPUs of the same manufacturer then TDPs DO mean something. :)
BTW they are useful only to compare temps at full load (not what i'm interested).

So far i've found this notebook review with and AMD A4-3300M.
If i get an Asus mobo with Q-Fan support, i should be able to set the CPU fan to stay off until 40/50°C are reached, and so enjoy a fanless system during low load.

The Intel G630T would probably be cooler thanks to the Enhanced SpeedStep (more aggressive than AMD Cool'n'quiet), but it will costs me almost twice the price!

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:31 pm 
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You are aware that the mobile CPUs have a different socket, right?
For all I know, it's compatible with the socket you find on regular boards. Maybe you've verified this already instead of simply assuming you'll be able to do what you want. But I don't know exactly how much you don't know and I don't want you to buy incompatible parts.

eadmaster wrote:
TDPs DO mean something. :)

Obviously. But they don't mean what you think they mean.
I'm not going to keep repeating it. Search for the relevant information if you don't believe me but quit assuming you know so much!

eadmaster wrote:
enjoy a fanless system during low load.

I wouldn't count on it unless you accept higher temperatures than 50C. Have you ever tried running a computer without any fans?


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:25 am 
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HFat wrote:
You are aware that the mobile CPUs have a different socket, right?
For all I know, it's compatible with the socket you find on regular boards. Maybe you've verified this already instead of simply assuming you'll be able to do what you want. But I don't know exactly how much you don't know and I don't want you to buy incompatible parts.

Of course i've verified, the socket is the FS1.

HFat wrote:
eadmaster wrote:
TDPs DO mean something. :)

Obviously. But they don't mean what you think they mean.
I'm not going to keep repeating it. Search for the relevant information if you don't believe me but quit assuming you know so much!

Probably i did some wrong assumptions here, the "TDP" concept is new for me.

HFat wrote:
eadmaster wrote:
enjoy a fanless system during low load.

I wouldn't count on it unless you accept higher temperatures than 50C. Have you ever tried running a computer without any fans?

I guess in this case the CPU will get hot much faster.
Anyway this is my planned setup:
- CPU fan and dissipator: Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro
- case: NZXT Nemesis (i'm planning to add more ventilation holes on the side)
- PSU: ATX-230W (with its own fan always running)
- motherboard: Asus F1A75-M LE
Do you think the A4-3300M will reach high temperatures very fast with this setup when fanless and idle?

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:19 am 
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FS1 CPU, FM1 board... I hope you know what you're doing!

Why would you want to avoid using the fan on your CPU heatsink if your PSU has a (presumably loud) spinning fan? This makes no sense.

Fanless cooling with conventional heatsinks requires a fairly large temperature gradient. It's OK if the board is designed to work without fans but it can be a problem if it's not.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:24 am 
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HFat wrote:
FS1 CPU, FM1 board... I hope you know what you're doing!

oops, you are right! :oops:
Now i'm switching to the A4-3300 (desktop version), since it has a better GPU for gaming than SB.
I agree with this setup running fanless does not have much sense, but i'd like to replace the PSU in the future.

The Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro is rated for 150W "Cooling Capacity" (i don't know what they mean for that exactly).

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:05 am 
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I went with the A6 instead of the A4. It has better graphics.

On TDP. The G530 is 65W, the 630T just 35W but they are essentially the same CPU. If you lower the speed and voltage of the G530 it will draw the same as a "35W" CPU. Only pay extra for a factory underclocked CPU if you really need it. In most cases you don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 temperatures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:57 am 
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Vicotnik wrote:
If you lower the speed and voltage of the G530 it will draw the same as a "35W" CPU. Only pay extra for a factory underclocked CPU if you really need it.

The G530 is factory underclocked! There's no need to do anything it if you want it to draw less than 35W.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:52 am 
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I assumed the G530 had a higher defalut clock and Vcore compared to the 630T. If not, I don't know why Intel would rate it at 65W rather than 35W.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 pm 
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It doesn't have a faster clock because it's a cheap low-end model.
It might have a higher voltage but that doesn't make much difference in practice because of the underclock.

The reason it's not rated 35W or less is that Intel doesn't rate individual CPUs. It's rated 65W like all non-T dual-cores regardless of the CPU's actual TDP.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:07 pm 
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I am more attracted to AMD APUs due to better GPU compatibility than the G530.

Also check this Llano fanless build.
Do you think i could get similar temperatures with this setup:
- CPU: AMD A6-3500
- CPU heatsink: Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro (fan turned off when idle)
- case: NZXT Nemesis (with more ventilation holes on the side)
- PSU: picoPSU 90W
- motherboard: Asus F1A75-M LE (mATX, not mITX)
- RAM: 1x Corsair CMZ4GX3M1A1600C9
- HDD: SEAGATE FreeAgent GoFlex Portable 500Gb (connected via SATA)

EDIT: my actual PSU provides only 10A on the 12V rail, while the Asus manual recommends at least 15A:
Quote:
If you intend to use a PSU with 20-pin and 4-pin power plugs, ensure that the 20-pin power plug can provide at least 15 A on +12 V and that the PSU has a minimum power rating of 300W. The system may become unstable or may not boot up if the power is inadequate.
Can i use it as well before undervolting and switching to a picoPSU?

