The requirements are pretty simple, and follow:

mATX.
Socket 1155.
Side mounted SATA ports.
USB-3
SATA 3 (6Gb/s).
Obviously I want this to be as cheap as possible, whilst still being a reliable and reputable manufacturer.

The following would be nice but are not required.

HDMI.
3-year warranty.
MOSFET heatsinks.
Good CPU fan control.
Ability to run RAM above 1,600 MHz
SLI CrossFire NOT a requirement and not really necessary.

The MSI H77MA-G43 ticks all of the requirements and some of the unnecessary boxes as well (costs £60 including tax).

http://uk.msi.com/product/mb/H77MA-G43.html

Does anyone have any experience of this motherboard, or any experience of another motherboard that meets my requirements.? Sadly there are no review of this motherboard on the internet that I can find.

From what I have seen the H77 or Z77 chipset seems to be a requirement for the SATA 3 and USB 3. I cant find a reason to pay more for for the Z77 chipset which seems to offer nothing at all that I am interested in, which leaves me with the H77 chipset as the only real choice.


Andy

Look at http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_ ... P8B75M_LE/

Seems to tick most requirements and has proven fan control. Should also come in cheaper than any H77.

Hi Andy, I think the Z77 gives over-clocking ability over the H77. I think all most recent generation chipsets can "over-clock" or at least force max turbo clock of the integrated graphics of the CPU. For CPUs that have "turbo boost" feature with Z77 I think you can force that as an overclock, ie 4 "bins," that is 400MHz. You need a "K" CPU for higher overclocking. B75 chipset motherboards are cheaper than H77 (mostly) and have USB3 and SATA III (6Gbps) but only a single port and no RAID or anything like that.

Seb

Thanks, I will have a good look at that later - there is one unusual issue with that board though, it only has 1x SATA-3 port, which is odd - this is not necessarily a deal-breaker but any new motherboard could do with 2 of these ports for SSD's.

And yes it does appear to be cheaper, about £10-£15 cheaper from a brief look at Google Shopping.



Thanks for the info, I dont care about RAID, or overclocking the Integrated Intel GPU, so the Z77 is definitely out, but as mentioned above the single SATA-3 port is off putting.


Andy

As I have not tried overclocking any Intel systems since my Core 2 Duo (successfully).

Can someone please confirm or deny whether I will be able to overclock the FSB on either an i5-3450, or most likely an i3-3220 via the FSB route without this affecting any other buses as I can on my current AMD system and I can on my old C2D. I know that the Multiplier is locked, but that doesn't bother me so long as the motherboard can support an FSB increase to 116 (from 100), which would allow me to set my RAM to 1866 and still have good timings.

Apart from motherboard and CPU stability causing problems, is this possible.?

I would love to be able to afford a faster i5, but that's probably not going to be possible, so the next best thing is a cheap i3 + OC, or the cheapest i5 + OC.

In general terms over the decade+ that I have been overclocking PC's for all of the above has been possible and the lower end CPU's usually allow for a higher bus speed due to their lower multiplier, meaning that the CPU clock headroom is greater to start with, and then if needed to simply drop the CPU multiplier to gain stability or overvolt, which is not ideal.

I dont really care about any performance references apart from Games, and the PC needs to be at least as fast as my current setup: Phenom II 840 (no L3 cache, so really an Athlon II) running @ 3.7GHz with the FSB @ 233 (Intel equivalent = 116.5), and the RAM running @ 1866.

I know that Intel CPU's dont get as much of a boost from higher RAM speeds compared to AMD systems, but as I have 2000MHz rated RAM I might as well put it to use, and of course that's the easiest way to an overclock in my experience.

Please add your thoughts, experiences and comments.


Andy

With modern Intel based systems, you don't touch the BCLK (the FSB replacement) at all. It's 100MHz, and it stays at 100MHz. Any higher and you're risking significant issues with system stability. This also means that the only way of getting an overclocked processor is to purchase a K-series CPU. That being said, the i3 system would likely keep up quite well with your Phenom, and would allow you to save up and drop in an i5 at some later date if you find that you need the additional crunching power.

The ASUS BIOSes will often allow you to simply set the RAM speeds to DDR3-1866 right out of the box. Heck, you might even be able to run your RAM at the rated DDR3-2000. Intel systems benefit more from higher RAM frequencies, even at the expense of timings. If you can run at a higher frequency with a slight bump in timings, do so.

I picked up the P8H77-M Pro a few days ago, but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Not sure about UK prices, but I paid $125 CAD. From my experience in the past couple of years, ASUS boards have excellent BIOS support and a very intuitive UEFI BIOS layout.

