EDIT: thread has been moved...

anyway, Shuriken 2 rev. B looks pretty good with a 25mm fan and a good choice for those who don't want to use Noctua

No, they are not big - S1155/1156 boards have mostly "wrong layouts". Putting the CPU socket right next to the PCI-E and memory slots is the worst decision ever. Look at P8Z77-I CPU socket placement - NH-L12 fits without any clearance issues with the PCI-E slot (memory slot clearance issues are inevitable when you have only 17cm place, 2-3cm must go away for RAM modules, another 2cm for connectors at back and you are already down to 12-13cm.

I'd say most heatsinks have the wrong layout. Heatsinks are made for motherboards, not the other way around.
When you have to fit two chips (CPU + PCH) into a small area you can't expect one of them to be in the center, just like on larger boards. I'm pretty sure the Asus P8Z77-I will remain the exception here because of the separate VRM board.

The huge Thermalright AXP-140 fits mini-ITX boards with the socket close to the PCIe and the RAM without obstructing them, and that HS is three years old. It's taller than the SBS2 though.
Noctua have made asymmetric versions of the L12 and showed them on Computex this year. It's only Scythe who doesn't get it.

The SBS2 is only comparable with the NH-L12 when the latter only have the lower fan mounted (=92 mm on mini-ITX), and that makes the SBS2 the better one.

Heatsinks are not made for motherboards, heatsinks are made with CPU safe-zone size specifications in mind. And often your CPU heatsink lives through many generations - have you seen Scythe Ninja on Socket 1155 ?

VRM board would push your CPU socket towards PCI-E socket by maybe 0,5-1cm. Keep in mind that the VRM on P8Z77-I Deluxe is equal to any standard mATX or ATX motherboard - hell, the board has 8-pin CPU power connector to start with ! A H61 board doesn't need 10-phase VRM system. The area where the VRM board is soldered in is more than enough for the whole VRM system for any lower end board.

To be honest - the biggest difference between majority of the S1155 boards versus P8Z77-I is that in case of P8Z77-I the chipset is between the CPU socket and PCI-E slot, while with any other board the chipset is on the other side.

If you want to see other examples where it was done - Zotac managed to put GT430 on the board as well, true, they pushed the CPU socket to the opposite extreme : http://www.zotac.com/index.php?page=sho ... 59&lang=em

The fact is - CPU socket location in the center or close to it is doable (most of the current S1155 boards don't have big VRM, so no need for daughterboard like on the P8Z77-I), but motherboard manufacturers are "lazy" and they probably reuse the "reference Intel design". Look how they are nearly exactly the same across all manufacturers. Gigabyte H61 ITX board versus Asrock Z68 ITX board vs Intel H67 ITX board versus Asus H67 ITX board - good luck finding differences in PCI-E slot, memory slot, CPU socket, chipset location and power connector locations.



The issue with AXP-140 is that it is next to impossible to find anywhere (at least in Europe). It's nice that cooler which is usable on these boards exists, but what can you do when it is impossible to buy ?

Now you're just splitting hairs. Remember, board makers still want to sell boards.

Well it wasn't an issue for you to bring up the Ninja, which really is impossible to find.

My point wasn't about availability, I was just saying that the AXP-140 fits just fine even though it's older and much larger. Still, three years later, Scythe still makes symmetrical heatsinks that doesn't fit.

I have an ASRock Z77E-ITX here waiting for CPU and RAM. Neither the NH-L12 nor the SBS2 fits, but the AXP-140 does, and that's what I will buy.

My post got deleted then? I spotted typo...


Including the fan, it measures 80 x 34 x 98 mm

At 38 mm tall, the Vanxie is incredibly short.

The Vanxie has almost no space for the air to flow away underneath it -- this is the first rule of shifting air with fans -- the air has to be close to free-flowing for the whole path. Talk about static pressure...

Since I see the fans and layouts have already been picked apart, all I can say is I'm pleasantly surprised by Scythe finally moving to more secure fastening systems, even if the process looks a bit awkward. I'm definitely picking a small(er) cooler for my next rig, as my use and contemporary CPUs certainly allow it.

What about the Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe Mini-ITX motherboard and the Scythe Big Shuriken 2 RevB? Will that combination work without covering the PCI-E slot?

Found it myself. Yes, it seems to work ok without covering the PCI-E slot, see:

http://vimeo.com/43560652

NH-L12 fits without covering the PCI-E slot, and NH-L12 is bigger. So Big Shuriken 2 should fit fine as well.

