It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:16 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise lvl
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
So I finally bought it, replaced my old NXZT which had had some ugly vibration noises going plus the fans. Powered up the system on the R4. It's definitely more silent now, and the super annoying vibration noise is gone, but im still hearing the low rumble oscillating noise. A lot quieter now, but it's still there. I was expecting "near silence" judging by the comments from a lot of people, but when I powered the system than the fan noises are louder than I expected on there.

It's an overall improvement and at least now I have the foundations to build a legit silent PC by replacing all possible components with silence on mind, so where should I focus next?

This is my current setup:

MB: Gigabyte ga-x38-dq6
CPU: Q6600 at factory speeds
CPU FAN: Asus Silent Square Pro Cooler
Image
GPU: R7850 TWIN FROZR IV Power Edition OC at factory speeds
Image
PSU: Enermax Infinity 720W Modular

Yes, I know it's an old rig. I want to update my computer (except the GPU which I upgraded recently, also the PSU i think it's good enough?) with silence on mind. I still want to be able to play videogames decently, so im not that worried if under heavy workload it gets noisier. I just want near total silence when idle, because I work with audio, and when im producing music I can't tolerate any background noise (CPU gets hot with audio processing so I'll need something really good on there).

Any suggestions?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 682
Location: Gefle, Sweden
"Low rumble oscillating noise" could be if you have a couple or more harddrives that vibrate in slightly different rythms, where they harmonise every few seconds or so making it more discernable. If that might be the case, try loosening the drive screws(the ones with the big flat heads) a bit in case you screwed them in tight. To avoid compressing the anti vibration grommets much, as that makes them less effective.

_________________
i5-3570K at 4 GHz Turbo, HR-02 Macho w/o fan, MSI R9 290 Gaming, Fractal Design Define R4, 2 front fans, 1 exhaust. 2 SSD's and a quiet Seagate 4TB (ST4000DM000) HDD, Seasonic P-460FL (no squealing).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
mkk wrote:
"Low rumble oscillating noise" could be if you have a couple or more harddrives that vibrate in slightly different rythms, where they harmonise every few seconds or so making it more discernable. If that might be the case, try loosening the drive screws(the ones with the big flat heads) a bit in case you screwed them in tight. To avoid compressing the anti vibration grommets much, as that makes them less effective.


I simply removed all the harddrives and booted without any hardrives and the rumble was still audible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
silenceorgtfo wrote:
but im still hearing the low rumble oscillating noise. A lot quieter now, but it's still there. I was expecting "near silence" judging by the comments from a lot of people, but when I powered the system than the fan noises are louder than I expected on there.
The case is a good base to build your quiet computer, but it wont do miracles, if you have noisy components it will remain noisy, the best is to what you are doing now to search for quiet components to end up with a quiet computer.

silenceorgtfo wrote:
CPU gets hot with audio processing so I'll need something really good on there
The best CPU coolers are the Noctua NH-D14, Thermalright Silver Arrow, Prolimatch Genesis and Phanteks PH-TC14PE, all are huge and perform very similar, and expensive. Personally i think Thermalright HR-02 Macho is one of the best performer for what it costs, but it depends where you buy it also, it should fit the R4 fine, and even match the black n white theme of the R4. The included fan is decent, it can be droped off to around 700rpm (if your mobo can control PWM fans), but if you want lower there are lots of PWM fans that can go lower like Scythe Slipstream PWM, Noctua NF-F12, etc, but i would test the included fan first to me its good enough performance/noise.

silenceorgtfo wrote:
I just want near total silence when idle, because I work with audio, and when im producing music I can't tolerate any background noise
The best would be to isolate what component is doing the noise, if you can try to boot with another gpu to rule out the gpu. I can boot with no fan on my on my cpu heatsink MicroMi build, the HR02 is good enough to cool it just by passive air moving through the case, specially if no load is present, but im not sure how will the Q6600 react or how good is Asus cooler... might be risky, but you could try stopping it briefly just to see if the noise continues. Also boot with case fans not connected, wth the case opened, and see if the noise continues to rule out the case fans, etc.

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
It's not the GPU. With my old GPU, the exact same rumble noise was present. This GPU is pretty silent during idle I reckon.

