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 Post subject: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Earlier this year a new and apparently reproductible cold fusion method has emerged, the 'Rossi reactor' or 'Energy Catalyzer'.
It claims to fuse Nickel and Hidrogen, with the production of Copper (which may decay), and generate as much heat from 58 g
of Nickel as about 30,000 tons of oil. There is a patent on the technology, and two companies, one in Greece and one in the USA,
that will commercialize reactors build based on this cold fusion method. Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RossiAmethodanda.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Thanks for the links Tzupy, they're an interesting read. I guess the next step is October....
I'll have to admit I'm quite skeptical about this thing though ; if this guy really has something, he should have kept his mouth shut until he had a working patented prototype ready for a serious peer review. Right now, there isn't much more than a mystery ECat device to go by... If this thing does work, I'm going to buy lots and lots of nickel :) The next thing to invent, a machine that transforms copper back into nickel :mrgreen:

Also, this may produce some energy, but it is not a renewable energy ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:03 pm 
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I've been following this a little bit on a different site, and yeah, it sounds fairly fishy. It would be great if it worked, and I hope they can pull it off, but it seems like the testing that has been done under very controlled circumstances where those testing it couldn't see certain parts. And the science is still very speculative, they talk about quantum interactions that create low energy nuclear reactions, but some of the observations they've made don't add up with the theory. So it would be nice to see it work, but I wouldn't count on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:44 am 
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The lure of cold fusion has been a David's sling for the nuclear industry for far too long. It's not going to happen in our age but the idea/myth keeps us investing in a stupid technology tree.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:09 pm 
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I don't see "scam" written on this, because it's the wrong milieu for a scam. Where I do see scam is in ITER, the hot fusion experimental reactor, which will continue to get grants for decades to come for a nebulous and likely futile goal.

We know this represents a big threat, and we've seen how even the most mundane of threatening technologies, by some unpublicized agency or other, don't seem to make it to the big time.

This could end up not being workable, but I don't think I'm being too cynical to think that it's more likely to be sabotaged.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:32 pm 
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I'd say you're being too cynical and not cynical enough.

It won't be sabotaged because no-one in the industry is going to believe that there's anything to sabotage. It's most likely just one more energy for nothing scam. There are too many gullible investors willing to be ripped off over this kind of thing. (It'd be great if it were real, but Occam's Razor would indicate otherwise.)


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:31 pm 
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I must confess that I am a 'believer' in 'cold-fusion', since Pons and Fleischmann have published their results.
Even if those results were never reliably and consistently reproduced (or at least not accepted as such by the scientific community).
A reason for still believing in their results was this patent that I found many years ago, about generating neutrons with a device
inspired by the Pons-Fleischmann experiment:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... lattice%29
When the US government (actually the Navy) patents something, it's probably not a bogus technology.

Now back to the Rossi reactor: if it's a scam, it's going to be exposed as such within 4-5 months.
The Defkalion company that manufactures the reactors plans to make and sell 300,000 a year, as home heaters.
With a power of about 20-30 kW, and much more expensive than the gas heaters. We'll see who will buy them.
They say that first the home heaters / reactors have to pass the Greek government's inspection for safety.
Hmm, I wish this wouldn't depend on the Greek government, it has the least credibility in the whole UE now...

A couple of worrisome points: the minimum operating capacity is 2.5 kW, I wonder what could happen if you run out of
water (like when the water company does some digging / repairing)? Would the reactor suffer the equivalent of a melt-down?
According to the reports, a nominal 10 kW unit can ocasionally reach 130 kW, could this be a the path to a chain reaction?
If the technology works and is not a scam, with 300,000 units operational that could be turned into nuclear bombs, then
the end of this civilization could come by 21st December 2012... Hmm, I think I should hope it's a scam...


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:48 pm 
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Fantastic! This sounds like just the thing I need to power the warp drive I built last night. Now, what to do with all that copper?


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:11 am 
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judge56988 wrote:
Fantastic! This sounds like just the thing I need to power the warp drive I built last night. Now, what to do with all that copper?


