Greetings to everyone! So happy to have found this forum. I am going to make a new DAW build for making music with virtual instruments. For this I will acquire large orchestral sample libraries, Cubase 6 and an audio interface which will probably be RME Babyface, using USB 2.0. A silent PC would be great although I probably will not make any live recordings with it. There is no spending limit, I'm just looking for a good price/performance ratio, so I guess the system should cost no more than 1500€ (without display, mouse and keyboard). I have read the recent DAW-related threads on this forum and already found some valuable information there.

I have built a computer only once in my life, it was a cheap one and still took quite a long time to build, then it wouldn't work because the internal power switch cable was not correctly on all three pins... noticed that after two weeks of wondering. Ideally I'd like to see myself building my own computer but on the other hand I could get all parts (of the below list) in a German shop which only charges 20€ for building it for me, so I'm considering that. Do you think there is any reason why having a DAW computer built by a general computer shop might be a bad choice?

I currently have this shopping list:

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Box, LGA1155
Heatsink: Scythe Mugen 3
Motherboard: ASUS P8Z77-M, Sockel 1155, mATX, DDR3
RAM: 16GB-Kit G.Skill RipJawsZ C3-14900U CL9-10-9-28 (DDR3-1866)
GPU: Onboard (Intel HD Graphics 3000)
SSD for OS: Crucial M4 64GB SSD 6,4cm (2,5")
SSD for most often used samples: Crucial M4 128GB SSD 6,4cm (2,5")
HDD for samples: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200rpm (the sample libraries will be delivered on this)
HDD for projects: Hitachi Deskstar 7K3000 2TB, SATA 6Gb/s 8,9cm (3,5")
Case: Fractal Design Define Mini
PSU: Seasonic X-Series Fanless X-400FL 400W
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit OEM

• CPU: The Ivy Bridge is already out, I know, but I've read conflicting reports about its usability in DAW, so Sandy Bridge i7 seems to be the safe option.
• Heatsink: Is there any reason to prefer Noctua D14 or C14 and spend 30€ more than for Scythe Mugen 3?
• Motherboard: Is there any good reason to spend 60€ more for a P8Z77-V board?
• RAM: I also considered 32GB, but there is some conflicting information on whether it would be any use to me. I might as well buy it later if needed. The G.Skill RAM was mentioned on another forum as a good brand.
• GPU: If using onboard graphics makes the system slower, I could consider a separate GPU, but as for now it seems that this would do quite OK.
• SSD: I wonder if 64GB will be enough for the OS and the programs? Perhaps I should take 128GB?
• HDD: 7200rpm seems to be needed for DAW use. What's your take on WD Caviar and Hitachi?
• Case: Is there any downside to using mATX case for such a powerful system? Is the Define Mini in any way inferior to Define R3? Are there good reasons to take Antec P183 instead of Fractal Design?
• PSU: Will 400W be enough for my large orchestral sample projects?

Thanks so much in advance for your kind help!

Unless you're passionate for mechanics, IMVHO no.


The FanXpert 2.


IMHO yes, you should take the larger one.
And there are better SSDs out there: what do you think about a pair of Intel 330s? Or some Corsair Force 3 120Gb, which seems pretty cheap nowadays in Europe (but I can't confirm for Germany)? However, I don't know current reliability stats for the Corsairs.


I prefer last generation Hitachis (they are faster and quieter), but at any rate, if you think 7200rpm are mandatory, use a Noise Magic NoVibes suspension for them (and a case which can match them in its 5,25 bays).


400W is far more than necessary, but please take also note that currently some Super Flower/Kingwin (PE and FG series) are better than the X-series.

If you want a small but no more expandable rig, you might think also to a cheap Antec NSK3480, providing you'll swap the PSU fan with something like a low spinning one (I used often the Noctua R8s, but they are 3 pins fan and they're not so well regulated by currently Intel boards). Without a powerful GPU it could be just nice.

Unless you intend to massively OC your CPU, the Mugen 3 should easily cope with the CPU. And it's cheaper too. I dont mind the Crucial M4 64 GB. SSD's have very similar performance so you shouldn't be able to feel the difference. And the M4 is very reliable unlike the Sandforce SSD's which have had issues.

Regarding the size of m-ATX. The only practical difference would be that there's less internal space to work in, but the Fractal Design Mini is very roomy for a m-ATX case. There should be no thermal difference between ATX and m-ATX cases. The only drawback with the Define Mini is the limited space behind the mainboard for cable routing, IMO. Otherwise, I think it's a great case that I even considered buying.

GPU: if your applications don't require much GPU power, the Intel iGPU should easily suffice.