I've used SpeedFan to bring down the CPU cooller to 0% for some seconds. I've figured out the CPU fan is the fan noise that im hearing the most. When I set it to 0%, the remaining fan noises are quiet enough to have a pleasant experience. So I think i've realized I have to focus on CPU fan now. Thing is, I don't want to buy anything new because I don't think any of these fans you mentioned are compatible with my motherboard which is pretty old now. I would need to update the whole thing (new MB, CPU, CPU fan + new memories, im still using DDR2 lol)
Also, the low end rumble is still present when I drop CPU fan speed to 0%, so it's not the GPU, not the CPU fan, not the case fans. What's left is the PSU fan or something else that is making the vibration (not a fan, but a vibrating component?)

About the speed of the case fans, I think it's not doing anything, cos im moving from 12 v to 7 to 5 and I don't notice any difference. Maybe the CPU fan noise is overlapping whatever audible difference there is.

Hows my PSU in terms of noise?

PS: Just checked on the Noctua webpage, pretty amazing how it's so detailed about compatibility. My MB is compatible, im pretty surprised:

http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=comp ... 5_Gigabyte


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
silenceorgtfo wrote:
I've used SpeedFan to bring down the CPU cooller to 0% for some seconds. I've figured out the CPU fan is the fan noise that im hearing the most. When I set it to 0%, the remaining fan noises are quiet enough to have a pleasant experience. So I think i've realized I have to focus on CPU fan now. Thing is, I don't want to buy anything new because I don't think any of these fans you mentioned are compatible with my motherboard which is pretty old now. I would need to update the whole thing (new MB, CPU, CPU fan + new memories, im still using DDR2 lol)

PS: Just checked on the Noctua webpage, pretty amazing how it's so detailed about compatibility. My MB is compatible, im pretty surprised:

http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=comp ... 5_Gigabyte
The Nocuta NH-D14 should come wth 3pin fans, and also comes with LN and ULN 3pin adapter that are resistors to slower the fans or control them with speedfan. There are other options also from Noctua if you find that too big or too expensive for your liking, but still today is among the best air coolers on the market. Its good that you have checked out the MB compatibility =)

Image

silenceorgtfo wrote:
Also, the low end rumble is still present when I drop CPU fan speed to 0%, so it's not the GPU, not the CPU fan, not the case fans. What's left is the PSU fan or something else that is making the vibration (not a fan, but a vibrating component?)
Well if you were able to stop everything with the speed fan and you know its not GPU, then you only left the PSU and the Motherboard, some of them squeal or have some high pitch, but never heard a low end rumble from either. Could be an optical drive also, sometimes they load and keep a swosh...

silenceorgtfo wrote:
About the speed of the case fans, I think it's not doing anything, cos im moving from 12 v to 7 to 5 and I don't notice any difference. Maybe the CPU fan noise is overlapping whatever audible difference there is.
Can you at least feel it? could be that your ambient noise is high and you dont percieve the difference of slowing the fans or that you didnt connect the fans to the fan controller (maybe you connected them directly to motherboard or 4pin moles etc).

silenceorgtfo wrote:
Hows my PSU in terms of noise?
Im not familiar with your specific PSU, but enermax has manufacture some nice psu in the past, but not all are good always even from good manufacturers. If you find out its the PSU whats causing the noise, and you cant do anything, then consider Seasonic G550, its a nice semi modular PSU, very quiet and in the US its price is decent, not sure on spain. If you wish to read some reviews,

JonnyGuru Reviews - Seasonic G Series 550W
HardwareSecrets Seasonic G 550 Power Supply Review
[H]ardOCP Seasonic G-Series: G-550 Power Supply Review

Or if you wish to go passive, in Europe Super flower sells the equivalent of the Kingwin Striker 500 or Rosewill Silent 500, check the following reviews,

Fanless PSUs: Kingwin Stryker STR-500
Rosewill Silent Night 500 Platinum 80 Plus

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


Last edited by Abula on Sat May 18, 2013 7:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
I will need to check about "LN and ULN 3pin adapter that are resistors to slower the fans." cos I have no idea about that, I've only seen classic 3 pin ones so far. I guess thats for hardware fan control? but whats the point? I can control my current CPU fan easy with Speedfan with a click. Right now its at 100% and it's running at 2437 RPM. Will I notice a big difference from this to the Noctua D14 at 100% too?
I can't go lower than 100% with my current fan or else Speedfan flame icon starts showing up at Core0 (it gets at around 41C). In the winter there shouldn't be a problem, but I would like decent cooling all year long with near total silence at least during idle so I guess its time to upgrade.