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:18 am 
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10A will be enough for that system. No problem.

13W is impressive. When I have the time I will have to try to get close to that with my HTPC. :)

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HTPC: ASRock H81M-ITX | Pentium G3420 | 4GB DDR3 | X25-M G2 80GB | HDPLEX H1-S | picoPSU | No moving parts | Idle 11.2W AC
Gaming: Intel DH77EB | i5-3570K | GTX 760 | 16GB DDR3 | Intel 520 120GB | TJ08-E | G-360 360W
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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:47 am 
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eadmaster wrote:
Do you think i could get similar temperatures with this setup:

Of course not!
Have you missed the heatpipes connecting the CPU heatsink to the case? Cooling something more powerful than Zacate or Atom passively is not cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:12 pm 
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In the end, i've bought the A6-3500 due to the better CPU+GPU/price ratio.
Probably it's not the best system to run fanless in idle, but i will try as well.

EDIT: what do you think about this case:
e.mini E-2007 ?
It comes with a fanless 120W PSU and it's very cheap!
I may mod the side window for better airflow.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:38 pm 
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You can forget about passive operation with a powerful CPU in such a thin case. What heatsink would use?


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Well, I guess the AMD stock cooler is not good...
Then, let's remove the side window, install the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro, and leave it (half) open air.
What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:04 am 
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eadmaster wrote:
e.mini E-2007 ?
It comes with a fanless 120W PSU and it's very cheap!
I may mod the side window for better airflow.

I can give you some rapide (around 30mins) measures of a not so bigger, but bigger, and fanned, somewhat similar setup (Antec Minuet 80+ 350W, AMD Athlon II X4, 785G IGP, Scythe Big Shuriken with 25mm Scythe Slipstream PWM, Scythe S-Flex 80A exhaust). With a couple of PRIME95 instances running (an average of 55-60% load):

1 - fanned, "quiet" (120mm CPU and 80mm exhaust both running about 370-400rpm): CPU 37°C, motherboard 37°C (not stabilized after 15 mins, ambient 26°C)
2 - fanless (toothpicks to stop both the fans): CPU 64°C, motherboard 47°C (not stabilized after 7 mins, ambient 26°C)
3 - fanned, full speed (120mm CPU running about 1300rpm, 80mm exhaust running about 1000rpm): CPU 28°C, motherboard 38°C (not stabilized after 7 mins, ambient 26°C)

Leaving aside sensors' inaccuracy and some form of temp hysteresis, take also note that under any conditions there's still an internal fanned (80mm, slim) PSU to support some airflow inside the case.

What do you think about your case of choice? I would also be worried about regulation and noise suppression of a cheap, fanless 120W PSU.

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:28 am 
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eadmaster wrote:
Then, let's remove the side window, install the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro, and leave it (half) open air.
What do you think?

Don't do this. Open air is nice for fanless cooling but can be risky and such a setup would be noisy as soon as you turn on the fan.

As people have no doubt told you countless times, the preferred solutions are:
-a closed case which partially absorbs the noise from the always-on fan(s)
-an expensive case connected to the CPU heatsink with heatpipes
-an open case for fanless cooling of a low-power CPU (Zacate or Atom + dedicated low-power GPU)


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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:27 pm 
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HFat wrote:
-a closed case which partially absorbs the noise from the always-on fan(s)

Allright, i'll this solution first since i already have all the gears for that.

Btw, with this setup is it really worth switching the AMD stock cooler with the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro?

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:37 am 
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eadmaster wrote:
Btw, with this setup is it really worth switching the AMD stock cooler with the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro?

Providing that your old cooler sports the current PWM fan, at its slowest speed it *could* be quiet, so it may worth to switch.
OTOH I don't know the elder 3 pin fan, so YMMV (the standard F9 is an above average fan, good cooling, acceptable noise, poor quality, but the F9 Pro is worse than it).
However, as you already have it, you have just to try, haven't you?

Broadly speaking, instead, nowadays there are far better cooler than the Freezer 64, for a similar amount of money (it has a MSRP of about 38 USD).

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 Post subject: Re: Intel G630T vs AMD E-350 vs A4-3300 fanless in idle
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:14 am 
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eadmaster wrote:
is it really worth switching the AMD stock cooler with the Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro?

I've never used this cooler but yes, in principle. Even if there are better heatsinks it's still going to beat the small stock heatsink.
You might have to replace the fan if it has become loud with age however. And maybe the fan wasn't the best to begin with (I don't know).


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