IMHO it's not exactly so: even the Crucial have had its issues (just an example, which you should know), as *any* SSD (even the reliability champions, the Intel G2/G3). And moreover what may be true for a Corsair firmware, it's not quite the same for Intel Sandforce-driven 330s & 520s.
Not to mention that there *are* real life performance differences, which mostly depend on specific usage patterns.

I am thinking about P8Z77-V because of the Fan Xpert 2 you mentioned as well as 4 internal SATA 6 Gb/s (for eventual additional SSDs) and I am also considering Fractal Design R3 for aesthetical reasons, I would like to have another colour than black, Arctic White might actually look great in my room.

Here in Europe, Super-Flower SF500P14FG 80plus Platinum fanless is probably the same PSU as Kingwin STR-500. It seems to be a good option. How is it better than Seasonic?

Corsair Force 3 120 GB seems to be available and around 25€ cheaper than Crucial M4 128 GB. That will add up to 50€ sparings. Is Corsair as reliable as Crucial?

What are the last generation Hitachis you mentioned? Is the Hitachi Deskstar I mentioned one of them?

Scythe Mugen 3 seems to be quite challenging to install. I've heard that the computer shop that could build up system might not like to ship the system with the Mugen 3 installed into it. I might consider Noctua also because of that.

It is exactly the same PSU. At any rate, with reference to the Seasonic, the SuperFlower/Kingwin is more efficient, it has better electrical performances, and it is less prone to buzz and whining: you may check the relevant SPCR review and also the JonnyGuru's one.
Please, take note: the X-Series IS an excellent performer. The SuperFlower is actually just slightly better.


Broadly speaking, absolutely NO: the Crucial M4 128GB is more probably that not (along with the Intel 510 120Gb) the most reliable modern drive on the market (there is also the Intel 320-series which are usually way overpriced and however slower).
The M4 is also considerably slower at writing (expecially with large files) than the SandForce 28xx drives (like the Corsairs 3 & GT, or Intel 330/520, or the 3rd gen OCZ Solid/Agility/Vertex).
If the maximum achievable reliability is the top priority, more probably that not Kuzzia's advice is to be preferred.


I was thinking mainly to Hitachi HDS721010DLE630 (Deskstar 7K1000.D). There's also the bigger 7K3000 but which need a suspension, like the NoiseMagic NoVibes. I don't know the newest Deskstar 7K4000.
Noise-wise, alternatively you may think to the Seagate Barracudas (series DM001/DM003) which are to be favourably considered (it's faster than ther Caviar Black on large files, slower on small files, and it comes in bigger sizes than the 7K1000.D).
About the 7K3000 and Barracuda, you may check the relevant SPCR reviews.


I don't know if it's true (I'm referring to the Mugen3), but I'm used to build systems, and no mounting can scare me.
AFAIK, the only option to ship a system with a CPU heatsink mounted is the Gelid Tranquillo (source: Puget Systems), safety-wise.
Eventually, I wouldn't be worried about mounting the heatsink by myself, but I can't help about this.

I've installed a Scythe Mugen 2 once, and if the Mugen 3 installs in the same way, then I'd say that the installation is very easy. You just need another person to hold the cooler very close to the CPU socket while you install the backplate.

Hi and Welcome to SPCR.

Here's a couple of forum builds with the Design Mini. It's a nice MicroATX Tower.
Jen Lyns IV
Das_Saunamies
You might consider doing some fan replacement - but that is always easy to do after the initial build and you've had a chance to test/tweak.

The main difference between Fan Xpert+ and 2 is the ability to turn fans off at low temps in Fan Xpert2.

Some component comments:

CPU/mobo: Can you point me to a couple of the Ivy Bridge/DAW problem posts? I'm curious as to whether it's an IVB CPU issue or an immature driver issue. Any CPU/chipset/mobo is going to have a LOT of firmware/driver updates in the first three months of release. We are their beta testers

SSD - I'm a fan of the Crucial m4. Samsung 830's are also nice. Go with the 128GB OS drive as it'll be faster than the 64GB version.

HDD - Both the WD Black and the Hitachi are noisier than the Seagate drive mentioned.

GPU: Don't worry about the integrated GPU - it will not impact your CPU performance. It takes very little GPU horsepower to display 2D on a monitor.

RAM: Unless you plan to use a ton of voices/samples/tracks, 16GB is probably good enough.

PSU: Superflower and Seasonic are both good. As you are in Germany, take a look at the Be Quiet Dark Power Pro 10 550 W

20€ assembly: The upside is that is REALLY cheap! 20€ to have someone assembly/update drivers/update windows/debug the build is worth it. The downside is - making sure it's packed well for shipping.

Thanks for the welcome! Define Mini is a nice choice but I guess Define R3 is equally good? Perhaps I'll take that in white and a Mobo with Fan Xpert2.