I'm considering building a system based on an ASUS P8Z77-I Deluxe Mini-ITX motherboard and an Intel 3570K CPU, with a Scythe Big Shuriken 2 RevB CPU cooler. To make it more silent I intend to replace the Scythe Big Shuriken 2 RevB stock fan with a 120x120x25 mm fan that is more silent. The system will probably not be under heavy load most of the time, so it's important that the system is silent when idle (but it should also be as quiet as possible under load too of course).

I have some questions regarding this:

1. Are PWM fans more noisy at the same speed compared to fans where you regulate the speed by changing the voltage directly? I've heard PWM fans can make a clicking sound, is that true?

2. Can the ASUS P8Z77-I motherboard do temperature regulated fan speed control of non-PWM fans too (by regulating the voltage to the fan)? If so, is it preferred to use a non-PWM fan and regulate it that way?

3. What are the basic pros vs cons of using PWM vs non-PWM fans (assuming the speed can be regulated on both)?

4. Some fans I'm considering are: Noctua NF-F12, Noctua NF-P12 (both PWM and non-PWM), Scythe Gentle Typhoon (non-PWM?), Scythe Slipstream (PWM?), Nexus Real Silent (non-PWM). Which of those do you think is best suited in my case? Or would you rather suggest another alternative?

I can partly answer question number 3:

PWM fans are usually more expensive, and many mobo's can only control 3-pin fans along with 1 single PWM fan (meant for the CPU fan).

1) The ticking (or "knocking", if it's really bad) was mostly caused by early, poor implementations of the scheme and crappy controllers. I recently ran into a case here on the forums where a Sunbeamtech controller reading from PWM signal was making the analog fans it was driving knock. Today I would bet on it being as safe to get a PWM fan as it is to get an analog-control fan.

2) If it features Fan Xpert+ or Xpert 2 then most likely the case fan headers control both 3-pin and 4-pin fans, CPU fan header 4-pin only. Search around, maybe someone has one. For fan preference see above.

3) Two differences I can think of: one PWM signal can easily be used to drive many PWM fans with the appropriate wiring (splitter cable), and since PWM uses a constant 12V chopped up, it should get fans spinning more reliably. Any electrical concerns regarding either control scheme you'll just have to trust the maker to sort out. Other than that, dead even as far as I'm concerned.

4) If you want a heatsink fan, go for pressure and robust bearings. I would pick the Gentle Typhoon from that list, based on the latest SPCR review, where it provided the best cooling at very low volume, and the fact that it features DBB, as in double ball bearings. Pick the 800 RPM model and run with static RPM, that way you can even stick it in the CPU_Fan header that might only be able to control 4-pin PWM fans! (this is what I do with my Noctua)

You can find my rig in my signature. I use the M PRO of that Asus series and would have probably gotten a small heatsink had the review not come out just after I bought the parts. Next time!

PS. I just reread the review this thread is for, and the Shuriken 2B has VERY tight fin spacing, so you definitely want a strong fan with good pressure qualities for it. The test data suggests a standard 25 mm 120 mm fan can provide adequate cooling for a CPU like the 3570K even at 800 RPM, but I would not risk it in prolonged gaming sessions for example - if this is on the menu, go for an adjustable one. If you want analog adjustment, tap a case fan header and leave the CPU fan one on ignore in BIOS (as MikeC is fond of instructing).

PPS. Intel's i5-3570K has a TDP of 77 W (link), whereas the test platform's i5-2400 has a TDP of 95 W (link) and is overclocked AND overvolted. What can cool the test platform can cool the i5-3570K at stock, no question.

Das_Saunamies & kuzzia:

Many thanks for the info!

Regarding the Gentle Typhoon, why would you want to run it at static 800 RPM instead of having the speed temperature regulated? I've heard that fans often have some specific RPM speeds where they produce a spike of higher noise levels - is that why you are suggesting I should run it at static speed?

Also, even if the system will not be under heavy load most of the time, I still want to play it safe so it must be able to handle the "worst case". That means it should be able to run CPU temperature stress test programs like Orthos Prime and SuperPi that max out the CPU temperatures, without the CPU reaching uncomfortable temperatures. Do you think the 800 RPM version of the Gentle Typhoon be able to handle that with a 3570K?

Otherwise, you suggested I should go for an adjustable fan (I suppose you mean a PWM fan?). If so, do you have any suggestion which PWM fan to choose? And why not go with a higher RPM version of the Gentle Typhoon, and have the motherboard temperature regulate the speed by changing the voltage?

I recommend a low RPM model at static (near-maximum) RPM because the fan will have better reliability for startup that way (more drive) and will require zero configuration or control. The first is especially important for a heatsink fan in my mind, and the latter can't hurt. The fact that many low-RPM models are the quietest in their range when operated at SPCR-type levels is a plus.