About 12-7-5 I cant feel any changes. Maybe the background noise is too much, plus the CPU fan noise is too heavy to notice subtleties.

I think i'll get the Noctua NH-D14 if it deliver the best silence/performace on the market, im not worried about money plus Noctua seems like a solid brand. What worries me is that if by the time I chose to upgrade the rest of the computer, a new MB socket is out that isn't compatible with the Noctua NH-D14, that would suck.

But I just need the change on the CPU fan and if it's really barely audible people is saying, the change compared to my old case and old CPU would be insane, it would be near audible already at least at daytime.

I'll try to remove the optical dvd drive later and see what happens but I think I once tried removing it and the rumble was still there.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:51 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4243
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
I believe Noctua and Thermalright provide new mounting/adapter hardware for free if your future CPU doesn't work with existing h/w. The D14 will certainly run rings around your current cooler for both noise and temps. Too bad you are still on Socket 775, as the new NH-U14S is even quieter than the NH-D14.

Here's a way to help find the noise: makeshift stethoscope. Paper towel cardboard tube or something similar. Or, a short length of rubber hose.

PSU: One upside to a PSU upgrade, new PSU will be higher efficiency -> less heat. So, you can go passive or semi-passive on the PSU.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
silenceorgtfo wrote:
I will need to check about "LN and ULN 3pin adapter that are resistors to slower the fans." cos I have no idea about that, I've only seen classic 3 pin ones so far. I guess thats for hardware fan control? but whats the point? I can control my current CPU fan easy with Speedfan with a click. Right now its at 100% and it's running at 2437 RPM. Will I notice a big difference from this to the Noctua D14 at 100% too?
I can't go lower than 100% with my current fan or else Speedfan flame icon starts showing up at Core0 (it gets at around 41C). In the winter there shouldn't be a problem, but I would like decent cooling all year long with near total silence at least during idle so I guess its time to upgrade.
First i will suggest you to check the SPCR review on it, Noctua NH-D14 flagship dual-fan CPU cooler you will find a lot more info there. About the it bieng run at 100% end up quieter... probably, the fans that come with the NH-D14 will not spin as high as your current 2400rpm, if i remember correctly i think the most they reach is 1300rpm, but even then with the massive amount of heat dissipation area of the NH-D14 and twin fans, you should get lower temps at a lower noise, personally i like to run my fans below 1000rpm, so i would still adjust them via speed fan or with the resistors (what ever you like).

silenceorgtfo wrote:
I think i'll get the Noctua NH-D14 if it deliver the best silence/performace on the market, im not worried about money plus Noctua seems like a solid brand. What worries me is that if by the time I chose to upgrade the rest of the computer, a new MB socket is out that isn't compatible with the Noctua NH-D14, that would suck.
The cooler has been out for more than 3 years now, and as you seen there have been updates on the mounting mechanism and still sells fine. Unless mobos design change radically i think you should be able to move on with the cooler to newer setups, also noctua is said (i never have tried) to give free mounting upgradaes for newer platforms. Noctua will most likely keep on updating their mobo compatibility chart so before you upgrade your mobo, do the same and check it before buying.

silenceorgtfo wrote:
About 12-7-5 I cant feel any changes. Maybe the background noise is too much, plus the CPU fan noise is too heavy to notice subtleties.
If you cant hear it, you still should be able to feel it, place your hand on the back of the case near where the exhaust 140mm is, and with your other hand switch the fan controller inside the door, see if you fan feel more or less air when you move the switches, else you don't have the fans connected to the fan controller. Btw if you go with the Super flower 500 W passive PSU, i would probably add an extra Fractal 140mm fan to the front so you create positive pressure and ensure the PSU will act as an exhaust, helping it cool itself by the air that will move through it.

This is the model that you will most likely find available in Europe, JonnyGuru Reviews - Super Flower Golden Silent 500W Fanless. Upon searching more it seems kingwin does have a distributor on spain,

Quote:
Importaciones Tecnológicas Del Sureste S.L.L
NO.3048,Av Juan Ramon Jimenez 1
Calasparra, Murcia
30420
Tel: +34 968 723 00
pedidos@itds.es

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


Last edited by Abula on Sat May 18, 2013 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:17 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:09 am
Posts: 1726
Location: Northern California.
my money's on the PSU fan bearings failing, or the fan being unbalanced.