I am not sure whether I found a concrete example of Ivy Bridge/DAW problem. This and this at least gave me the feeling that I should rather avoid Ivy Bridge since I am building the computer right now. One the other hand, there has been one good experience too. I am not very familiar with computer tweaking, so I thought going the safe route brings more rewards to me than the marginal increase in processor power.


I hope you are right. I'd rather spare the extra 130€ if 32GB is not needed. Then again, I do not have a good judgement of how much it is going to be. I'll take 16GB and we'll see.


This is the most puzzling question I have: How much PSU power do I REALLY need for making orchestral music with virtual instruments? The hardware people say '400W is more than enough for your system' and virtual instrument users say 'I'd go for at least 650W'. That's a huge difference. I'd hate to spend more (or take a louder PSU) and then pay more for the electricity if 400-500W would do, but having to replace PSU later because of lacking power is also something I want to avoid. What is your take?

Concerning the Be Quiet: Did I understand right that it is as silent as the fanless PSUs although it has a fan?


Well, 20€ is just for the assembly but still it's a bargain. But if they do not ship it with it CPU heatsink installed, then I should probably build the system myself.

I do not make music, but I guess the answer is: how do you make orchestral music with virtual instruments?
Are CPU+motherboard+RAM+disk all the tools you need, or is there something more to be considered?

Talking about hardware, the hardware discussed above plus a USB interface (probably RME Babyface) and a MIDI keyboard is all I would use right now.

Well, AFAIK you shouldn't need more than 160W DC, at most, but let's say 180W DC to be at large.
Mind to that: the PSU feeds all those hardware and nothing else, so the the total power consumption is driven (and limited) just by that hardware, which is not limitless in power requirements (the above mentioned 160W DC, exactly).

Maybe for your drives get 7200rpm notebook drives and put them in scythe quiet drives. In my experience that is a lot quieter than soft mounting or suspending a desktop drive - I have done both and it is really hard to hear a notebook drive inside a scythe box. You can generally get notebook drives with enough space now, at least for your samples. I'm running my samples off a 500k notebook drive. I run a home studio and I really appreciate a quiet machine, it's worth it!

Define R3, Antec Solo, Corsair 550D...those and a few others will work fine if you go ATX.


The posts that were negative were commenting on the warmer cpu temps for IVB vs SNB. Yeah, it runs warmer due to the smaller die size and the assembly method (cheap thermal paste instead of solder reflow). They only people affected by this are over-clockers. Stock clocks, or even over-clocking without over-volting with a decent cooler won't be affected.

The real negative to getting an IVB CPU now is that the mobo firmware/bios/drivers are all still being updated on a regular basis and prices may be a tad higher for CPUs and mobos now then they will be in a few months when supply increases. So, getting a SNB CPU and putting it on an IVB mobo doesn't lower your risk of having to deal with firmware updates.


I just can't imagine it using more than 8GB, really. Do you know someone with a DAW setup? You could program an example case and then look at Windows Task Mgr to see how much RAM is being used. Maybe Potsy can comment on this.


Somewhere around 120W (depending on the number of drives). But, there aren't any 120W ATX PSUs. So, you look for a PSU that will be silent for your load, is built well, has decent efficiency at idle and your load power, and meets your budget. The bottom seems to be in the 400W range.

It's probably quiet enough. "Silent" is relative. How quiet is your environment/how quiet are the other PC components/etc...as long as the sum of the components is quieter than your environment, then to you it's "silent". MikeC can test down to 10dBA @ 1m because he built an anechoic chamber. Chances are, even if you are in a well built recording studio, your ambient is closer to 15-20dBA.. So, while it's moving, it won't be silent, but it'll be below your ambient, so you won't hear it. [/quote]

Yep.

Another PSU option is the mCubed 280w external. I think mCubed products don't get much of a run here because they're not widely distributed in the US but for you in the Eurozone they're a good option. I have been using the EF28 psu for a few years and it hasn't let me down: EF28 link

Yes, I also thought that most of the IVB CPU problems were of temporary nature. But could you elaborate more on getting a SNB CPU and an IVB mobo and the firmware problems? Would you then recommend some other mobo if I get a SNB CPU?


I have frequently read virtual instrument forums. The DAW software will support hyperthreading. 8 GB might be enough even in orchestral pieces with many instruments, but if you start blending instruments from several libraries, adding reverb and other stuff, you will be thankful if you have that extra RAM. 16 GB is the least you want to have for orchestral stuff when buying a new system, especially when the difference in price is not that great.


OK, sorry for dumb question, that is what I wanted to have confirmed. I can then take any good PSU without fearing whether the power will suffice or not.