Make electronics! Cheaper copper = cheaper computer components.
It's win-win!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:30 am 
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Tzupy wrote:
A couple of worrisome points: the minimum operating capacity is 2.5 kW, I wonder what could happen if you run out of
water (like when the water company does some digging / repairing)? Would the reactor suffer the equivalent of a melt-down?
According to the reports, a nominal 10 kW unit can ocasionally reach 130 kW, could this be a the path to a chain reaction?
If the technology works and is not a scam, with 300,000 units operational that could be turned into nuclear bombs, then
the end of this civilization could come by 21st December 2012... Hmm, I think I should hope it's a scam...


how does nickel = nuclear bomb?

the goal of fusion is taking stable elements and combining them into other stable elements, and extracting energy from that process.

the goal of fission is taking inherently unstable elements and doing a controlled split on them.

neither one will produce a bomb.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:44 am 
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A long time after the initial post, this thread is worth ressurecting :wink:
Today 20th May 2013 the first independent scientific report on the E-Cat has been released:
http://ecat.com/files/Indication-of-ano ... device.pdf
And an article in Forbes about the long-awaited report:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2 ... after-all/


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:38 am 
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Fayd wrote:
How does nickel = nuclear bomb?

the goal of fusion is taking stable elements and combining them into other stable elements, and extracting energy from that process.

the goal of fission is taking inherently unstable elements and doing a controlled split on them.

neither one will produce a bomb.


Latest information on the topic is that the Rossi reactors can explode, in fact hundreds have exploded during testing.
It's not fusion nor fission, but LENR. A full theoretical explanation is not yet available, but several scientists are working on one.
Link to article about the exploding reactors: http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/rossi ... formation/


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:23 am 
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Tzupy wrote:
Fayd wrote:
How does nickel = nuclear bomb?

the goal of fusion is taking stable elements and combining them into other stable elements, and extracting energy from that process.

the goal of fission is taking inherently unstable elements and doing a controlled split on them.

neither one will produce a bomb.


Latest information on the topic is that the Rossi reactors can explode, in fact hundreds have exploded during testing.
It's not fusion nor fission, but LENR. A full theoretical explanation is not yet available, but several scientists are working on one.
Link to article about the exploding reactors: http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/rossi ... formation/

The explosions, as the article described, were produced deliberately to find out the safety limits of the device. What's a little puzzling is that the publicized experiments of the last year and a half or so have been done with units built to run at higher temperatures ("Hot Cats") than those that got the original publicity .

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:50 pm 
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If this device is for real, it's not going to change the world greatly all that fast, because that's not the way things work. The total effect that any invention has had on the world is not just a function of what percentage of the populace has come to adopt it, but also simply of how much time it's been around. What has been around for a longer time is also, of course, more fundamental.

On the other side of the coin, this device has the potential to prevent change, which is just as powerful an effect as causing it.

Here I am speculating on something that has not yet passed out of the realm of fantasy, and may never do so. Still, it's stirring up the first rumblings of the turmoil that occurs when a new device hits the world fully birthed.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:37 pm 
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The inventor (Andrea Rossi) has previously been involved in a string of different crazy energy source ideas, none of which have materialised and also served time in prison for dumping toxic waste and tax fraud:
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 7020.shtml

Not meaning to put you off or anything...

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:08 pm 
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The company (Industrial Heat) that has aquired the IP rights to the Rossi reactor revealed itself with an official press release:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/press ... echnology/


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:28 am 
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The latest scientific report on the E-cat, link:
http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp- ... Submit.pdf

And the summary of the report (page 30):

