It is currently Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:24 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
I'm looking for a cheap-ish (<£25) top-down heatsink for an AM3 system I'm building for my brother. I've currently got a Minja on it http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7936/fanziptie1.jpg but as you can see, the fan blocks the two nearest RAM slots and I'd rather they were left clear in case he ever needs to use them, as he's not very technical and I wouldn't like to ask him to cut the fan zipties and then try and re-fit the fan himself (he lives hundreds of miles away so it's not practical for me to pop round and do stuff like that for him!) It would be almost impossible trying to fit new zipties with the board in the case (Aerocool VS-4 http://www.dinoxpc.com/blog/wp-content/ ... C06352.JPG ) anyway as there's barely any room between the top of the case and the heatsink and I certainly couldn't expect him to disconnect everything, remove the board, etc.

Of course, fans do die and need replacing anyway, so even if he never needs to use those two RAM slots, he may well need to change the fan at some point.

The current board is a Biostar TA790GXBE http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/int ... p?S_ID=419 but that seems to have died on me so I'm going to replace it with a DDR3 board. I think the spacing between the CPU socket and the RAM slots is pretty much universal on AM3/AM3+ boards, so I don't expect the new board to be any better in that respect.

I've got a Thermalright SI-128 on my Gigabyte board but even with that the heatpipes block the two nearest RAM slots, although that's less of a concern than the ease of changing the fan, so the SI-128 would help with that. I know I couldn't orientate it with the heatpipes towards the back of the case as they clashed with the rear exhaust fan then and there probably isn't room in the case to have the heatpipes above the board as shown here http://www.silentpcreview.com/article719-page4.html and even with the heatpipes pointing down they may well clash with the Northbridge heatsink (I'm not even sure if it's possible to orientate it in either of those directions on AM3/AM3+ sockets anyway).

So, apart from the likelihood of it still blocking two of the RAM slots, I could use the SI-128 I've got and get something else for my Gigabyte system (although obviously if I can find a reasonably priced SI-128 that would be easier than removing the one I've got) but perhaps there's some widely available top-down coolers that would be more suitable (i.e wouldn't block any RAM slots). The system only has a non-overclocked Athlon II X4 640, so it doesn't have to be an outstanding cooler but it needs to be able to cool very quietly (obviously moving from the Minja's 80mm fan to a 120mm or 140mm should help a lot, but that's not guaranteed if the cooler's lousy and the fan has to run at full speed ).

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
I found a few possibilities:

Coolermaster Vortex Plus: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/coolerma ... 40-939-754

Xigmatek HDT-D1284: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/xigmatek ... ler-quad-c

Thermalright SI-128: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/thermalr ... x2-opteron

I don't think the SI-128 comes with the mounting hardware needed for an AM3+ board though.

With all of them, I expect the heatpipes would block (i.e. make it impossible to insert/remove) one or two RAM slots unless they can be orientated with the heatpipes facing down towards the NB and I don't know if any of them allow that.

EDIT: Oh yeah and as I'll be shipping the PC to my brother I have to be mindful of the weight of the HSF and whether it's safe to ship it with that attached. Whilst it seems the HDT-D1284 fits on AM3 with the heatpipes facing down, which would be ideal, as I'm shipping it perhaps I'd be better off with something that's bolted on to the board, like the SI-128.

Ah, I see there's this mounting kit for the D1284 http://www.xigmatek.com/product.php?pro ... e=overview Unfortunately, Scan don't have it.

Hmm, that's a shame. Xigmatek have just told me the Crossfire ACK-ATI775 mounting kit is EOL.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
I seem to recall having a heatsink in the past that had a mounting bracket that screwed to the base of the heatsink and then was bolted onto two mounts on the board in place of the standard mount. I can't remember what make it was though and Thermalright don't seem to do anything like that.

Does anyone know what I'm thinking of? Perhaps that could be used with the HDT-D1284?

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 684
Location: Germany
Take a look at Arctic cooling alpine models. Or smallish tower coolers with a 92mm fan. Afaik the mounting system hasn't changed between sockets AM to AM3+.

http://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=cpucooler&x ... %2B&sort=p

Hyper TX and Arctic Cooling Freezer are also good value for the money.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:37 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 709
Location: Denmark
The Arctic Cooling Alpine 64, as Pappnass has also mentioned, would be a great choice for your brother. It's very cheap, it doesn't block any RAM slots, and unless he will torture test the CPU constantly, the CPU will be cooled very quietly. When I play Diablo 3, my Athlon ii X3 425 only reaches temps a bit above 60 C while the CPU fan runs at about 7-800 rpm. I can't hear it at all, and the case I'm currently using (not my signature) only has Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm's at 5 V, i.e. it's silent. The HD is turned off during regular use (using SSD for OS + programs).

Give it a shot. it only costs 10-15 USD.