To prepare for worst case scenarios, you'd want a bigger heatsink. Small 'sinks like this are a measured response to a carefully considered setup. The bigger heatsinks are more forgiving. Do I believe the 800 RPM Scythe Gentle Typhoon would be up to the task with the Big Shuriken 2 Rev.B? Yes I do. Do I have anything to back this up, besides my limited personal experience and knowledge and the data in the review that suggests this is doable, albeit with high-ish (around 60 °C in the case of the overclocked and overvolted 95 W TDP i5-2400 vs your stock 77 W i5-3570K) temperatures? No. You'll want to find a torture test if you're actually looking to have that kind of use.

When I say adjustable, I mean adjustable: any fan that has a larger range of RPM and hence CFM it can work in. If you read the SPCR review of the Gentle Typhoons, you'll find out what the caveat is I'm talking about; the model(s) >800 RPM had ugly characteristics when slowed down. The Nexus is an affordable reference, and even though it sports just +200 RPM over the GT I recommend, sometimes that's all it takes.

I don't think many people would be unhappy with the results from the P8Z77-I Deluxe BIOS fan controls and Big Shuriken 2/full size 120mm fan combination if used with PWM fans like the Noctua NF-F12, Noctua NF-P12 PWM and the Scythe Slipstream SY1225SL12LM-P PWM. That's because setting the BIOS to Silent mode with this group of fans would typically produce idle speeds of around 400 rpm, effectively inaudible.

Agreed. In fact, 400rpm is generally overkill for low noise. Anything <700rpm in a smooth & quiet fan is generally inaudible when the damping effect of a good case walls and typical distance to user are considered. I'm doing the 550rpm tests only for the sake of "tradition" -- it is the speed of the Nexus 120 at 5V, which is sometimes not quite enough cooling when a CPU is at full load. If I was starting fan testing from scratch today, I'd make 700 or 650rpm the lowest speed.

Very nicely put! -- But the entire post is wise.

I'm not sure I follow. Could you please clarify that?

But the SPCR review of the Big Shuriken 2 Rev.B used a test setup with an Intel Core i5-2400 @ 95W TDP, which also was overclocked. And according to the review "Load testing was accomplished using Prime95 to stress the processor". So in that case, should my setup with an Intel Core i5-3570K @ 77W TDP non-overlocked really be any problem (even when running torture test programs like Prime95/SuperPi/...) if the same CPU heatsink is used (and even "improved" with a full 120x120x25 mm fan as discussed previously)? Would a bigger heatsink really be needed? I'd like to avoid that due to computer case size limitations...

So do you mean that such a PWM fan is that preferred over e.g. a Scythe Gentle Typhoon running at 800 RPM static speed as suggested by Das_Saunamies?

More RPM means more voltage (or more frequent chunks of 12V in case of PWM), which means stronger drive of the fan motor, and hence a more reliable start. I have had one fan starting failure and it cost me a GPU. Never again.

As I've said, my take on cooling in this case is based on the review this discussion thread is about, and the data in the review to me suggests that cooling is doable with the Shuriken 2 and an 800 RPM Gentle Typhoon.

If you haven't read the review in detail, let me summarise some key points: the load stress test method is to run Prime95 and have the temperature remain constant for 10 minutes to take a reading - this is about as heavy as it gets, though it is not a real, prolonged torture test, only a practical simulation. The Shuriken 2, with the reference Nexus fan at or around 800 RPM, managed a rise of 39 °C over ambient, meaning 62 °C total (ambient 23). Considering that the test rig uses a considerably hotter processor than the i5-3570K, this should leave the i5-3570K at temperatures below 60 °C in an identical test: hot, but by no means dangerous, as the TCase would be 67.4 °C.

However, situations are never identical, so as setups differ, you have to take into consideration how that setup is built, where it will be used and what will realistically be the primary use. A small cooler in a typical scenario is not the best choice for folding (100 % load all day), but a good small cooler can definitely take spike loads and even high-but-non-torture loads like gaming, all without needing a hi-RPM fan.

PS. I've just invoked the SPCR mages running Folding@home with a bottlecap for a cooler using spatial rift-vortex fans and the void of space, haven't I...

In my opinion its a better fit for the circumstances you have outlined, that is you plan to to use the Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe, you want a silent idle and the system will not be under heavy load most of the time. The Silent mode in the Asus motherboard BIOS not only holds the PWM fan to minimal speeds up to a CPU temperature of around 40C, but will also increase fan speeds automatically once the CPU heats up beyond that point. The increase in CPU temperature can come from higher ambient temperatures or greater system load or both. So in everday use you would be unlikely to see fan idle speeds anywhere near 800 rpm but the Silent profile setting can cope on those occasions when the CPU is running hotter than normal for whatever reason.