I have the same board. P8H77-M Pro + 3570K is a great combination, I highly recommend it.
Overclocking only works with multiplier overclocks. You can run CPUs at their respective top boost clocks (+400MHz tops), for real overclocking you need a K CPU. Forget BLK altogether it's not worth it. It goes to 105MHz tops anyway.
My 3570k runs perfectly @ 4.6GHz. Z77 makes sense with a K CPU (almost only then) except for the features of the board above H77 boards.
Ram don't matter either above 1800MHz, and the speed increase above 1600MHz is only measurable, not notable.

Wow, that's a big change from previous years, its "K" for overclocking or nothing

The cheapest "K" CPU on the market at the moment is £72 more expensive than the cheapest i3.

I am fast going off of the idea of upgrading my system, which the main purpose of doing is so that I can plug my DVD drive back in (4 of my 6 SATA ports are obstructed by my graphics card), as it was I was looking at losing £30 - £35 compared with what I can sell my current motherboard and CPU for with a motherboard costing £62 and the cheapest i3 costing £95 for a reasonably small CPU performance increase. Being able to overclock the i3 would have made it worthwhile.

I think I will use my USB DVD drive when I need it and stick with my current setup for the time being and perhaps get a new FX CPU when the eventually turn up... and if they are not crap, currently there is no point at all in my upgrading my CPU to a current FX CPU.


Andy

Judging by the performance of my current CPU vs an i3 3220 in the only review I have found that is wort looking at, there would not be enough of a performance difference to merit a change.

http://technewspedia.com/intel-core-i3- ... -10-games/

Unless I win the lottery I wont be upgrading, and will have to use my USB DVD drive when I need it.


Andy

ive never understood the poor placement of some mobo's sata ports... they often put usb headers all over the board, but sata's only in one spot... ?

what mobo do you have now btw?

This is my motherboard.

http://uk.gigabyte.com/products/product ... 17&dl=1#ov

Due to the fact that its mATX with integrated graphics (so I can sell it easily in the future) and that AMD still use crappy 2-chip chipsets they had to put the 16x PCI-E slot one slot down which meant that a large graphics card overlaps 4 of my 6 SATA ports, which would not be an issue if they were side mounted.

Other than I not being able to plug my DVD Drive in I am perfectly happy with the motherboard.

I think I will need to hang on for a while before I get to sell it, and will probably have to save up loads more cash to be able to get a "K" version of an i5 to get a truly clear CPU performance upgrade.

As far as the B75 chipset motherboards are concerned, I have ruled them out anyway, the saving of about £10 over a H77 motherboard is not enough compared with the loss of performance I well get when I buy my next SSD due to the measly single SATA 6 port on the B75 chipset.

On the other hand there is always the outside chance that when the AMD Piledriver CPU's turn up they might actually be good at which point I might get one of those and just forget my DVD drive altogether and just download ISO's of any games that require a DVD disc to be in the drive to play the game and open the image with VirtualCloneDrive.

I wont miss my DVD drive anyway, as I have another PC sat next tome that has a working DVD drive if I need to burn a disc. Judging by the trends of my PC's DVD drives are going out of fashion rapidly. My server never had one, my HTPC never had one, my main PC now doesnt have one connected, that leaves my work PC, which must have one, plus I have my USB DVD drive for portable work purposes.


Andy

If you're SMBing to the second SSD SATA-3 won't be the bottleneck. In real life i wouldn't bother as to the practical difference of SATA3 against SATA6, except for the system disk.

On the other hand, if throughout SATA6 cost under, say 40€, more, i'd go for SATA6. But not on any cost.

Unless you're planning on spending the cash to get an i5 (with or without overclock capabilities), I'd say that the upgrade from your current system to an i3 wouldn't be worth it. If you do want to have the flexibility of overclocking, you'll also need a Z77 board. H77 boards cannot be used to overclock K-series CPUs, but they still allow for underclocking and undervolting.

I am not sure what "SMBing" means.! When, rather than if I get my next SSD it will either be a clone of my existing SSD with more space and faster still, or it will be a re-install. Either way the 2nd SSD (my current one) will become my primary backup (via windows automatic daily backups as noon) and also spare space to install games on, or to have ISO image files on to truly remove my DVD drive for older games that require the disc to be present. I will continue to keep my 500GB 2.5" drive for general storage as well as a third backup of my data, but in reality I will likely upgrade my CPU/mobo before I get my next SSD so I will have spare ports, and obviously its only SSD's that benefit from SATA 3.



Your opinion makes me feel more sure about my own, thanks



I thought that you could overclock a "K" CPU with a H77 board but only via the multiplier, and if you wanted to overclock the bus speed (above about 4%) you had to get a Z77.!!! I am now more confused than ever.


Andy

How about buying a $20 PCIe card that has an internal SATA port or 2?

