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 Post subject: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Posts: 26
My planned "cool and quiet" non-gaming build:

    Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 case
    Seasonic SS-400FL 400W fanless 80 plus gold
    Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H (no overclocking)
    Intel i7-3770S (65W TDP)
    CPU cooler (still looking)
    8GB RAM (2x4GB) Crucial Ballistix Tactical DDR3 1600 (8-8-8-24)
    no video card (using the integrated HD 4000 graphics)
    Plextor M3 128GB SSD drive (boot drive, Windows 7)
    3.5" hard drive
    optical drive (in top 5.25" external bay)
    3.5" card reader (in TJ08-E lower bay, or PS07 second 5.25" bay)

With its external 3.5" bay for the card reader, the TJ08-B is a tempting choice. But some reviews say:

    the 180mm fan is somewhat noisy (and there are few aftermarket 180mm options)
    the 180mm fan makes a clicking sound even at low speeds
    the case is prone to vibration from a hard drive

If these issues arise in my build, I'd need to swap out the 180mm fan for a quieter one (or a 140mm fan, for which there are more options), and I'd need to mount the hard drive in the second 5.25" bay (on the theory there would be more damping choices in a large bay). The SSD would go in the hard drive cage.

Alternatively, I could go with the PS07, install the card reader in the second 5.25" bay, and install the hard drive in either the hard drive cage or the lower 3.5" cage, whichever produces less vibration. If the two 120mm fans are noisy, there are lots of aftermarket options.

Seeking comments and suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:01 am 
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My first question is, if you're not a gamer, why do you need the 3770S? I like speed, too, but the i5 family is fast enough for most needs. Also, I've read criticism about the S and T versions (especially here at SPCR).

I've been looking at the TJ08-E, too, but like you I have some doubts about it. Nevertheless, it has a bay for a card reader and it has no door, so that makes it attractive to me in comparison to (among others) the Fractal Define Mini. If the door and the lacking bay don't bother you, consider the Mini.

The TJ08-E is small and built for performance. Remove the HDD cage and you have optimum airflow. But the 180mm fan is unacceptable as is. You would have to slow it down with a resistor or, for example, the Zalman Fan Mate 2.

Good choices of heatsink for the 3770 in the TJ08-E are the HR-02 macho (new version coming up, by the way) and the Noctua NH-U12P SE2. I have seen the Noctua NH-D14 used a lot in this case, but it may be overkill depending on your configuration. On the other hand, in combination with the intake fan, the NH-D14 turns the case into a virtual wind tunnel.

I would also dampen noise in the TJ08-E using Silverstone SF01 foam pads.

Just my two cents. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:31 am 
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I dithered between the Fractal Define Mini and the TJ08-E for a long while before finally settling on the Fractal. I now kinda wish I'd gone for the TJ08-E but I strongly suspect had I done so I'd now be kind of wishing I'd gone for the Fractal :) The mini is a darn fine case but a little bigger than it needs to be (and as RHN points out, the door, whilst aiding acoustics somewhat will hinder regular usage of the card reader). I've got three 120mm case fans, a CPU fan, and an (albeit low power) discreet graphics card fan running in a define mini at noise levels just approaching "silent".

You've got a total of two fans (one of those 180mm) and a single (potentially) vibey hard drive to contend with; hell, with the combined wisdom of years of SPCR articles that kind of setup can be made "silent" in *any* case.

I'd probably go the TJ08-E in your position. The desire for a card reader makes perfect use of that otherwise slightly odd external 3.5" bay in the TJ08-E, sure, it could be fitted in the PS07 5.25" bay but the white aesthetic might be harmed by a card reader. You might find that the fan isn't an issue for you, but if it is then no more than 5 of any given currency will source you a fanmate. You might find that hard drive vibration isn't an issue for you, but if it is, as you've already identified, it'll cost you the price of two rubber bands to fix :)

Perhaps best to go with whichever you like the look of best as once silenced that's pretty much the only consideration you'll give it in use.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:51 am 
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RHN wrote:
My first question is, if you're not a gamer, why do you need the 3770S? I like speed, too, but the i5 family is fast enough for most needs. Also, I've read criticism about the S and T versions (especially here at SPCR).

