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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:02 am 
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Posts: 18
@figment: There's a couple of things that sets high end gamer mice apart from cheaper mice. The one thing that isn't particularly useful is the ultra high resolution. They're up to 5600DPI now (if not higher), which only makes the mouse ultra sensitive (lots of cursor movement for a very small mouse movement). There's also the USB polling rate, which is 125Hz by default, which is "good enough", but 500Hz offers a noticeable improvement (slightly smoother, more responsive movement). The polling rate only goes up to 1000Hz (which actually isn't noticeably better than 500Hz), but this isn't the cause of the high frequency sound that some of these mice emit. The cause is simply a design decision from (mainly) Logitech, which affects even the lower end mice:
Quote:
Past information on this site stated the problem was with the IR/LED transmitter used in handling scroll wheel functionality: this is not the case, but the IR/LED transmitter does play a role with regards to the issue. The source of the noise is a ceramic capacitor on the the mini-PCB of all of these mice. The mini-PCB is what holds the left/right/middle buttons, as well as the scroll wheel, in addition to some very basic circuitry.

A technical description of the problem from the individual who tracked it down:

The problem isn't terribly uncommon - ceramic caps have an awful lot of good qualities. For a number of applications, properly rated ceramic caps are pretty much the ideal choice. The problem is that if there is enough voltage ripple on a ceramic cap, it will physically "ring" (Google for "ceramic capacitor microphonics"). The real kicker here is that whoever designed this for Logitech decided to pulse the wheel encoder LED at 5KHz, and due to the magic of frequency multiplication, we end up with noise at the 3rd harmonic, 15KHz which is high enough to only enough to drive some small fraction of the general population nuts. ... If Logitech were to change the sampling frequency up by 20% or more, or change the capacitor type, or just stop pulsing the thing and eat the extra couple mW of power dissipation, this issue would go away.

From http://jdc.parodius.com/logitech/


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Canada
AhamB wrote:

@NoiseFreeGuy: I would read up on shielding and grounding for electro-smog. There is quite a lot that can be done to minimize or even remove the EMF from things like power adapters (and all sorts of other electronic devices). Simply wrapping a metal wire cage around an adapter and attaching it to the ground of the adapter may do. I'm not an expert, but I know people who do these things (modify equipment to minimize field emissions).


Thanks for this info!
I have an assortment of power adapters, some noisy some not.
The worst culprit is my HP Printer adapter. It's so bad, that I leave my printer unplugged unless I need to print. It's got a nasty high-pitched whine. Very faint, but for me it's unbearable.

The way you describe the cage, it sounds a little scary. You've got a live wire (the ground) exposed (the cage).


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:35 am 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
The way you describe the cage, it sounds a little scary. You've got a live wire (the ground) exposed (the cage).

Ground is not a live wire. A metal computer case is connected to ground for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Location: Canada
Hi while I also have my doubts on this phenomenon, I'm not here to judge, I did run across this
http://www.lowemfoffice.com/shielded_mouse.htm
your best bet may be through clever modifications of your hardware, and smart placement (think KVM or other extensions), "dumb" terminals, network storage, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Location: Sweden
Hi all!

@NoiseFreeGuy
Did you ever solve your problem?

I am actually still using an USB ball mouse with my main computer, I believe I bought the mouse back in 2001.
It´s a Logitech Wingman gaming mouse, but during the 90s this mouse was sold under lots of different names.
I have put glide pads under it now, and it works just as great as modern mice do :) .

@magu2k
Interesting link, should be an easy mod to make yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Canada
-=ARA=- wrote:
Hi all!

@NoiseFreeGuy
Did you ever solve your problem?

I am actually still using an USB ball mouse with my main computer, I believe I bought the mouse back in 2001.
It´s a Logitech Wingman gaming mouse, but during the 90s this mouse was sold under lots of different names.
I have put glide pads under it now, and it works just as great as modern mice do :) .


No I didn't actually.
But I don't travel very much, which is when I'd need the mouse with my netbook.
For me, it's disappointing to see almost everything is going wireless today.

You're a lucky man to have that mouse! Hang onto it and treat it well. :)

I use a wired PS/2 mouse on my desktop. They're even rarer than the USB wired.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:55 am 
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Posts: 1
I've read all answers to this old post and most were not helpful.
A non optical mouse FELLOWES 3 BUTTON PS/2 SCROLL MOUSE
is currently listed for sale on Ebay.com (for under four dollars)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Fellowes-Wh ... 4068838%26


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Posts: 66
Location: Launceston, Australia
True, but you also necro'd a thread by over a year, silly-billy.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Posts: 2
Hi,

I've read this thread with interest, and joined up to post this comment which I hope will help.

You may have heightened sensitivity to 'dirty power', which is what most cheap transformers kick out these days. This type of electric current has a lot of high frequency in it. I have an idea that may help you and other sufferers of electro-sensitivity but I haven't tried it out as I'm not a sufferer myself.