-try booting into bios with the psu fan stopped with a stick, piece of plastic or folded paper, and seen if the noise is still there. if not try the same technique with the other fans. do this with all opti and hdd's discontented.

_________________
“USA is not America, America is a continent!”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
Are passive cooled PSU's really safe?
Whats the heaviest setup you can run on these 550W passive ones?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4243
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
silenceorgtfo wrote:
Are passive cooled PSU's really safe?

Sure. The good ones are all 80+ Platinum now. So, very little in the way of waste heat.

silenceorgtfo wrote:
Whats the heaviest setup you can run on these 550W passive ones?

Depends on what other cooling you have. If you have great case cooling, then 550W. If it's less than stellar, I'd limit it to ~475W.

That said, your current setup draws maybe 290W under stressed load (CPU and GPU @ 100%). 105W for the CPU, 130W for the GPU, and call it 50W for everything else.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
silenceorgtfo wrote:
Are passive cooled PSU's really safe?
Whats the heaviest setup you can run on these 550W passive ones?
Here is a thread of SPCR forum member using the Striker 500 or Superflower 500 passive, Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans)., he is running a i5 3570k overclocked @ 4.0ghz and GTX680 + watercooling setup + ssd + 2x mechanical hdds + fans, so it can drive a pretty good system, so you should be fine and the PSU will no longer generate any noise.

Remember the PSU will need some airflow to cool itself, i would probably add the second fan to the front of your R4, so you create postive preassure and uses the PSU as an exit of air helping it cool itself and also preventing it to become an intake for dust.

If you still dont feel confortable with a totally fanless PSU, maybe a Hybrid (passive/active) PSU might interest you, from the same manufacturer Kingwin (Superflower) has one 550W, check SPCR Kingwin Lazer Platinum 550W Power Supply, they also make higher power PSU (650/750/850/1000).

Image

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Spain, Europe
That setup is an already very powerful setup for next gen gaming, so im pretty impressed.

What would be quieter, the passive PSU with the extra front fan on the R4, or the hybrid one? considering the case fan is a constant noise.

Also, are the 2 default fans from the R4 worth replacing for other quieter fans or not?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally bought the define R4. Still not happy with noise
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
silenceorgtfo wrote:
What would be quieter, the passive PSU with the extra front fan on the R4, or the hybrid one? considering the case fan is a constant noise.
Its hard to say, but my guess is the pasive/active vs 1 extra case fan, the LPZ550 will be passive until it hits 65C, so it will be most of the time passive until you drop some load on it, and even then it will be very quiet. But there are a little more user reports on lpz also having some high pitch whine while the Striker 500 has very very few. But I would prefer the case fan for other reasons, like having positive pressure on the case, this will help with the dust build up, my guess is that with the LPZ550 being passive most of the time it will start becoming a intake sucking dust inside, same case as with the striker500, but the extra front case you can undervolt it with the built in fan controler of the R4 to 5/7/12V and according to what you hole setup needs you can tweak it. So if it were me, i would just go with the striker500, but either choice seems fine.

silenceorgtfo wrote:
Also, are the 2 default fans from the R4 worth replacing for other quieter fans or not?
Personally i havent tested them, i just bought an R4 since it was at $80, but still on the boat to me so idk, but accroding to Fractal Design Silent Series R2 140mm review they seem fine, they can undervolt fine and since the R4 has the fan controler with 12/7/5V it should be decent choice, but its tone and sound caracteristics has to be experience by the user, if you like them i dont see a reason why not keep using them,

Quote:
Test at 5V:
The first test was conducted at 5V and in this test the model reached 495 revolutions per minute and maximum airflow level of 37.44 cubic metres per hour. In this test, Fractal Design Silent Series R2 140mm was absolutely silent.

Test at 7V:
The second test was conducted at 7v and in this test the maximum airflow level reached was 57.12 cubic metres per hour at 705 revolutions per minute. Again the fan was completely silent.

Test at 9V:
The third test was conducted at 9V and the fan reached 900 revolutions per minute with airflow level of 74.4 cubic metres per hour. In this test there was a tiny noise coming from the air passing through the propeller. It was not possible to hear it from a distance bigger than 100 mm.

Test at 12V:
The last test was conducted at 12V and at this voltage the fan reached its maximum performance of 89.28 cubic metres per hour at only 1050 revolutions per minute. The noise coming from the air passing through the proppeler slightly increased but still was barely audible.

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group