A 32-day test was performed on a reactor termed E-Cat, capable of producing heat by exploiting an unknown reaction primed by heating and some electro-magnetic stimulation. In the past years, the same collaboration has performed similar measurements on reactors operating in like manner, but differing both in shape and construction materials from the one studied here. Those tests have indicated an anomalous production of heat, which prompted us to attempt a new, longer test. The purpose of this longer measurement was to verify whether the production of heat is reproducible in a new improved test set-up, and can go on for a significant amount of time. In order to assure that the reactor would operate for a prolonged length of time, we chose to supply power to the E-Cat in such a way as to keep it working in a stable and controlled manner. For this reason, the performances obtained do not reflect the maximum potential of the reactor, which was not an object of study here.
Our measurement, based on calculating the power emitted by the reactor through radiation and convection, gave the following results: the net production of the reactor after 32 days’ operation was (5825 ± 10%) [MJ], the density of thermal energy (if referred to an internal charge weighing 1 g) was (5.8 ∙ 106 ± 10%) [MJ/kg], while the density of power was equal to (2.1 ∙ 106 ± 10%) [W/kg]. These values place the E-Cat beyond any other known conventional source of energy. Even if one conservatively repeats the same calculations with reference to the weight of the whole reactor rather than that of its internal charge, one gets results confirming the non-conventional nature of the form of energy generated by the E-Cat, namely (1.3 ∙ 104 ± 10%) [MJ/kg] for thermal energy density, and (4.7 ∙ 103 ± 10%) [W/kg] for power density.
The quantity of heat emitted constantly by the reactor and the length of time during which the reactor was operating rule out, beyond any reasonable doubt, a chemical reaction as underlying its operation. This is emphasized by the fact that we stand considerably more than two order of magnitudes from the region of the Ragone plot occupied by conventional energy sources.
The fuel generating the excessive heat was analyzed with several methods before and after the experimental run. It was found that the Lithium and Nickel content in the fuel had the natural isotopic composition before the run, but after the 32 days run the isotopic composition has changed dramatically both for Lithium and Nickel. Such a change can only take place via nuclear reactions. It is thus clear that nuclear reactions have taken place in the burning process. This is also what can be suspected from the excessive heat being generated in the process.
Although we have good knowledge of the composition of the fuel we presently lack detailed information on the internal components of the reactor, and of the methods by which the reaction is primed. Since we are presently not in possession of this information, we think that any attempt to explain the E-Cat heating process would be too much hampered by the lack of this information, and thus we refrain from such discussions.
In summary, the performance of the E-Cat reactor is remarkable. We have a device giving heat energy compatible with nuclear transformations, but it operates at low energy and gives neither nuclear radioactive waste nor emits radiation. From basic general knowledge in nuclear physics this should not be possible. Nevertheless we have to relate to the fact that the experimental results from our test show heat production beyond chemical burning, and that the E-Cat fuel undergoes nuclear transformations. It is certainly most unsatisfying that these results so far have no convincing theoretical explanation, but the experimental results cannot be dismissed or ignored just because of lack of theoretical understanding. Moreover, the E-Cat results are too conspicuous not to be followed up in detail. In addition, if proven sustainable in further tests the E-Cat invention has a large potential to become an important energy source. Further investigations are required to guide the interpretational work, and one needs in particular as a first step detailed knowledge of all parameters affecting the E-Cat operation. Our work will continue in that direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:41 am 
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Easy way to prove that it's nuclear:
- Take one sample and put it in a mass spectrometer and also do MR to look at chemical composition
- Use a device for a certain amount of time, compare it's starting and finishing mass, then take another sample for mass spec and MR.

Compare the results and it will prove if it's nuclear or chemical.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:04 am 
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A successful replication of the Lugano test, by Russian scientist Alexander Parkhomov, link to English translation:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/254323365/Par ... 29-English

Update April 16th:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/16/te ... lications/


Last edited by Tzupy on Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:52 am 
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Scientific paper (preprint) by Norman Cook and Andrea Rossi, trying to explain the experimental results:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1504/1504.01261.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:40 am 
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I was waiting for more news, in order to compile a comprehensive update on Rossi's work, when this came up.
I found it very interesting, so I copied it below, with minor edits, just in case the original dissapears. You can find the original here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/06/lo ... eischmann/

Louis DeChiaro of US Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) on Replicating Pons and Fleischmann
Posted on October 6, 2015 by Frank Acland

Thanks to Adrian Ashfield for sharing this information with me who tells me this information comes from the research notes of Louis F. DeChiaro, Ph.D, a physicist with the US Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA), Dahlgren Warfare Center. I am told this text has been cleared for public dissemination.
As for duplicating the Pons and Fleischmann results, we now have a much better understanding of the phenomenon, and the list of prerequisite conditions is rather lengthy. Failure to meet even one of those conditions results in zero excess energy output. The data suggest that there may be more than one initiation mechanism, so I’m most qualified to comment upon what is known as the atomic vibrational LENR initiation mechanism (because my formal background is in Condensed Matter Physics). If one had to summarize the list in a fairly brief manner, I would write it as follows:

1. It is necessary to set up conditions favoring the formation of molecular hydrogen (H2 or D2) inside the solid lattice for a certain range of possible values of lattice constant and for some fraction of the allowed values for electron momentum. This condition alone rules out almost ALL the elemental , because the electron density is just too large to permit molecules to form, except near vacancies in the lattice where a metal atom is absent.
2. The overall hydrogen loading fraction (ratio of hydrogen to palladium atoms, for example) must exceed the minimum threshold of about 0.88, otherwise the “party” never even gets started. Achieving this level of loading in Pd is not trivial.
3. Conditions must be set up (by appropriate choice of materials parameters and achieved by the right kind of alloying) so that these hydrogen molecules can be caused to break up and then re-assemble very rapidly in a periodic time sequence when an appropriate physical quantity such as background electric charge, magnetic field, etc. is made to oscillate periodically over a small range.
4. The critical value of lattice constant at which this break up and reassembly occurs must lie very close to the nominal value of lattice constant for which the ground state energy of the lattice is minimal. This requirement alone rules out essentially all of the elemental lattices and about 99% of the binary and ternary alloys.
5. A departure from equilibrium must be established that will permit an external energy source (eg. the DC power supply in an electrolysis experiment and/or a pair of low power lasers as in the Letts/Hagelstein two laser experiment) to feed energy into the H-H or D-D stretching mode vibrations. The difference in chemical potential that is established in gas loading experiments can also serve very nicely; in this case the flux feeds energy into the stretching mode vibrations.
6. The nature of the lattice must permit these stretching mode vibrations to grow so large (over a period of perhaps many nanoseconds) that their amplitude becomes comparable to the lattice constant. When this occurs, the H atoms oscillate so violently that at the instants of closest approach, the curvature of the parabolic energy wells in which the atomic nuclei vibrate will become perturbed. Thus the curvature of the well oscillates as a periodic function of time. These very large amplitude vibrations are known as superoscillations in the Western literature and as “discrete breathers” in the Ukrainian literature. Under the right conditions, these oscillations can grow without impacting the atoms, which are much more massive than the hydrogens. We explored this computationally via Density Functional Molecular Dynamics runs.
7. When the curvatures of the parabolic energy wells of the nuclei are modulated at a frequency very near the natural resonant frequency, the quantum expectation value of the nuclear wave function spatial spread will oscillate with time in such a way that the positive-going peaks grow exponentially with time. Originally, I found this idea in the Ukrainian literature and was skeptical. So, we verified it by doing a direct numerical solution of the time-dependent Schrodinger Equation for a single nuclear particle in a parabolic energy well. These oscillations in spatial spread will periodically delocalize the nucleus and facilitate the tunneling of adjacent nuclei into the Strong Force attractive nuclear potential well, giving rise to nuclear fusion at rates that are several tens of orders of magnitude larger than what one calculates via the usual Gamow Factor integral relationship.

Almost none of this material was obvious back in 1989. Without knowing what one is doing and why it works, the probability of achieving successful results via the so-called Edisonian method of trial and error is disappointingly low. Reasonable scientists and engineers can be forgiven for their difficulty in believing that there might exist ANY circumstances under which such things could be possible. And to be blunt, it was only in the last few months that the causal chain finally became clear.
An old saying holds that it is easy to appear tall when standing on the shoulders of giants. My colleagues and I are most humbly grateful to have been given the opportunity to stand on the shoulders of such giants, however briefly.
I would also suggest that some praise might be due to people like Andrea Rossi, who (by and large) had little alternative but to employ the Edisonian method and nevertheless appear to have obtained positive results. We have run materials simulations (also known as Density Functional Theory simulations) on our best guess of Rossi’s alloy material. It satisfies all the conditions given above, while pure Nickel does not.

In like manner, the Naval Research Labs (NRL) ran over 300 experiments using pure Pd cathodes, all of them yielding negative results. Then somebody suggested that NRL should try an alloy of 90% Pd and 10% Rh. The very first such alloy cathode they tried yielded over 10,000 Joules of excess thermal energy – all from less than 1 gram of cathode material. I ran Density Functional Theory simulations on that alloy, and it, too, satisfies all the conditions given above, while pure Pd and pure Rh do not.
NRL christened this cathode with the name Eve, after the obvious Biblical analogy. I’m pleased to share the news that Eve had a number of “sisters” who produced equal and even greater excess thermal energy, among a number of other more interesting effects. Finally, I can observe that the materials simulations now make it fairly easy to evaluate any given solid lattice material and estimate its level of LENR activity. We have good correlations between the simulation results and the known levels of experimentally-determined LENR activity in a number of different alloys whose dominant elements come from the Transition Metal Group of the Periodic Table. Hopefully, we will be able to get all the details of this material released for publication to the general public over the next few weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:41 am 
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Thanks again, Tzupy, for keeping us informed.