I don't mean to be a Chicken Little...just that replacing the IVB CPU with a SNB CPU and still using a recently released motherboard doesn't remove the risk of having to deal with motherboard firmware/driver "fixes". It just removes the risk of there being IVB CPU problems. It's a new board and will go through the usual spate of updates to tune/tweak the memory controller, ethernet, audio, etc.. that every single new motherboard goes through in it's first few months after introduction. I haven't heard of any IVB+mobo horror stories, yet - just the overclockers and the thermal stuff.

A month ago, the conservative answer would have been: build a SNB system. In a month or two, the conservative answer would be build an IVB system. Today, it's go ahead and build an IVB system, but you probably will do a couple of BIOS/firmware updates over the summer.

If it were enough cheap where you live, you may look at the Enermax Pro80+ 350W (for an up to 150W DC power consumption).
I don't know anything overall better for the price (see above) as OOBE.
It's not perfectly suitable for using in large towers (or in too much cramped spaces).
On the contrary, if money is no object, well, there's plentyful of clearly better choices (already mentioned).

OK, which IVB CPU would you then recommend to replace i7 2600K in my build? Overclocking is not important. Should I obtain 3rd party thermal paste for it (as someone had done and got good results) or is it too risky?

i7-3770.


If you are referring to the Japanese enthusiast that removed the heatspreader and replaced the Intel thermal paste with another, I can't recommend doing that. More forceful rejoinders come to mind and aren't appropriate for this forum

I'm also interested in building a DAW that is focused on doing large orchestral mockups and I'm researching what components I will need. What should I consider to be the minimum CPU for such a build?

Minimum? i5-3450 3.1GHz ($200). But, for $10 more you can get the i5-3550 3.3GHz.

If your s/w supports hyperthreading, and you want to spend $320, get the i7-3770.

Did people fail at building usable DAW or doing "large orchestral mockups" until a couple of months ago? Of course not. Intel's CPU releases don't change requirements.

Thanks for all your help, I think I will take the i7-3770 CPU as there is almost no price difference between i7-3770 Tray and the i7-2600K. Unfortunately the 20€ assembly would be sans CPU cooler so I will bite the bullet and try doing it myself and hope it goes fine. Perhaps I can then ask you guys for some advice on fine-tuning once I've gotten that far. Cheers!

If they will build you the system and install Windows with updates and drivers... you could pay 20euro and get the stock Intel cooler (almost same price as tray I think). Then you'd just have to order a CPU heatsink of choice and install it.

*me, personally - I would much rather build the system myself and install the OS and programs. Because it's fun and I don't trust anyone else to do it

They would not install Windows and updates for that price. And installing Scythe Mugen 3 would be impossible without removing the motherboard from the case because I would need to access its backside.

On some other forum I read that if I have active fans in the case anyway then why bother having a passive PSU as I could have a cheaper and also very quiet active PSU in the 50 euro range. Another person suggested that the system would be more quiet if an active PSU were placed in the top position and there were no case fans. What do you think? There were also some mixed opinions as to the temperatures inside a case with noise absorbing material. Should I be concerned of this?

Check twice: it's not ideal, but it's fairly doable.




IMHO you should get rid of all those rather shallow opinions.
Any PSU with similar performance will cost a comparable amount of money, and usually a top mounting position is not ideal to calm down a PSU fan.
About the other thoughts, as you quoted them, they look like mainly groundless.

Quiet is relative to the user and the PC's environment. Chances are, the people here take it a bit further than on other forums. Do you need a passive PSU? probably not. Will it work well for your application? Yes. Currently, a PSU designed well with quality components that is inaudible in a quiet environment, costs somewhere above $100. Or, you can get something like the Antec EA380 for <$50 and it's fan will be kinda quiet but audible at your workloads. You can even void the warranty and do a fan swap for $10-15 and turn it into an inaudible PSU.

Active case fans: The whole purpose of getting the Asus ATX mobo is for the fan control
The argument is without merit.

It really comes down to what is quiet enough for you. It may be a cheaper PSU is quiet enough. Don't know until you try it, eh? You can plan a build down to the last fan..and eventually you just have to build it and then tweak stuff until it meets your need.

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On another forum someone commented that decreasing the speed of the fans does make the system more quiet but that it might not be the optimal solution to guarantee enough airflow. He had tested various settings with the FD R3 case and gotten the best results by adding a 120mm 500rpm Scythe Slip Stream rear fan and a Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPRO PK-1 top fan. That could be an idea for tweaking. But it's easy to obtain those fans later if needed.

One more question: Do you see any reason why a shouldn't take a cheaper H77 mobo instead of a Z77 as overclocking is not needed? Again, perhaps the lack of Fan Xpert 2 will be a problem...

Another forum member commented on another thread that the primary difference between Xpert2 and Xpert+ was Xpert2 allowed fans to be turned off. While nice, if you have decent fans, they can be turned down to inaudible.

You can downsize to the H77.