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 Post subject: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Summary:
1) Should I keep using the Seasonic X-1050, or get my Zalman ZM-1000W back ?
2) Are there any 500-600W PSUs with watercooling ?
3) Would 520W be enough for my system ?
--

Recently I started the quest again for a silent gaming PC.
5-6 Years ago I ran a watercooled E8500 and 8800gtx.
I even had a watercooled PSU. No fans in the system at all.
Unfortunately the loop got clogged, and at some point my 8800gtx died.

Now I am trying again.
I have a i5-3570K and a gtx680.

During the last 5 years, I used a Zalman 1000W.
Two months ago, I needed a PSU for a second machine. I couldn't hold back, and bought a Seasonic X-1050. The X1050 is quiet during idle and desktop work. But when I start gaming, the fan spins up, and it does make a noticable amount of noise. I was a little disappointed.

My PC is not totally silent yet. But I am slowly getting there.
Two problems remain: the pump (Laing DDC-1T) and the PSU.

During idle and desktop, the only noise I hear is the Laing DDC-1T. I have undervolted it from 3900 rpm to 2700 rpm. (My estimate is that that's around 8V). The pump always seems to spin up fine). The undervolting did not change the volume of the pump much. Just the frequency. It is now my plan to put the pump outside my case, in an unused cupboard of my desk, and isolate it with loads of foam. (Temperature isn't an issue. My pump is wrapped in foam now too, and does not get hot at all).

When my pump is silent, the only remaining problem is the PSU when I play games.
So back to the PSU.

I will swap the Seasonic X-1050 with my old Zalman ZM-1000, just to test and compare them. But after reading the reviews on this website again, I don't think the ZM-1000W will be much more quiet. Maybe a bit at load. But I assume it will make slightly more noise when idle. So still not perfect. Has anyone even compared these two PSUs directly ? Any recommendation ?

Another option would be to go fanless. In my loop 5 years ago, I used to have a watercooled PSU. I loved that thing. Unfortunately it is only 360W or so. And old. So not good enough anymore. Are there still watercooled PSUs on the market ? Maybe this would be my favorite, if I could find a 600W watercooled PSU.

The last option would be the Seasonic Fanless 520W. I'm not very enthousiastic about it. Because of my slight disappointment with the X-1050. However, the review here is pretty good. But one problem is: is 520W enough for my machine ?

Current components: i5-3570K @ 4.2GHz, gtx-680, 1x SSD, 2x 5400 rpm HDD, ASRock Z77 Extreme4.
Fractal Design Arc Midi, with 3x 140mm fans (case) and 2x 120mm fans (radiatior). All undervolted to the minimum (~4V).
Waterblocks on CPU and GPU. 240mm radiator. Laing DDC-1T pump. Zalman Resorator1 reservoir.

Now when I use this tool to determine my PSU requirement, it suggests me to get a 600W PSU.
http://support.asus.com/powersupply.asp ... uage=en-en

When I look at Anandtech's review of the gtx680, they needed 362W at most.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5699/nvid ... -review/19
This was with a gtx680 and a i7-3960X @ 4.3GHz. The i7-3960X should be using more than my 3570k.
So what does my case have extra, compared to the Anandtech case ?
My waterpump ? 10W.
Five case-fans. 5x ~5W.
Two HDDs (only 5400rpm). 2x 15W.
Total of 65W extra max. So my machine might not take more Watts than 362W + 65W = 440W.
If that would be the case, then the Seasonic Fanless 520W would be enough.

So what do you think ?
1) Should I keep using the Seasonic X-1050, or get my Zalman ZM-1000W back ?
2) Are there any 500-600W PSUs with watercooling ?
3) Would 520W be enough for my system ?


I'm sorry I couldn't be more brief. I think all info given is relevant.
Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Guatemala
I have never tried the X-1050, but i do own a X660 and X400 and both been perfect, no issues at all, the X660 is on my gaming pc and its quiet even under load of the 2500k + GTX580, i see the fans spins under gaming but still very low. X 1050 should have a bunch of headroom in your setup, if it behaves like the x660 should be very quiet, but as i said i never have tried it personally, there are good reviews on SPCR, JonnyGuru and other sites about it being really good, so im not sure why yours is doing so much noise, specially with so much headroom it has for your current setup, maybe its another component thats making the noise or making it to work that hard...