_________________
Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:33 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11956
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Agreed w/ previous posters re- cheap, simple Arctic Cooling coolers. The Alpine 64 Pro v1 or 2 looks like a bit better bet than GT or standard 64; it's a wee bigger and can run slightly quieter.

_________________
Mike Chin, SPCR Editor/Publisher
Support SPCR by buying your gear through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
Well there certainly seems to be a consensus about the Arctic Cooling coolers ;)

Nonetheless, I have a few concerns about them. The main one is they have this non-standard fan/frame and I really need something that will make it easy for my brother to replace the fan if need be. That's one of the attractions of the HDT-D1284 for me, as that has the fan just pushed onto four rubber mounts so it can easily be pulled off if necessary.

The Arctic Cooling Pro is certainly lighter than the HDT-D1284 though, at 428g vs 667g, so if your opinions are that the latter's too heavy to be safe to ship with the standard AM3 mounting then that would pretty much rule that out, seeing as the ACK-ATI775 mounting kit is no longer available (I found one place in Poland selling it and I could possibly get a friend whose family live there to get it for me and post it over, but it's probably too much hassle and would take too long).

Would the Arctic Cooling Pro cool as well/quietly as the Minja I've already got? Not that I want to use the Minja as I want to use a top-down cooler for the reasons I've already explained, it's just the AC Pro looks a lot less substantial, so it's hard to imagine it can cool as efficiently. Not that the CPU's high-end or going to be overclocked but I just want to be sure it's not going to be a major step backwards.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11956
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Here's the deal about these cheap ACs:
1. they are really cheap
2. they cool well enough 98% of the time if you keep well within the CPU TDP limits
3. they cool very quietly 98% of the time -- not SPCR "silent" but acceptable to the majority of people
4. in the infrequent times when the CPU is loaded to the max for long stretches, the fan ramps up (assuming it's tied to PWM/CPU fan header) and it gets noisier. Surely that's acceptable -- has always been for the non-technical people for whom I used these coolers.
5. the fan is unlikely to go bad -- it runs slow most of the time -- and when it does, it might be time for a new PC anyway, but AC actually has replacements for them, and they're fairly easy to pop off/on
6. Light enough so that properly mounted, the standard clips should fare well in transit

Ship that tower HSF w/ stock clip? Dunno, I'd take a real close took at how well it fits, then jam up the PC cavity with lots of foam so it can't budge in transit.

_________________
Mike Chin, SPCR Editor/Publisher
Support SPCR by buying your gear through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
They're certainly really cheap (although i can get the HDT-D1284 for only £12, so cost isn't really a factor) and they probably will be quiet enough for my brother, as when he's using it as an HTPC and sitting near it, it's unlikely to be loaded enough to ramp the fan up, although it's hard to be sure as some videos will decode using the CPU rather than the on-board GPU (HD3300) and he might be running some other tasks (compressing recordings for example) at the same time. When he's not using it to watch stuff and is browsing, etc he'll be sitting up the other end of the room so he's not going to notice it there. There's the chance he might be sitting in his armchair, near the PC, reading or something whilst it's loaded compressing video, etc though, when he might get bothered by the fan if it spins up.

Whilst the majority of fans I've ever bought are still running fine, I did recently have to replace the fan in my OCZ PSU, which started making very loud noises intermittently, after about a year. Even if AC do currently have replacements available, I'm always wary of tying myself to proprietary parts in case they go out of business or decide to move on and stop making them. Even normal 92mm fans can be tricky to find these days in my experience, so it feels somewhat safer getting something that uses 120mm fans, as they're so commonly used as case fans I can't imagine there ever being a shortage of those to chose from. I also have to bear in mind that this PC will probably have to last my brother much longer than other people, who might replace their PC every few years, which makes it somewhat more likely a fan will fail before he replaces the PC. If he lived nearby it wouldn't be a problem to pop round and fix any problems for him, but as he lives hundreds of miles away that's not practical, so I'm just being a bit over-cautious in trying to pick parts that will minimise complications.

As I don't seem to be able to find anything that takes 120mm fans with a more secure mounting system than the standard AM3 one, I'll have to take another look at my SI-128 SE (which does have a solid mounting system) and see if that could be fitted in a way that doesn't block the RAM slots, as if so I could use that and get myself the HDT-D1284 to replace it on my system. Even if that's not possible, the motherboard (Biostar TA790GX A3+) does allow for using only the two furthest RAM slots thankfully, which I can fill with a 2x4GB kit so sacrificing the two nearest slots wouldn't be the end of the world.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 684
Location: Germany
Do you want low budget and average silence?

Or do you want a fool proof system?

