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 Post subject: new build soon
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Location: CA, USA
GIGABYTE GA-Q77M-D2H (chosen partly for its hackintoshability)
Intel Core i5 3570K
Scythe Mugen 3
Crucial or Kingston 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3 1600
Crucial M4 128GB SSD
2x Samsung HD502HI (already own these)
SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze
Fractal Design Define Mini
Scythe SY1225SL12M 120mm "Slipstream" Case Fan
LITE-ON USB 2.0 8X External DVD eTAU208-46

Nothing is set in stone. Open to suggestions/alternatives on anything.
Will the external optical drive work ok for installing OS, software, etc. ?
That Gigabyte board has zero user feedback on NewEgg, so choosing it is against my nature. :-)

Edit: Just to clarify, the OS will be primarily Windows, but with a possibility of Mac OS at some point.

Also, I'm not decided on the RAM yet. Does the CAS latency matter if it is 11, 10, or 9?


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:51 am 
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What are your apps? That'll help fine tune the build.

If no graphics card planned, you can easily lower the PSU wattage and get better idle/load efficiency. If you want the ATX form factor, drop down to the S12II 380B or 430B. Newegg is running a 15% off sale for Seasonic atm.

RAM: CAS latency isn't a huge deal for IVB. Here's an X-Bit Labs article on RAM speed/timing. Saw a nice review on this DDR3LP Samsung RAM.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Are you going to replace the stock fans or are you adding Slipstreams on top of the stock fans?

Otherwise, nice picks.

I wouldn't worry too much about compatibility between Win7 and the external optical drive. I have experienced no issues with my external optical drive (also from LG)

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Thanks CA_Steve,

My apps are Reaper (DAW), Finale, and Sibelius.

I plan to use integrated graphics.

I actually was originally going to go with the Seasonic S12II 430W, but then at the last minute before I posted, I changed to the 520W. :-)
I might be adding a second SSD and a fourth fan, so I was concerned about having enough power for the two HDDs and two SSDs plus four fans. But if you think I can get more efficiency out of one of the lower watt versions, then I'll go for it. (same promo applies to all the S12II PSUs on NewEgg until August 13th)


Last edited by toronado455 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:07 pm 
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kuzzia wrote:
Are you going to replace the stock fans or are you adding Slipstreams on top of the stock fans?

Otherwise, nice picks.

I wouldn't worry too much about compatibility between Win7 and the external optical drive. I have experienced no issues with my external optical drive (also from LG)


Thanks. The Scythe fans are in addition to the Fractal fans. The plan is to have either one or two front panel intake fans, another intake fan in the case floor position next to the PSU, and one exhaust fan in the usual position in the upper back near the CPU. Too many fans? :-)

Also which Slipstream should I get? There are five different ones listed on NewEgg ranging from 500 RPM to 1900 RPM. I currently own one of the SY1225SL12M 1200 RPM units that I use in another system connected to a fan speed controller which is inaudible in that system. Since I've been happy with that, I was just going to get another one of those.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:56 pm 
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If you're not going to use a video card, then two fans will be more than enough. If you intend to OC then one or two fans should be enough for your needs, but if not, then one case fan should do. I don't even think the CPU cooler would need help in that case, but the best way to find out is to experiment with the fan setup.

If you don't mind the 1200 rpm version undervolted at say, 5 V. Then go for it. I personally prefer the 800 rpm version because the 1200 rpm at 5 V is just audible (and I require total silence). Perhaps you should consider the 800 rpm. If you might replace some components in your system then perhaps the 1200 rpm fan could become audible for you. And in the case you need more airflow, than 800 rpm moves quite a lot of air while staying tolerably quiet.

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Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I don't see your load power approaching 150W DC, unless you OC/Overvolt.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:17 pm 
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kuzzia wrote:
If you're not going to use a video card, then two fans will be more than enough. If you intend to OC then one or two fans should be enough for your needs, but if not, then one case fan should do. I don't even think the CPU cooler would need help in that case, but the best way to find out is to experiment with the fan setup.

If you don't mind the 1200 rpm version undervolted at say, 5 V. Then go for it. I personally prefer the 800 rpm version because the 1200 rpm at 5 V is just audible (and I require total silence). Perhaps you should consider the 800 rpm. If you might replace some components in your system then perhaps the 1200 rpm fan could become audible for you. And in the case you need more airflow, than 800 rpm moves quite a lot of air while staying tolerably quiet.