Personally i wouldnt go fanless for a gaming PC, i do think it can handle it.... but you will need a decent airflow on the case for it to help cool itself, and for me, gives me piece of mind to have a fan inside to be used when it needed. Some seasonics specially on their platinum line are getting a lot of reviews with buzzing and coils, for this alone i would skip the 520, and look elsewhere, KINGWIN has a lot of different option on their platinum line that have gotten great reviews in here and jonnyguru, hardwaresecrets, etc. ranging from 550 to 1000W, and the price for example the 850 is really close to what you gona pay for the seasonic 520. I still think that the X 1050 should be more quiet than what you are experiencing.

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Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Gryzemuis wrote:
3) Would 520W be enough for my system ?


I think you answered your own question :)

If you aren't overvolting to get to 4.2GHz, then the math is roughly:
- CPU: (4.2GHz/3.4GHz)*77W = 95W
- mobo: ~ 30W plus a couple more watts of VRM power loss at 4.2GHz...call it 35W.
- GPU: 195W
- ~45W for the other stuff (5400rpm drives don't consume 15W ea).

Total: ~370W @ stressed load. More likely ~300W while gaming.

Yeah, 520W fanless is enough. Or, a decent low noise fanned PSU in the 550-650W range.

If you overvolt, then there's a bit more math.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Maybe my standards are too high ?

Maybe I should buy a soundmeter, so I can actually measure exact numbers. The values of 20dB or 40dB don't give me any impression of how loud something is. No clue, tbh.

My house is pretty silent. I live in the country, 1 mile from a small village. Neighbors and road are 100+ meters. And isolated glass and thick walls make sure very little sound enters the house when I don't have the windows open. It seems that the more noise I remove from my machine, the more irritating the remaining noise becomes. :)

I do have a good airflow through my machine. 2 inlet and 3 outlet fans. Fractal Design. When undervolted, they are actually really quiet. I don't hear the fans at all, just the air rushing through them. So I think I could do a fanless PSU. I'm tempted to open the X-1050, unplug or remove the fan, and put a quiet 140mm Fractal Design fan on it. However, I'm too afraid to really do that.

It seems there are no resellers of KINGWIN in my country (The Netherlands). Only one distributor in Europe, in Spain. I think buying one would be too problematic in case of RMA, etc.

I've undervolted my i5-3570K by 0.04V. However, the auto/offset settings does increase the voltage. At 4.2GHz, my CPU uses 1.2V. I think that's acceptable, and not much more than when running stock.

I did research the power usage of my HDDs (Samsung HD204UI). (Because I didn't have the faintest idea how much they would use).
http://www.storagereview.com/samsung_sp ... ew_hd204ui
It looks like they use 7W when running, but 13V when spinning up. I have my HDDs configured to be shut down after 20 minutes. So in theory, they could both spin up at the same time while I am playing a game. The 2x13W shouldn't matter much, but I just wanted to compute the worst realistic case.

I was also not sure if 520W means 520W output to the components. Or 520W drawn from the wall socket. I would assume power to components. But knowing vendors, I wouldn't doubt one of them would be smart enough to change his advertised numbers to power usage. Just so he could add another 10-20% to their numbers.

So it seems the Seasonic Fanless 520W is a realistic option. Now the question is: when I spend 190 euros 2 months ago to replace a perfectly fine 190 euros Zalman PSU with a X-1050, do I want to spend another 160 euros for a fanless 520W PSU ? It seems a bit overkill. But looking at what I spend in money and time during the last month to watercool my system, no amount of money seems crazy anymore ..... Maybe I should ebay one of my 2 PSUs.
The reports of coilwhine from the 520W holds me back for now.

Thanks for the replies.
I hope someone else can comment on whether the Zalman ZM-1000W is quieter under load than the X-1050. I will test it out during the next week. But
a) it's a lot of work, I'm not looking forward to it, and
b) replacing PSUs will take 30+ minutes. More even if I have to empty/refill my waterloop. With 30+ minutes between tests, I am not sure I will be able to objectively notice the difference in soundlevels.