You would need a Z77 to overclock the CPU, but then again there are some lower cost Z77 boards that would be worth considering. MSI for example have the Z77MA-G45 which from my local dealer costs £75. Like many Z77 boards it has an automatic overclock option which should take a 3570K to something in the low 4Ghz range without needing to resort to manual setting changes. The same dealer also has an OEM version of the 3570K for £168. I assume you can use the memory from your existing board. So your upgrade cost would be £243 minus whatever you can recover by selling the old motherboard and cpu. For this you would see a substantial boost in performance and a degree of power saving compared to your existing setup. The Z77MA-G45 would also resolve the issues regarding SATA port access and tick a few of the other boxes.

If you want to overclock on an Intel system, you need an overclocking capable chipset and CPU.

i3-3220 + Z77 = no overclocking possible
i5-3570K + H77 = no overclocking possible
i5-3570K + Z77 = overclocking possible

Again, the days of FSB based overclocking on Intel systems are long gone (and is probably never coming back). As I mentioned before, messing with the BCLK is a recipe for instability and causes far more headaches than it's worth. When you have the supported hardware for overclocking, you adjust the turbo multipliers to get a higher CPU clockspeed - not the stock multiplier. Even your memory frequency is set by a multiplier in your BIOS. It will simply have a list of DDR3-1066, DDR3-1333, DDR3-1600, etc etc. You should never have to do any mental math to figure out what frequency your RAM is running at.


The real question is what you're planning on doing with any additional computing power you're looking to buy. For my purposes, I'm planning on doing a LOT of video re-encoding soon, so getting a little boost to 4.2GHz on my i7-3770K was worth the extra money. I also try to keep my motherboard for a long time between system upgrades. My previous X38 based motherboard had seen several different configurations around it over the past 4 years. If you've got any number crunching intensive apps, then you'd likely be better off saving up a little bit and getting a Z77+i5-3570K system. With a decent heatsink, you should be able to get 4.2-4.3GHz while still keeping noise levels in the spirit of these forums.

Its an idea, but as I already have a USB DVD drive or ISO files on a HDD, I think I will reduce my expense and use that until further notice.



I think I would be able to sell my current CPU + mobo for about £130 which is why I was looking at a H77 mobo + i3 CPU with the intention of overclocking it because that would not be a huge expense, now I know that's not possible, I will stick with what I have and make do with a USB DVD drive, or ISO files on a HDD.



Thanks for the info Nick.

I only use my PC for browsing the internet, playing with documents, occasional video editing, watching movies and playing PC games. The games are the only thing that is stressful for the CPU, but now its overclocked and I have had a bit of a look around the internet there doesn't seem to be any point in upgrading at the moment.

Although "wprime" is a long way short of being a true indication of CPU performance whilst playing games, I have tested mine and its fractionally faster than a stock i5 2500K or a Phenom II x4 975 (because it seems that "wprime" doesn't use L3 cache, its all about clockspeed). I have also just tightened up the timings on my RAM which will help a little as well.

I have thought of one other possibility, I am sure many people will have seen SATA cables with a 90 degree connection (I have several), if I can find somewhere that sells them with the 90 degree angle facing the other way, that will work and then this thread will be dead and buried.


Andy

Problem solved (so long as it actually fits under the graphics card).

http://www.kikatek.com/P187676/SATA12LA ... ce=froogle

As it turns out its the simplest and cheapest solution by a long way.

FYI, its called a "left angle" SATA cable.

Now I need to wait for glorious daylight to look inside my PC to see if it will fit under the graphics card, if it will its getting ordered tomorrow.


Andy

SATA18LA1 on eBay UK

Hope this helps, Seb

Thanks, but I have already found exactly the same one at Kikatek who I have bought from before (and therefore trust), and its cheaper as well


Andy

In terms of solely gaming: the last couple generations of AMD CPUs haven't been very efficient in terms of fps. Take a look at Anandtech's Bench and compare any of the current gen AMD quad cores vs Intel. Even the lowly Pentium 850 holds it's own vs the X4 980BE.

I think that I am just looking for an excuse for an upgrade, but I will have to wait until I actually have the money to spend.

This very interesting review / benchmark marathon was exceptionally interesting, and exposes the weakness of the AMD CPU's compared to the Intel CPU's.

http://techreport.com/review/23246/insi ... day-cpus/1

Although I can play just about any game with everything or at least most of the eye candy turned on, some games still jump, or lag from time to time, just for a split second, these things have been looked at in detail in this article.

My CPU is 12% faster than the Phenom II X4 850 due to its overclock and ignoring the increased memory bandwidth which brings it further up the table but its still in a different league to the socket 1155 i5 CPU's and above in the test.


Andy

Yeah, the Tech Reports rocks these detailed frame time reviews.