I've been looking at the TJ08-E, too, but like you I have some doubts about it. Nevertheless, it has a bay for a card reader and it has no door, so that makes it attractive to me in comparison to (among others) the Fractal Define Mini. If the door and the lacking bay don't bother you, consider the Mini.

The TJ08-E is small and built for performance. Remove the HDD cage and you have optimum airflow. But the 180mm fan is unacceptable as is. You would have to slow it down with a resistor or, for example, the Zalman Fan Mate 2.

Good choices of heatsink for the 3770 in the TJ08-E are the HR-02 macho (new version coming up, by the way) and the Noctua NH-U12P SE2. I have seen the Noctua NH-D14 used a lot in this case, but it may be overkill depending on your configuration. On the other hand, in combination with the intake fan, the NH-D14 turns the case into a virtual wind tunnel.

I would also dampen noise in the TJ08-E using Silverstone SF01 foam pads.

Just my two cents. Good luck.

Thanks RHN for your feedback.

I'm interested in the i7-3770s for its HD 4000 graphics, and for its 65W TDP (to limit cooling hardware and noise). Regarding problems with the i7-3770s, I did a quick search of SPCR, but didn't find anything of concern. Do you recall what the problems are?

Regarding the Fractal Define Mini, it looks good, but I'm concerned about dust getting into those top mounted USB and audio ports.

Thanks also for the Zalman Fan Mate 2 and Silverstone SF01 foam tips.

Regarding cooling, I'm wondering if even the Noctua NH-U12P SE2 is also overkill for an i7-3770s. My current Dell Optiplex 330 (Intel E6600, same 65W TDP as the i7-3770s) uses Dell's CPU heatsink/fan assembly with NO case fans. The only other fan is the small PSU fan. At idle, core temps are in the low 30's and at high load they're in the high 40's (during which time the CPU fan spins slowly, and the air flowing out of the heatsink is cool). At both loads, the air coming out of the PSU fan is slightly warm.

Is there something different about the i7-3770s that would cause it to produce more heat than a E6600?


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:01 am 
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MiniMatt wrote:
I dithered between the Fractal Define Mini and the TJ08-E for a long while before finally settling on the Fractal. I now kinda wish I'd gone for the TJ08-E but I strongly suspect had I done so I'd now be kind of wishing I'd gone for the Fractal :) The mini is a darn fine case but a little bigger than it needs to be (and as RHN points out, the door, whilst aiding acoustics somewhat will hinder regular usage of the card reader). I've got three 120mm case fans, a CPU fan, and an (albeit low power) discreet graphics card fan running in a define mini at noise levels just approaching "silent".

You've got a total of two fans (one of those 180mm) and a single (potentially) vibey hard drive to contend with; hell, with the combined wisdom of years of SPCR articles that kind of setup can be made "silent" in *any* case.

I'd probably go the TJ08-E in your position. The desire for a card reader makes perfect use of that otherwise slightly odd external 3.5" bay in the TJ08-E, sure, it could be fitted in the PS07 5.25" bay but the white aesthetic might be harmed by a card reader. You might find that the fan isn't an issue for you, but if it is then no more than 5 of any given currency will source you a fanmate. You might find that hard drive vibration isn't an issue for you, but if it is, as you've already identified, it'll cost you the price of two rubber bands to fix :)

Perhaps best to go with whichever you like the look of best as once silenced that's pretty much the only consideration you'll give it in use.

Thanks MiniMatt.

I prefer the look of the white PS07, but I take your point about finding a matching card reader. I found some in white, but I doubt they match the Silverstone white.