If you can operate a laptop with battery ok, but notice a difference when it is plugged in, thats because the battery is giving you much cleaner DC than the DC from an AC/DC transformer.

Your goal should be to supply your peripherals, i.e mouse and keyboard with the cleanest DC signal you can. You would need to break the 5v power supply from your usb port to your mouse but keep the data signal, this would mean hacking into a USB cable, and finding out which leads supply the 5v and breaking that connection.

You would then want to connect a 5v battery (if you do step down from 12v to 5v for instance use an audio grade power conditioner) to the power supply for the mouse.

I reckon to go all the way, you would want to get the best audio-grade power filter you could afford as that will be producing the cleanest power.

If you don't fancy the DIY part then I'm sure a local electrician would do it for a very small fee.

If anyone does try this it would be great to hear if it helped at all.

Best. Danny


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:48 am 
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Posts: 2
.... leading on from my last post. I've just found a USB Isolator on ebay, so you wouldn't need to hack the cable..


Olimex USB-ISO usb 1000V isolator full speed for development and audio hifi dac

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Olimex-USB-IS ... 41705c696a


There is also a few low noise voltage regulators that you could use between the battery and peripheral like:
SPower HC Low Noise Voltage Regulator

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270806918718? ... 1423.l2649

If you get a battery, best to get a good ol lead-acid car battery type, rather than the new li-ion packs as the latter often have cheap voltage regulators built in already which can cause high-frequency noise!


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:12 am 
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Hi guys

This has been a very interesting thread to me. Apologies in advance for dragging up a 2 year old thread!

Around 2008 I started experiencing numbness and tingling in my mouse hand which I believed was RSI / Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from many years of computing (since around 1994). I tried swapping to my left hand and within a few hours I got exactly the same issue.

Over the years, this pain and numbness developed significantly and I have almost quit my job on few occasions. I tried everything from physiotherapy, massage, acupuncture, nerve conductivity tests, cortisone shots.

I have spent literally thousands testing every single ergonomic mouse you could imagine (upright mice, trackballs, track pads, pen tablets). Absolutely none of this worked and all of this made the situation worse.

After reading this thread a month ago I purchased a $5 PS/2 'ball' mouse and I'm happy to say the numbness and tingling has reduced by around 90%! I do still experience flare ups when using an iPhone, touch screen tablet etc but I can minimise this by using a stylus.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this experience. I know many here believe EMF exposure is BS (especially at such low levels) but for me this issue was very real.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:33 am 
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What EMF does a stylus tablet or touch pad emit?

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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:55 am 
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narco1978 wrote:
I know many here believe EMF exposure is BS (especially at such low levels) but for me this issue was very real.

I'm sure it's real and it's not BS.

What is BS is the irrational fear and closing of the mind concerning stuff like double blind tests. The headache one feels while the router LED is lit and the sureness of what the problem is. It's the radioactive wifi signals or something. Can not be the coil whine from the power supply, no sir. No research into if the amount of traffic over the air effects the intensity of the headache, of if the neighbors usage is the culprit. No research at all into what might be the problem, only fear.

It seem that for everyone like you with a real problem, there are 10 people that will describe a similar problem without any testing at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:45 am 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
What EMF does a stylus tablet or touch pad emit?

I tried using a Wacom Intous Pro as a large touchpad (connected via USB rather than Wifi) and had to quit after a couple of days. I'm guessing EMF is quite high.

The worst offender for me was a Surface Pro 4 which actually made my hair stand on end after short usage with severe numbness throughout both arms. Thankfully I returned it for a full refund.

I'm currently using a PS/2 ball mouse and keyboard with Ferrite clips attached at both ends and this has definitely helped a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:57 am 
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Vicotnik wrote:
narco1978 wrote:
It seem that for everyone like you with a real problem, there are 10 people that will describe a similar problem without any testing at all.

I actually don't have any problems with Wifi. I've done a double blind test at home with my router and can't sense a thing.

My issue seems more related to a localized nerve issue in both hands that are very sensitive to electrical fields in close proximity (touchpads, iphones, optical mouse). It's strange and annoying but I can work around it.

I'm wondering if there are others out there with RSI/Carpal Tunnel type conditions who may have something similar.

There are other threads on other sites of reports such as this one:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4148193?tstart=0


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:35 am 
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So, if you believe it's EMF, then creating a Faraday Cage should negate the problem, eh? Try wearing gloves with silver thread woven in made for touchscreen use. Might need to clip a grounding wire to the glove(s).

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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:49 pm 
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What about trying to use keyboard shortcuts more? I'm not a fan of how many people fill their lives with endless pointing and clicking on a computer instead of learning to use them intelligently. Use of the right software and shortcuts, macros, the command line and scripting can drastically reduce this drudgery.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:04 am 
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We have FAR more powerful EMF fields around ALL the time - the 1.5-3V of a wireless mouse pales in comparison to the 120V wires all through every building. And the 240V in most buildings. And the 30,000-50,000V of high tension cables. Every car has 12V battery and 1,000's of volts for the spark plugs.

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