If the your brother isn't into PC, he won't be able to change anything by himself. But if you go along and want to exclude every thinkable technical accident, then buy him a Dell/HP/Lenovo with 24/7 gold support, 4h answer time and pay the price they charge.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
It's not about making it fool-proof as I know unforeseen things can and do go wrong, just about making it as easy as possible for him to replace parts if necessary and avoiding me having to go up there to help him unless absolutely necessary. He wouldn't be able to replace a heatsink but could manage swapping out a fan, HDD/DVD drive or PSU with a bit of advice from me. Low budget and average silence is OK but low budget and excellent silence, which I'd get with the HDT-D1284, is even better. The only concern with the latter is the safety of shipping it and as MikeC suggested, if I can't get the mounting hardware for the HDT-D1284 (or even if I can) I could pack the cavity with foam (or air pouches, which will be a bit tidier as they don't shed) to prevent it moving in transit.

I'll have a look at the price/availability of replacement fans for the AC Pro, as I could perhaps buy a couple of spares now in case he needs them, to protect against the risk of them not being available if and when he needs them.

EDIT: I've just seen this review http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printpag ... Review/894 and it seems the clips that secure the cooler to the motherboard are actually part of the fan frame, so undoing the screws to replace the fan would unlock the entire heatsink meaning it could shift around/lift up in the process, messing up the TIM layer. For that reason I don't think it's an option anymore.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 684
Location: Germany
I just can tell you that all Dell/HP/Lenovo PCs come with no additional delivery protection inside of the PC. In most cases they use either stock intel or smallish coolers like AC Alpine, no heavy tower style coolers though.

So as long as you stick to smallish light coolers, i can't see a high risk for transportation or shipping, given the pc is packed suitably.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
Pappnaas wrote:
I just can tell you that all Dell/HP/Lenovo PCs come with no additional delivery protection inside of the PC. In most cases they use either stock intel or smallish coolers like AC Alpine, no heavy tower style coolers though.

So as long as you stick to smallish light coolers, i can't see a high risk for transportation or shipping, given the pc is packed suitably.


Thanks but I wasn't concerned about shipping with a stock cooler or AC Alpine but with the HDT-D1284 (or SI-128 SE).

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 684
Location: Germany
doveman wrote:
Pappnaas wrote:
I just can tell you that all Dell/HP/Lenovo PCs come with no additional delivery protection inside of the PC. In most cases they use either stock intel or smallish coolers like AC Alpine, no heavy tower style coolers though.

So as long as you stick to smallish light coolers, i can't see a high risk for transportation or shipping, given the pc is packed suitably.


Thanks but I wasn't concerned about shipping with a stock cooler or AC Alpine but with the HDT-D1284 (or SI-128 SE).


Those two seem to be too big to be shipped worryless. But we agreed before that those coolers are pretty overkill for the projected hardware.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
Pappnaas wrote:
doveman wrote:


Those two seem to be too big to be shipped worryless. But we agreed before that those coolers are pretty overkill for the projected hardware.


Whether they're overkill or not, I haven't found a suitable alternative yet (i.e. top-down cooler with easily replaceable fan) so unless someone knows of something, I'm going to have to use one or the other.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 684
Location: Germany
How about Samurai ZZ http://skinflint.co.uk/735570

or Katana3 http://skinflint.co.uk/414213

Both are suited for shipping mounted (imho) and have an easily swapable fan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
Pappnaas wrote:
How about Samurai ZZ http://skinflint.co.uk/735570

or Katana3 http://skinflint.co.uk/414213

Both are suited for shipping mounted (imho) and have an easily swapable fan.


Thanks. I don't really like the Katana3 as it doesn't blow straight down and so probably won't cool the NB/IGP as well but the Samurai ZZ might be an option.

I'm also considering whether I could ship the HDT-D1284 without the fan fitted, which will keep the weight down and my brother can just fit that at his end. I'd probably still pack the cavity just to be safe as well. I can get it for about half the price of the Samurai ZZ so that's a factor as well.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a top-down heatsink for AM3
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 843
Location: London
So the HDT-D1284 weighs 667g with fan and a Nexus 120mm weighs 123g, so I can estimate the D1284 without fan will weigh about 544g, which is not a lot more than the Samurai ZZ at 472g, so it should be OK I think.

_________________
Main: Asus Z97-A, i5-4670k@4.4Ghz, Scythe Kotetsu HSF, Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 4x4GB, eVGA SuperNova G2 750W, Powercolor 6950 2GB GPU, Samsung 840 Evo 256GB SSD, Samsung 2TB and WD 2TB HDDs, Coolermaster HAF XB case

2nd PC: MSI 990FXA-GD80, Phenom II X4 955@3.5Ghz, TRUE Rev. C/Nexus, HD6850 1GB, Yate Loon 140mm intake, Nexus 120mm exhaust, HD103UJ, WD6400AAKS, Nexus Value 430W, Bach VX case


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group