Regarding quieting the hard drive with "two rubber bands", is there a particular kit that is known to do a good job, or do you literally mean some sort of modding using two rubber bands? If the latter, is there a description of how to do it? (This is my first build, and I'm not familiar with these techniques.)


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:11 am 
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spcmhe wrote:
I'm interested in the i7-3770s for its HD 4000 graphics, and for its 65W TDP (to limit cooling hardware and noise). Regarding problems with the i7-3770s, I did a quick search of SPCR, but didn't find anything of concern. Do you recall what the problems are?


The i7-3770S is merely a downclocked and perhaps slightly undervolted i7-3770 for which you pay a premium price. If you are comfortable mucking around in the BIOS or using any of the mobo mfgrs speed tools, you can just buy the non-S part and underclock/undervolt to your heart's delight.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:00 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
spcmhe wrote:
I'm interested in the i7-3770s for its HD 4000 graphics, and for its 65W TDP (to limit cooling hardware and noise). Regarding problems with the i7-3770s, I did a quick search of SPCR, but didn't find anything of concern. Do you recall what the problems are?


The i7-3770S is merely a downclocked and perhaps slightly undervolted i7-3770 for which you pay a premium price. If you are comfortable mucking around in the BIOS or using any of the mobo mfgrs speed tools, you can just buy the non-S part and underclock/undervolt to your heart's delight.

i would also suggest a vanilla intel chip.
@ steve, boy intel sure made a great marketing move by throttling a few chips and adding a little letter to the end of their name. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:40 am 
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Location: UK
spcmhe wrote:
Regarding quieting the hard drive with "two rubber bands", is there a particular kit that is known to do a good job, or do you literally mean some sort of modding using two rubber bands? If the latter, is there a description of how to do it? (This is my first build, and I'm not familiar with these techniques.)


You can buy kits which look more professional such as the Tiche PC HDD Vibration Killer, which SCPR have reviewed favourably but all the commercial solutions are essentially prettying up the DIY solution Mike detailed back in the mists of time at http://www.silentpcreview.com/article8-page2.html - the photos there should see you right.

EDIT: Should probably add that using actual elastic bands, the kind we steal from the office stationary cupboard (hands up stationary kleptomaniacs) is probably not ideal. The rubber used will tend to perish and crack over time, better to get down to a craft store and splurge a whole dollar, maybe even two, on a length of sleeved elastic cord. But by all means prototype with any old laggy band / shoelace lying around.


Last edited by MiniMatt on Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:55 am 
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@ spcmhe

According to Newegg, the i7 3770 lists for $300, the i7 3770S for $305. So, not much of a price difference, and if you aren't comfortable with underclocking, the S version might be the better choice.

In my newest (last year's) build, I chose an i5 2400S and am happy with it. I'm not sure I would do it again, though, as the "less isn't necessarily more" arguments forwarded here at SPCR make sense if you want to keep the overclocking option.

Many quiet PC builders regularly select S or T models, see http://www.endpcnoise.com or http://www.ichbinleise.de/ (the latter's in German, but the specs don't need translation). They must have their reasons.

As for HD4000, that I would prefer, too, though if you just want to look at video clips or a DVD now and then, HD2500 is adequate.

The more important question is whether i5 or i7. If you are doing some hefty number crunching, i7 is the better choice. If not, you'll be paying a premium for a speed boost that in many applications wouldn't be that noticeable or noticeable at all. I have been considering an i7 myself because I use Dragon Naturally Speaking and (SPCR mavens correct me, please) the i7 makes a perceptible difference when using that program.

For many, all roads lead to the i5 3570K, which has HD4000, can be underclocked, and is reasonably priced.

The i5 3475S is an -S processor and has HD4000, but I can't find it listed for sale.