Thanks kuzzia. My concern is not so much for cooling. My desire is to minimize dust cleaning duties. Obviously I'll need to experiment once I get the new case, but my theory is that if I leave any filtered intake fan placement unused (empty) then dust will collect there in an uncontrolled fashion (dust may start to collect on the inside of the filter instead of the outside). So my idea is to fill all of them with slow turning fans. Alternatively, I could block some of them off.

Do all the Slipstreams start reliably at 5V? If so, does that mean that I could run even a 500RPM unit at 5V just to get some minimal airflow at that placement so as to accomplish my goal?


Last edited by toronado455 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:21 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I don't see your load power approaching 150W DC, unless you OC/Overvolt.


Thank you. I guess I'll go for the 430W then, unless I'll see significant efficiency gains from 380W over the 430W.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:14 pm 
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toronado455 wrote:
Do all the Slipstreams start reliably at 5V? If so, does that mean that I could run even a 500RPM unit at 5V just to get some minimal airflow at that placement so as to accomplish my goal?


The 500 rpm version doesn't, but the 800 rpm version does start at 5V according to both the SPCR review and personal experience (I have 4 at the moment).

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Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:50 pm 
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kuzzia wrote:
The 500 rpm version doesn't, but the 800 rpm version does start at 5V according to both the SPCR review and personal experience (I have 4 at the moment).
Thanks, I'll definitely consider the 800 RPM unit.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:00 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I don't see your load power approaching 150W DC, unless you OC/Overvolt.
Leaning toward the 380B. Will it run any cooler than the 430B?

Was looking through the user guide for the Gigabyte board to check for any specific instructions regarding PSU and found this note/disclaimer:
Code:
To meet expansion requirements, it is recommended that a power supply that can withstand high power consumption be used (500W or greater). If a power supply is used that does not provide the required power, the result can lead to an unstable or unbootable system.
I assume I can safely ignore that generic warning because my stated system doesn't require that much power?


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:28 am 
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toronado455 wrote:
Leaning toward the 380B. Will it run any cooler than the 430B?

It's in the too-small-to-matter range :)

Was looking through the user guide for the Gigabyte board to check for any specific instructions regarding PSU and found this note/disclaimer:
Code:
To meet expansion requirements, it is recommended that a power supply that can withstand high power consumption be used (500W or greater). If a power supply is used that does not provide the required power, the result can lead to an unstable or unbootable system.
I assume I can safely ignore that generic warning because my stated system doesn't require that much power?[/quote]

Yes.

If you think that sometime in the future you'll add a video card for gaming, then get the 430. If not, the 380 is fine.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Thanks again. I'm still undecided on the RAM and PSU.

First the RAM...

CL 11 $80.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820239291

CL 10 $97.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820104302

CL 9 #139.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820104304

Appears you are paying premiums for the lower latency and heat spreaders. I don't plan to overclock the RAM so I don't need the heat spreaders. Normally I'd just get the value RAM, but I don't know enough about CL to know if CL 11 would be OK for my applications.

------------------------------------------

On the PSU...

One NewEgg user review of the 430 said:
Code:
I got the lowest rated PSU as practical to make sure it would be efficient at idle draw (60W for my i7-860 + Radeon 5850) but after buying I was surprised to see that the 520W Seasonic S12II 520 Bronze is actually more efficient at low loads! (See XBitLabs review for reference.)

I believe this is the Xbit review he's talking about:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cases/ ... dup_2.html

Here are their charts:
Image
Image
Apparently they measured an uptick in efficiency on the 520 in the 75 to 50 watt range. At 150W they seem to be about even.

I also noticed that apparently they measured lower fan speeds on the 520 at levels below about 225W, although temps seem to rise slower on the 420:
Image
Image

Not sure what to make of that particular user's comments or the Xbit reviews.

I also noticed that the ADDA fan model numbers are slightly different. The SPCR review of the 380 shows AD1212MB-A71GL, and the units tested by Xbit are AD1212MB-A70GL. (Though the Xbit test of the M12 did have the A71GL fan.)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Let me throw another option in. By a better PSU like the x560. Fan doesn't start until 50% power or so, has 82% efficiency at 50W and high 80's for your load. :D Or get the x460 fanless. I prefer the former - has the same guts. Or, the Kingwin LZP-550 platinum for ~85% @ 50W and 90+ at your load.