If this is truly for real then it's big news. I won't pretend that I was able to decipher the numbered paragraphs, and I suspect that only those in the field and up to date would be able to do so.

Palladium and rhodium aren't cheap (and their prices are volatile), but the author said that other Transition Metals proved useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:01 pm 
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'Fraid this sounds a lot like BS to me. If there were anything to it, I'd expect some buzz, but there doesn't seem to be any. The concept of cold fusion is so appealing that it only takes a shred of credibility to make a bit of a splash in the media.

On the other hand, the scientific community does have a knee-jerk disregard for all things cold fusion, so it's possible that this is real but no one's bothered to notice. It would hardly be unprecedented. NASA finally got around to testing an "impossible" reactionless drive concept that's been around for a very long while and discovered that it might not actually work (although probably not in the way the inventor thought it would).

Reachable wrote:
Palladium and rhodium aren't cheap (and their prices are volatile), but the author said that other Transition Metals proved useful.
Platinum group metals are indeed exceedingly expensive, but it sounds like they're used in small quantities, in this case, just as they are in catalytic converters and a number of other common, commercial products. Additionally, even iridium (which is much more expensive than either palladium or rhodium) is a heck of a lot cheaper than reactor-grade nuclear fuel.

Besides, fabrication is probably far more expensive than the materials. I'm just extrapolating here, but it sounds like whatever the metal is, it has to be made into an extremely low-density, open-celled foam with a very consistent cell size, something that's damn tricky to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:08 am 
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Irrelevant wrote:
Besides, fabrication is probably far more expensive than the materials. I'm just extrapolating here, but it sounds like whatever the metal is, it has to be made into an extremely low-density, open-celled foam with a very consistent cell size, something that's damn tricky to do.


Isn't this what manufacturing in zero-G is good at? Yes, the cost...


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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:50 pm 
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SilentKev wrote:
Irrelevant wrote:
Besides, fabrication is probably far more expensive than the materials. I'm just extrapolating here, but it sounds like whatever the metal is, it has to be made into an extremely low-density, open-celled foam with a very consistent cell size, something that's damn tricky to do.


Isn't this what manufacturing in zero-G is good at? Yes, the cost...
Gravity makes it tricky, not impossible, and not necessarily cost-prohibitive, depending on how quickly the cathode degrades.

Additionally, space-based manufacturing is WAY beyond costly at the moment. Without gravity, most of our techniques and virtually all of our tools fail completely (there is no natural convection in space, after all), and the rest would require a whole lot of tweaking. Basically, you're talking years of R&D in a lab accessible only by a shipping service that charges $10,000/kg.

Still, it's damn stupid that we don't have a space-based economy or at least the beginnings of one. You don't need to build a space elevator (dumbest idea ever, IMO) to make it viable and whoever gets there first is going to kick the economic trash out of everyone else. With beam propulsion, asteroid mining, and a few basic industrial facilities, you've unlocked a practically unlimited supply of inorganic raw materials, nearly free energy, and totally free real-estate you can pollute to your wallet's content. Hard to compete with that, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:45 pm 
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very interesting subject.
LENR has many ways, if not infinite approaches if every think tank wanted to apply themselves.
http://energycatalyzer3.com/invest/is-a ... is-upon-us
russian invented a plasma version.
The nano, natural way is going to be a win. I really believe in that, as we have done things by accident to fill the imagination of those to capture it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold fusion ressurected?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:37 am 
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At year's end, time to make some clarifications and add new information:

The IP to the Rossi reactor and related work appears to be still the property of Leonardo Corporation, and Industrial Heat has invested about 10 M$.
Also a British company, Woodford Equity Income Fund has invested more than IH, according to this:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/01/wo ... diligence/

The test of the 1MW Ecat, made of 4 x 250kW reactors, should end in February. It seems there are some reliability problems, see the updated news on the test:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/12/30/1- ... mpetitive/

An interview with Rossi's closest engineer, Fulvio Fabiani, I found this interesting:
http://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/1 ... t-believe/

Latest breakthrough appears to be direct production of electricity (I can't imagine how this works, if it does :roll: ) by the new Ecat X:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/12/30/ov ... c-e-cat-x/


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