Regarding a heatsink, I have seen the HR-02 used passively in the Temjin case and that might be a good silencing option with a 65W CPU.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:46 am 
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RHN wrote:
@ spcmhe

According to Newegg, the i7 3770 lists for $300, the i7 3770S for $305. So, not much of a price difference, and if you aren't comfortable with underclocking, the S version might be the better choice.

In my newest (last year's) build, I chose an i5 2400S and am happy with it. I'm not sure I would do it again, though, as the "less isn't necessarily more" arguments forwarded here at SPCR make sense if you want to keep the overclocking option.

Many quiet PC builders regularly select S or T models, see http://www.endpcnoise.com or http://www.ichbinleise.de/ (the latter's in German, but the specs don't need translation). They must have their reasons.

As for HD4000, that I would prefer, too, though if you just want to look at video clips or a DVD now and then, HD2500 is adequate.

The more important question is whether i5 or i7. If you are doing some hefty number crunching, i7 is the better choice. If not, you'll be paying a premium for a speed boost that in many applications wouldn't be that noticeable or noticeable at all. I have been considering an i7 myself because I use Dragon Naturally Speaking and (SPCR mavens correct me, please) the i7 makes a perceptible difference when using that program.

For many, all roads lead to the i5 3570K, which has HD4000, can be underclocked, and is reasonably priced.

The i5 3475S is an -S processor and has HD4000, but I can't find it listed for sale.

Regarding a heatsink, I have seen the HR-02 used passively in the Temjin case and that might be a good silencing option with a 65W CPU.


Thanks, RHN (and others). for the i5/i7 info, and for the HR-02 suggestion.

For me, the attraction of the i7-3770S is that Intel has figured out (and presumably carefully tested) whatever they did to get it to 65W TDP), an exercise that I'm not likely to do as well -- and I don't intend to overclock later on.

Even so, underclocking an i5-3570K is an interesting option, and I have these questions/concerns:

1. Is a Z77 board needed to underclock? (if so, the extra cost cancels part of the i5 savings). The Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H board has some clocking options, but I don't know if they're sufficient.

2. Is there an unambiguous underclocking path to 65W TDP that is stable (and equivalent to, say, the i5-3475S)? (I've seen so many clocking opinions/problems that it's not clear the cost savings is worth it, especially since both the i5 and i7 have more power than I need. My goal is stable 65 TDP operation, not maximized 65 TDP performance.)

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:53 am 
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Quote:
Is a Z77 board needed to underclock? (if so, the extra cost cancels part of the i5 savings). The Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H board has some clocking options, but I don't know if they're sufficient.


Here I'm out of my depth. I would send an inquiry to Gigabyte or Intel either directly or through their support forums.

You might find this SPCR thread helpful:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=64495

HFAT says that "underclocking and undervolting are not the same thing. You can almost always underclock. Undervolting is not supported."

That is, you can adjust the multiplier downwards with an unlocked processor but you can't control the VCore voltage.

Reading the above thread, I was reminded of one reason against the S and T CPUs that I forgot to mention:

Quote:
With current generations of intel CPUs it no longer makes sense to underclock or undervolt. They all run about 4 watts at idle.


And since a PC spends a lot of time idling....

That said, one reason why endpcnoise and other such firms use the S and T CPUs may be that it is a hardware solution. That adds a layer of security, since some users like to get under the hood and fiddle with the BIOS, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:48 am 
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Here's another useful link regarding S and T Intel core processors:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cor ... 04-15.html

I'm guessing that, by selecting the 3770S, you want to have your cake and eat it, too, namely low heat and high performance.

But if you have good cooling in your case--and the Temjin has it--the 3770 might be the better choice.

Also important is selection of mainboard and its power draw as part of the overall power efficiency of your system, and here I would compare the Gigabyte to Asus and especially Intel boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:33 am 
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MiniMatt wrote:
spcmhe wrote:
EDIT: Should probably add that using actual elastic bands, the kind we steal from the office stationary cupboard (hands up stationary kleptomaniacs) is probably not ideal. The rubber used will tend to perish and crack over time, better to get down to a craft store and splurge a whole dollar, maybe even two, on a length of sleeved elastic cord. But by all means prototype with any old laggy band / shoelace lying around.