Hi, just a quick note about fan control systems. [I think I'm correct in what I'm about to explain but...]

In the beginning there were only 3 pin (or 2 pin, no rpm monitoring) fans. You could control the speed of the fan by changing the voltage supplied to it, this was originally done with "5v trick" or "7v trick" or a resistor. Resistor might be a fixed one in a wire or a variable one, like in a fan controller. All this was good, the fan a nice constant even voltage and ran smoothly at the desired speed.

Then motherboard manufactures started to implement fan control of the on-board headers. They did this using a PWM scheme, as it's cheaper and easier than producing a true variable DC output. What happens is the motherboard outputs 12V pulses, the % of on to off determines how fast the fan spins. Imagine a square wave and that's what the fan is getting, either nothing or 12v in rapid pulses. Early implementations of this were not refined and the fans then available not designed with it in mind so this "pulsing drive" method could introduce ticking and noise in to the fan due to it's inherently non-smooth nature. It could also occasionally cause issues with the rpm signal too.

All of this I believe to be mostly moot now, motherboards have better designs and fans may be designed to cope with it better too.

Now we have 4 pin PWM. This is completely different to 3 pin PWM. Only the 4th PWM wire has a variable signal. The fan is fed a constant 12v by the motherboard (in the first 2 wires, hence why a 3 pin fan on 4 pin header will run full speed no matter the PWM setting) The speed control for a PWM fan is in the fan itself! It's the circuits in the fan's motor itself that take the 4th wire PWM signal and use that to control how fast the fan spins. How they do it I'm not sure, I suppose it could be an internal "chopping up" of the 12v supply like in 3 pin PWM. However there are a couple of important points; there should never be a problem with a PWM fan starting, it's fed 12v all the time and its internal logic will know what the minimum speed it can support is. PWM fans vary in how they react to extremely low % signals. I think in all cases where there is no PWM signal they will run full speed. Most PWM fans have a minimum speed in the 25~40% range, i.e. sending a lower speed signal won't make any differenced to the fan's speed. In case of 0% signal (which is different to no signal) some fans will stop altogether but most continue at their minimum speed.

This minimum speed can be set too high for very quiet operation, like the Zalman 9500AT I had, its 92mm fan would only go down to 1300rpm which was still noisy. I discovered that by adding a variable resistor (Zalman fanmate in this case) to the fans power supply wires I could adjust the working range of the fan so 30-100% PWM went from loud 1300~2800rpm to a more reasonable 800~2000rpm.

Regards, Seb

Thanks Seb, a good summary and reminder - especially the part about fans "controlling themselves". I will, however, forever remain paranoid about startup because of that one fateful day.

Thanks for all the detailed info! Some questions about temperature regulated fans:

1. Isn't there a drawback to regulating the fan speed since that the fans often have some specific speeds at which they have a "peak noise"? If so, can that be avoided e.g. by configuring the fan control to avoid setting the speed to those "bad peak noise" frequencies?

2. Does temperature regulated fan speed control require you to have some software running in the background once the OS has booted up? Or do you only need the "fan control software" (e.g. ASUS Fan Expert) to configure a "fan control profile" (i.e. how the fan shall be regulated), and then the BIOS/motherboard can control the fan speed by itself?

I am not sure you could say that fans often have issues at specific speeds. Some fans have issues at specific speeds, so the issue is best addressed by being careful about which fans you select. In this respect the individual fan reviews, cpu cooler reviews and fan roundups by SPCR are likely to be your best source of information. For example the Scythe SY1225SL12LM-P was tested as part of the Mugen 2 CPU cooler review and the detailed information about this fan is here http://www.silentpcreview.com/article961-page5.html.

Asus motherboards have BIOS fan controls which allow a choice of Silent, Standard and Turbo profiles. There is also a manual mode. These BIOS settings operate at bootup, require no additional software and so will work with any operating system. Asus supply Fan Xpert which runs under Windows only and supplements the BIOS controls. It allows more options and if you want to set your own profile it is easier to do it with Fan Xpert that the manual mode in the BIOS. All versions of Fan Xpert features a fan calibration tool and a graphic display of the current fan profile.

Is Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe the only Mini-ITX motherboard on which the Big Shuriken 2 Rev.B CPU cooler can be used without covering the PCI-E slot?

Does the Big Shuriken cover any memory slots on the ASUS P8Z77-M Pro?