RAM: I don't have a feel for your apps and whether tighter timings really matter that much. X-Bit Labs thinks timing differences are minor vs a slight RAM clock speed bump. I will add - check the clearance on the Mugen 3 if you do go with heatspreader RAM.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:36 pm 
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In my personal experience:

The difference between CLxx and CLyy are certainly measurable in artificial benchmarks. But keep in mind, the average user needs a bump of total system performance around 15-25% to realise any speed difference in 2D desktop use. While overclocking, the difference gets more important.

TLDR; Average use, no extrem oc: Get those rams that suit your board and your budget. The difference is most likely not have any impact.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:03 am 
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If your mobo works well with 4 sticks of RAM, Samsung makes some nice stuff for a nice price. You could get 4x4GB.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:54 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
If your mobo works well with 4 sticks of RAM, Samsung makes some nice stuff for a nice price. You could get 4x4GB.

Interesting. Thanks. I like the low profile on those. Only downside is it would limit my total RAM to 16GB if I got 4 sticks of 4GB.
The Gigabyte board calls for 1.5v RAM, and those are 1.35v so would that be a problem?


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:19 am 
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IVB works fine with 1.35V memory.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:06 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I will add - check the clearance on the Mugen 3 if you do go with heatspreader RAM.

When you say "heatspreader RAM" you're referring to RAM with heatspreaders that stick up higher than the RAM stick PCB right? I mean, will a Mugen 3 clear normal height RAM (that isn't low profile like the Samsung you linked) such as this? (The picture is small on the Sythe product page, but it looks like they show it installed over normal-height ram with the fan clearing it without any problem.)

CA_Steve wrote:
Let me throw another option in. By a better PSU like the x560. Fan doesn't start until 50% power or so, has 82% efficiency at 50W and high 80's for your load. :D Or get the x460 fanless. I prefer the former - has the same guts. Or, the Kingwin LZP-550 platinum for ~85% @ 50W and 90+ at your load.

Thanks again. Just to put another wrinkle in the discussion (and hopefully iron it out), I currently have an older Seasonic. It's the S12-500W 500HT-F3BLR from 2005. Would the new S12II 430 (or 520) Bronze at least be a step up from the older Seasonic, or not?


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:33 pm 
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toronado455 wrote:
When you say "heatspreader RAM" you're referring to RAM with heatspreaders that stick up higher than the RAM stick PCB right?

yes.

toronado455 wrote:
I mean, will a Mugen 3 clear normal height RAM

X-bit labs review shows 48mm clearance from mobo to bottom of heatsink fins. So, you need to know how tall the RAM will be when it sits in the socket. FYI, most memory mfgr sites will tell you how tall their RAM is. For example: Corsair: 32mm for low profile, 52.5mm for Vengeance, and 54mm for Dominator.

toronado455 wrote:
I currently have an older Seasonic. It's the S12-500W 500HT-F3BLR from 2005. Would the new S12II 430 (or 520) Bronze at least be a step up from the older Seasonic, or not?

Maybe. Efficiency differences probably not noticable. Might use less power when in sleep/off as newer designs meet newer regulations. Seems a waste of $ if the current PSU meets your needs.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:15 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
toronado455 wrote:
I currently have an older Seasonic. It's the S12-500W 500HT-F3BLR from 2005. Would the new S12II 430 (or 520) Bronze at least be a step up from the older Seasonic, or not?

Maybe. Efficiency differences probably not noticable. Might use less power when in sleep/off as newer designs meet newer regulations. Seems a waste of $ if the current PSU meets your needs.


I've decided I'm not going to use the old S12 as I'm using it in another system. And I think I might want something that is a step up from the S12II. I'm currently (no pun) leaning toward the Cooler Master Silent Pro M600.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:29 pm 
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The Cooler Master Silent Pro M600 is just another 80+ Bronze PSU. I wouldn't spend $100 on a 80+ Bronze PSU. Wait a bit and Ralphshould be reporting in on the GS 360 Gold.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:21 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
The Cooler Master Silent Pro M600 is just another 80+ Bronze PSU. I wouldn't spend $100 on a 80+ Bronze PSU. Wait a bit and Ralphshould be reporting in on the GS 360 Gold.


