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 Post subject: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:10 pm 
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I've decided to head in a very different direction for my next build

AsRock Z77-E ITX
Xeon E3-1225 v2 (Ivy Bridge)
2x 4GB Kingston kvr1333 memory (reuse)
Hauppauge 1250 Tuner/Capture card (Pcie x1)
1x Seagate 500GB Barracude (reuse)
2x Seagate 1TB Barracuda (7200RPM)
Case is the Coolermaster Elite 120 Advanced
Antec 380w 80+ PSU (reuse)

EDIT:
As a Linux user, I always have to keep support and drivers in mind when selecting hardware. For those who seem to think others only run Windows or OSX - keep in mind that many of us and it's a growing number do not use either of those on a daily basis. It's also why I have not really investigated the Haswell option. Simply put, the initial support for Linux didn't exist and that's been a major consideration.

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
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Seagate Barracuda 3TB - EVGA GT640 w/2GB Video Card (dual Slot)
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Last edited by fastturtle on Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:35 pm 
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They are out there but they are OEM products, not retail and often have application specific cables which may not fit a conventional computer layout.

On another note, what's green about it?

I would think about swapping the 3 HDDs for an SSD and a one low rpm HDD, a little more expensive but potentially faster, quieter and lower power.


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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:15 am 
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Check if you can get a Seasonic 360W 80PLUS Gold ATX12V Power Supply SSR-360GP, was reviewed by SPCR and got the editor choice, Seasonic G360 PSU: High efficiency & performance, low price. The only downside is that its not modular, but does come with 4 sata connectors.

If your budget allows grab an ssd and drop the WD Blue for OS, and grab a Samsung MZ-7TD250BW 840 Series Solid State Drive (SSD) 250 GB Sata 2.5-Inch.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:30 am 
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As I stated, I can easily get an 80+ Seasonic S12-300w unit. Gold would be nice but unless it's down in the 200 - 250 watt range, it's not worth the additional cost.

Current build configuration looks to be about 120-150 watts max.

As to going with an SSD, I don't like them. For what a 250GB SSD costs, I can buy a retail 4TB drive from Newegg for less and have 16x the storage space. Simply put, they're over priced for a desktop unit as yet. As to using slower drives. I've got a 5400 in the system and I'll take the 7200 for the added performance. Another issue is that the cost difference between 5400 and 7200 is negliable at less then $10 for the same size and it runs into the Penny Wise/Pound Foolish issue. The difference between the power demand is 2-3 watts per drive.

I'm aware that OEM can get a 250 watt 80+ certified but I haven't found anyone making them as yet. Maybe by year end we'll start seeing them in that range as the requirement is for 80+ across the board in the States. I think Europe also mandates 80+ for all new PSU's so it should be better later in the year.

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
Crucial M500 120GB SSD (boot) Samsung 1TB Spinpoint - WD 2TB Green
Seagate Barracuda 3TB - EVGA GT640 w/2GB Video Card (dual Slot)
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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:25 am 
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Have you actually used a computer with an SSD? I can't _stand_ working on computers without SSDs now.


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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:16 am 
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I have to agree with hudson, go SSD and you won't go back. Especially as a gentoo user, I highly recommend it.


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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:17 am 
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It's impossible to fit the Cooler Master Hyper 212 in that case. Maximum CPU cooler height according to the SPCR review is 76 mm and you'd probably want to subtract at least 10 mm so that the CPU fan can actually draw some air in: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1320-page4.html

Also 3 HDD will pretty much block any airflow coming from the front to the CPU.

And small doesn't mean green, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:11 pm 
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I'll answer the 1st question "What's green about it?" (a bit snarky but I'll bite)

The Xeon chosen has a slightly lower TDP compared to it's i7 counterpart while having higher benchmarks where I'm interested in.