Just a tip:

If you really want to use minimal cost elastic you can ask your mailman (if you're in Canada anyway) for a few of those nice blue elastic bands they use to bundle your mail. They are quite sturdy, flex well, come in a few different sizes and have considerable longevity - especially if you can get some new ones. I've used them for many projects, and even cut a few for rubber shims and they have proven a cheap reliable solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:30 am 
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MiniMatt wrote:
spcmhe wrote:
Regarding quieting the hard drive with "two rubber bands", is there a particular kit that is known to do a good job, or do you literally mean some sort of modding using two rubber bands? If the latter, is there a description of how to do it? (This is my first build, and I'm not familiar with these techniques.)


You can buy kits which look more professional such as the Tiche PC HDD Vibration Killer, which SCPR have reviewed favourably but all the commercial solutions are essentially prettying up the DIY solution Mike detailed back in the mists of time at http://www.silentpcreview.com/article8-page2.html - the photos there should see you right.

EDIT: Should probably add that using actual elastic bands, the kind we steal from the office stationary cupboard (hands up stationary kleptomaniacs) is probably not ideal. The rubber used will tend to perish and crack over time, better to get down to a craft store and splurge a whole dollar, maybe even two, on a length of sleeved elastic cord. But by all means prototype with any old laggy band / shoelace lying around.


Thanks, MiniMatt, for that info. In reading the links I also found this link http://www.silentpcreview.com/article22-page1.html which identifies possible temperature issues (as well as solutions) when using elastic bands. So if heat does become a problem, adding narrow aluminum side rails to the suspended drive should help. I'll also look for a drive that naturally runs cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:55 pm 
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RHN wrote:
Here's another useful link regarding S and T Intel core processors:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cor ... 04-15.html

I'm guessing that, by selecting the 3770S, you want to have your cake and eat it, too, namely low heat and high performance.

But if you have good cooling in your case--and the Temjin has it--the 3770 might be the better choice.

Also important is selection of mainboard and its power draw as part of the overall power efficiency of your system, and here I would compare the Gigabyte to Asus and especially Intel boards.

Thanks, RHN, for that tomshardware link.

I could have explained better, but I'm not seeking both low heat and high performance. Rather, I'm seeking: "cool and quiet", HS 4000 graphics, stability, and whatever performance is available within a 65 TDP envelope. The tomshardware article contrasts an HD 2500 S model with an HD 4000 K model, so that particular i5 S wouldn't work for me.

I appreciate your "underclocking a i5-3570K" suggestion, and if there is a well-known well-tested "stable, not to exceed 65 TDP" recipe, the i5-3570K does seem a money saver, provided the lower cost H77 board has the needed controls.

I'm puzzled as to why the tomshardware article is so negative about the S and T versions. They seem just right for a mass-produced all-in-one, versus the manufacturer having to individually underclock each system. Also, they seem a good choice for someone who wants to avoid a class of pitfalls (like discovering a chosen motherboard lacks a particular underclocking feature). So I'm comfortable with the i7-3770S (easy to say, as I don't have it yet).

Regarding "motherboard power draw", thanks for alerting me. There aren't many H77 motherboard reviews, but according to http://tinyurl.com/b52m26t, which compares 8 of them, the Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H board draws less power than the Asus choices at idle. Unfortunately, the roundup doesn't include Intel, so the Gigabyte is my current choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:53 am 
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spcmhe wrote:
Thanks, MiniMatt, for that info. In reading the links I also found this link http://www.silentpcreview.com/article22-page1.html which identifies possible temperature issues (as well as solutions) when using elastic bands. So if heat does become a problem, adding narrow aluminum side rails to the suspended drive should help. I'll also look for a drive that naturally runs cool.