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:27 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Gryzemuis wrote:
I was also not sure if 520W means 520W output to the components. Or 520W drawn from the wall socket.

It's the rated DC power output to the PC components.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
I just learned that the Kingwin Fanless Stryker 500W is sold in the Netherlands. Under a different name.

Supposedly it's the same thing as the Super Flower Golden Silent Fanless SF500P14FG PSU (500 Watt).
Sold in the Netherlands by 2 different webshops for around the same price as the Seasonic 520W Fanless PSU.

So now I have one more option .... Options, options ....


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:46 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Guatemala
Well if its the same as the Kingwin Stryker 500, then out of your options i would probably go with that one. There are a lot of reviews from good PSU review websites that have awarded it, even in SPCR got the editor choice,

SPCR Fanless PSUs: Kingwin Stryker STR-500 & Silverstone ST50NF
JonnyGuru Reviews - Kingwin Stryker Fanless 500W
[H]ardOCP Kingwin Stryker STR500 Power Supply Review
TechPowerUp Kingwin Stryker Fanless 500 W
PCer Kingwin Stryker 500W Fanless Power Supply Review
TweakTown Kingwin Stryker STR-500 500W Fanless Power Supply Review

Has very good raiting, almost perfect, in both amazon n newegg user reviews, so i would pick it over the Seasonic 520. Only 1 user review in more than 40 reviews reported a whine.

Quote:
This power supply works great, except for a very high-pitched whine some people can hear.

_________________
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Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
I couldn't control myself, and ordered a fanless PSU. (The SuperFlower/KingWin 500W one).
Thanks everyone for the comments.

Now the last part of my quest is to make my pump silent.
That's gonna involve some mechanical work. Well, for once I can say something is a "challenge". :)


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:28 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Guatemala
Gryzemuis wrote:
I couldn't control myself, and ordered a fanless PSU. (The SuperFlower/KingWin 500W one).
Thanks everyone for the comments.
Hope everything works out good for you. Btw be sure to share your experience with it, im also tempted on testing one of them, and always good to hear it from a user that value silence. Remember to have good air circulation and the PSU will still need it to cool itself.

Gryzemuis wrote:
Now the last part of my quest is to make my pump silent.
That's gonna involve some mechanical work. Well, for once I can say something is a "challenge". :)
Hope you find a way, for sure will be a challenge. I never have found a WP that its silent or even quiet, always ended as one of the most annoying noise on my PC, even undervolted. If you get tired of trying, there are some really good air coolers that can challenge low end WC, like Noctua NH-D14 or Thermalright Silver Arrow among others. Personally i find Therlmalright HR-02 Macho a really amazing cooler for the money, SPCR rated it with editor choice on their review.

Good luck,

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Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Thanks, maybe I will try to write up my experience with my new equipment for the benefit of others.

I spent a lot of time and money during the last weeks to get watercooling. I'm not going to give up and install a cpu cooler+fan. Also, my gtx680 is guaranteed to make so much noise, that watercooling it is certainly the right way to go. So I'll stick with watercooling. The only thing I need to keep an eye on is corrosion. In theory I should be fine, but you never know.

My computer is standing next to my old wooden desk. The desk has cupboards under it. I plan to saw a 10cm diameter hole in the back of one of the cupboards. Then I'll put the pump inside the cupboard, covered in thick layers of noise insulating foam. The pump is inside my case atm, in 2 layers of foam. It's not overheating, not even getting warm. And now that it is undervolted, it'll stay even more cool. The water through the pump should be more than enough cooling. There were reports that the 18W pumps could get really warm on the bottom. But I got a 10W pump (DDC-1T). If needed, I can always mount another coolingblock (an old generic gpu block, or NB/SB block) at the bottom of the pump. With 10 cms of foam on every 6 sides of the pump, it should be really quiet.


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
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My first test result is in.