The G-series is interesting. However it is tough to believe they can sell a 80 PLUS GOLD for $60 without making some sort of sacrifice in the quality. My impression of the S12II is that quality has suffered a decline from the original S12. I would not mind spending $100 if it buys higher quality. Though I'm not certain the Cooler Master is any better.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Update:
I've made a few changes from the original build list, and got the following items instead:
Case: Silverstone PS07 (white)
Logicboard: GIGABYTE H77M-D3H

I got the Kingston KVR16N11K2/16 RAM. Looks like the price as dropped $5 since I got it. Oh, well. No big deal.

I got the S12II PSU but I'm not happy with that and I'm going to return it and get something else instead - probably the Cooler Master Silent Pro M600, or possibly the PC Power & Cooling MKIII 400W.

I still don't have the CPU yet. I'm waiting and hoping the Core i3-3225 will be available soon (hopefully at a reasonable price), otherwise I'll probably just get the i5-3570K as originally stated.

I got the Define Mini, but wasn't happy with it, so I returned it and got the PS07 which I like better. I realize some folks will consider that a step down, but I like this Silverstone better. I am planning on replacing the stock fans with Nexus D12SL fans, softmounted. I removed the drive cage and plan to suspend my spinning drives.

That leaves the CPU cooler, which I haven't decided on. I like the Mugen 3, but it's on the heavy side (826g - probably not a problem if the mounting system is good) and fairly tall at 158mm.
The reason I'm concerned about the height is the PS07 specs state only 165mm clearance for the CPU cooler. I haven't measured it myself, but I think only 7mm clearance might be tight - especially if I add any sound damping material to the side panel. I might try adding a vinyl tile (as SPCR member Belmonte mentioned doing in another thread), so that would only add a few mm and might work.

Should I be concerning myself with the height issue this much? Would something like a GeminII make sense in my build, or ???


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:51 pm 
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toronado455 wrote:
I got the S12II PSU but I'm not happy with that and I'm going to return it and get something else instead - probably the Cooler Master Silent Pro M600, or possibly the PC Power & Cooling MKIII 400W.
Just curious - what did you not like about it? I've only ever really heard good things about that PSU and was considering using one in my next build.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Falkon wrote:
toronado455 wrote:
I got the S12II PSU but I'm not happy with that and I'm going to return it and get something else instead - probably the Cooler Master Silent Pro M600, or possibly the PC Power & Cooling MKIII 400W.
Just curious - what did you not like about it? I've only ever really heard good things about that PSU and was considering using one in my next build.
I was hoping no one would ask. You'll probably think this is stupid, but I didn't like the paint job. I can't stand rough textured finishes on things - even on internal components that you wouldn't normally see. The finish was like sandpaper, and blotchy, and uneven as well. And compared to the finish on my original S12, I think it looks terrible. I'm kinda weird that way and a bit like Steve Jobs (if I can even make that comparison).

I'm considering the PC Power & Cooling MKIII as a replacement partly because I believe it has the same internals as the S12II but with a different finish which is similar to that of my case.

So for any normal person, I think the S12II is probably a good PSU.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:56 pm 
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toronado455 wrote:
That leaves the CPU cooler, which I haven't decided on. I like the Mugen 3, but it's on the heavy side (826g - probably not a problem if the mounting system is good) and fairly tall at 158mm.
The reason I'm concerned about the height is the PS07 specs state only 165mm clearance for the CPU cooler. I haven't measured it myself, but I think only 7mm clearance might be tight - especially if I add any sound damping material to the side panel. I might try adding a vinyl tile (as SPCR member Belmonte mentioned doing in another thread), so that would only add a few mm and might work.

Should I be concerning myself with the height issue this much? Would something like a GeminII make sense in my build, or ???


7 mm is definitely enough room between the side panel and the CPU cooler. I wouldn't worry about, especially considering that many people only have 1 or 2 mm of free space.

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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:42 pm 
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Location: CA, USA
kuzzia wrote:
7 mm is definitely enough room between the side panel and the CPU cooler. I wouldn't worry about, especially considering that many people only have 1 or 2 mm of free space.
Thanks kuzzia. I think I'll go for the Mugen. And one nice thing about the PS07 is it has that little heatsink support thingy on the case bottom, so I can always utilize that as an extra measure of support if the Mugen seems very heavy.


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 Post subject: Re: new build soon
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:25 am 
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Location: Denmark
I personally consider anything above 5 mm as a luxury, so there's really nothing to worry about. The Precision PS-07 design was meant for a CPU tower cooler (notice the straight air flow made by the lower front fan and the rear fan)

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