I wouldn't worry unnecessarily on that front, certainly don't spend any money or go getting the dremel out before you know it's a problem. Remember some of the articles are a decade old now. Hard drives back then would be using a bit more power (and therefore generating a bit more heat) and certainly had noisier bearings. Operating temperature of hard drives is generally fine in the 60 degree C range (140F). It is unlikely that in a low heat system you're proposing with low TDP CPU and no discrete graphics card that your drives are going to reach anything close to 60 degrees whatever you do to them.

As an example, I've just this moment noticed, as in just this very moment, that my case fans - all three of them - are not running. Suspect that the included fan controller bundled with the Define Mini has burnt out. Now I'm not sure how long this has been the case, most likely since I turned it on this morning. Now I've not used it for anything taxing at all this morning, just forums, news & email but for at least an hour I've been running a case with only the CPU fan throttled to 20% (672RPM) and the GPU fan on tickover.

The reason I've not shut down in a panic and am content to carry on writing this post first, a quick temp check reveals:

System: 32c
CPU: 33c (73W TDP i3-530)
GPU: 30c (~80W TDP ATI HD7770)
HDD0: 23c (this is an SSD)
HDD1: 28c (this is a 2.5" hybrid app drive)

Ok, so those hard drives are never going to pump out much in the way of heat, but the overall temp profile of the case under light load with no case fans running whatsoever gives no immediate cause for concern. That said, I'll now sign off and investigate further as I suppose motherboard VRMs might be getting toastier than the vague "system" thermo sensor might indicate.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone TJ08-E or PS07 or ???
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:11 pm 
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MiniMatt wrote:
spcmhe wrote:
Thanks, MiniMatt, for that info. In reading the links I also found this link http://www.silentpcreview.com/article22-page1.html which identifies possible temperature issues (as well as solutions) when using elastic bands. So if heat does become a problem, adding narrow aluminum side rails to the suspended drive should help. I'll also look for a drive that naturally runs cool.


I wouldn't worry unnecessarily on that front, certainly don't spend any money or go getting the dremel out before you know it's a problem. Remember some of the articles are a decade old now. Hard drives back then would be using a bit more power (and therefore generating a bit more heat) and certainly had noisier bearings. Operating temperature of hard drives is generally fine in the 60 degree C range (140F). It is unlikely that in a low heat system you're proposing with low TDP CPU and no discrete graphics card that your drives are going to reach anything close to 60 degrees whatever you do to them.
As an example, I've just this moment noticed, as in just this very moment, that my case fans - all three of them - are not running. Suspect that the included fan controller bundled with the Define Mini has burnt out. Now I'm not sure how long this has been the case, most likely since I turned it on this morning. Now I've not used it for anything taxing at all this morning, just forums, news & email but for at least an hour I've been running a case with only the CPU fan throttled to 20% (672RPM) and the GPU fan on tickover.

The reason I've not shut down in a panic and am content to carry on writing this post first, a quick temp check reveals:

System: 32c
CPU: 33c (73W TDP i3-530)
GPU: 30c (~80W TDP ATI HD7770)
HDD0: 23c (this is an SSD)
HDD1: 28c (this is a 2.5" hybrid app drive)

Ok, so those hard drives are never going to pump out much in the way of heat, but the overall temp profile of the case under light load with no case fans running whatsoever gives no immediate cause for concern. That said, I'll now sign off and investigate further as I suppose motherboard VRMs might be getting toastier than the vague "system" thermo sensor might indicate.

Thanks MiniMatt.

After reading your post, I realized that my Dell Optiplex 330 uses a plastic caddy to hold the hard drive (i.e., poor heat transfer), and the drive receives no direct ventilation -- and even so it runs cool. (which confirms your point)

Since your reply, I ordered the PS07, and built the system. It works, but I'm confused about the temps reported by SpeedFan (27C at idle, 53C at load). But I'll ask these questions in a separate post.

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