Last few days I used my old Zalman ZM-1000W. When I ran the BioShock benchmark, I noticed
coil whine ! Note, the demo runs without sound, so you can hear any noise much better than
when just playing a game.
Fps was running at constant 60 (as expected). So I disabled (adaptive) vsync.
Fps was 110-140 average. But very interesting, the coil whine got noticably worse. Really bad. I'm sure
I wouldn't be able to tolerate it during gaming.

For the last 10 weeks, I used the Seasonic X-1050. I can't remember I heard any coil whine.
And I did run the BioShock benchmark a few times.

Today I installed the SuperFlower/Kingwin 500W fanless PSU.
First thing I did is run the BioShock benchmark.
No coil whine. Absolutely none at all !
So during the first hours, I am already very happy with my SuperFlower/Kingwin PSU.

I wonder what caused the coil whine ?
The ZM-1000W PSU itself ?
Or would the ZM-1000W give different/unstable current/voltage ? Which could cause certain components on the motherboard or videocard start to whine ?

I sold the Seasonic X-1050 online. For 75% of what I paid for it. Got several interested buyers in days. I hadn't expected that. I never tried to sell hardware online. Maybe I should do that more often. :-)

Next project: see with how few case-fans I can run my system. Fans are the only source of noise in my system now. (I put the pump in a cupboard, enclosed by 15cm of noise-isolating foam). I need at least one fan blowing air into the case, especially towards the fanless PSU. And I need (1 or) 2 fans to blow air out of the case, passing the radiator.


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:22 am 
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Location: 61.6° N, 29.5° E - Finland
Gryzemuis wrote:
I wonder what caused the coil whine ?
The ZM-1000W PSU itself ?
Or would the ZM-1000W give different/unstable current/voltage ? Which could cause certain components on the motherboard or videocard start to whine ?
There surely appears to be many causes for coil whine. Basically every part with power regulation circuitry has potential to make it.
Just read about case of PC whining while gaming with also heavy framerate drops/CPU load jumps which was obviously caused by core boost rising power consumption of already very power hungry AMD CPU above capabilities of motherboard's VRM and then even triggering throttling.
Also it's quite apparent there can be some kind interactions between healthy PSU and power drawing components making former whine.

But for your case I expect reason to be cheap (designed to fail) PSU's cooked up Chinese el Cheapo capacitors:
Those ripple results were plain horrible for new fresh PSU.
Add unreliable reliability of Chinese caps and hypepipesink slowing airflow and it's hard to know what that PSU will output after some use. Ripple is quite surely at dangerous level and probably also voltage regulation is suffering.
Loss of filtering capacitance no doubt also changes behaviour of current between load and coils in PSU's secondary.

Also the fact of problem appearing after PSU being not used (probably also stored in cooler) is strong indicator of failed capacitors.
Before throwing ZalCheap to electronics garbage I would hammer it down to definitely non functional state to prevent some sucker picking it up and possibly frying up his PC.
That's unless you give/sell it to someone who knows repairing PSUs or with receiver understanding that it's in potentially PC destroying condition and in need of recapping.

Would be better if they put those crap caps to primary/PFC because failure of primary just shuts PSU down permanently and doesn't have much of chances of destroying rest of the PC... Unlike failure of secondary.
And especially they shouldn't use bad cooling with them.
15 years ago also cheaper capacitors lasted longer in PSUs because of noisy high power cooling.

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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:08 am
Posts: 79
OP, I run an almost identical system to yours on a Seasonic 460W fanless with no problems at all (stock though, I don't OC)

1000


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 Post subject: Re: Zalman ZM-1000W, Seasonic X1050, or fanless ?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:31 am 
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Posts: 50
I picked up a used ZM-1000W off eBay a little while ago. After cleaning it out (previous owner mustn't have owned a vacuum cleaner!), I fired it up - like many, I thought it was dead. The fan didn't spin, and there was total silence - I was testing with an MSI miniITX B75 board, passive cooled Pentium G2020, and Samsung PM830 SSD. The little board that could, in this case couldn't get the Zalman's fan to spin up.

I'm now running the PSU in my workstation, which is also used to mine Bitcoins. With all three GPUs running it's drawing 660W from the mains, and even then the fan is barely spinning. OK, so I can't hear the PSU due to the GPU fans, but if the rest of my hardware was quiet, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hear the Zalman.

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