As to buying an SSD, I don't like them - nuff said

On the selected drives, those are tentative though the 4TB Seagates are actually 4200 RPM. The WD 250GB Blue is a place holder. If I could still get a 40GB SATA2 drive, I'd be very happy but that's the smallest I can now find. Depends on what's available when I buy the parts. I always look at the reviews for 6 months before I buy and if I see any issues, I will change things as needed.

On the power consumption, I have things configured to take full advantage of sleep mode - 15 minutes idle, monitor is 5 minutes, so power savings are maximized based on my usage. Payback isn't going to be less then 20 years so I'm not worried about it so long as I reach my total system target of less then 150 watts. My current system hits 150w max with a video card, so I feel dropping below that is quite possible. I just want enough headroom for unexpected issues and to extend the PSU lifespan.

Overall, I fully expect this to be the last computer I buy/build because in a decade, I suspect I'll be using a tablet for all of my needs. If this system lasts longer then that, I'll be very happy but with the way they're already changing the SATA spec, I figure that about 10 years will be the last point I could even get drives for this system. It's that planned osbolescence that Intel and everyone else is pushing to force an upgrade cycle on us instead of building quality that will last for 10 to 20 years anymore and I dislike our current throw-away society.

Lucky Luciano:

1st off, the selected cooler is number 3 on the SPCR list - reason I chose it.
2nd - There's a secondary 120mm fan mount that's the same height as the selected cooler, which is why I chose it
3rd: With my planned under clock/volt efforts, I should be able to run completely fanless

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
Crucial M500 120GB SSD (boot) Samsung 1TB Spinpoint - WD 2TB Green
Seagate Barracuda 3TB - EVGA GT640 w/2GB Video Card (dual Slot)
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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:18 pm 
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fastturtle wrote:
1st off, the selected cooler is number 3 on the SPCR list - reason I chose it.
2nd - There's a secondary 120mm fan mount that's the same height as the selected cooler, which is why I chose it
3rd: With my planned under clock/volt efforts, I should be able to run completely fanless

With a normal ATX PSU in there, the cooler won't fit. If you wanna go small and know that you will not add a dedicated graphics card later, consider a picoPSU. Completely fanless (on the CPU) is a non-issue in your case. You will have several spinning HDDs that will risk overheating in an all-passive environment. If you do have fans in there, it matters little if one of them is mounted directly on the CPU heatsink or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:59 am 
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fastturtle wrote:
As to buying an SSD, I don't like them

why? because of cost per GB, or is it something else ? one of the hardest noises to deal with when silencing a computer used to be the hard drive...

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Hyper 212 is like four inches too tall for the case.
Xeon E3-1225 95 watts TDP is far less efficient than the Xeon E3-1225V2 at 77W.
Case has severerly restricted airflow for 3 HDD's with or without extra fan and cheaply made (I used it once and will never again due to broken parts).
Spinup on three 3.5" HDD's requires minimum 100 watts, Newegg recommends 3x39=117W, so that's why you won't find an ATX 200-250 with four SATA conectors.
Ten-years future proof but choosing the Xeon over a hyperthreaded i7 quad?.....good luck with that.

I say keep the MB and RAM on your list, but take a mulligan on the rest. And scratch "green" from the top of it. Around here that infers half of your power requirements even if you don't like SSD's.


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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:07 pm 
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If you want a small form factor and like the shape of the coolermaster case, and want to use a tower, then consider Fractal Design Node 304, it shoudl allow to fit the Seasonic G360 + 2 hdd easily (6 is the max) and it will fit very tall tower coolers (the fan will depend on the design). If you wish to check builds, maybe you can get some ideas for yours, check OCN [Official] Fractal Design Node 304 Owners Club.

And i would consider building on haswell instead of ivy bridge, now that the Xeons are out, check Intel Xeon E3-1225V3 Haswell 3.2GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1150 95W Quad-Core Server Processor BX80646E31225V3 and i would pair it with a cheaper motherboard with fanXpert, like ASUS H81I-PLUS or ASUS H87I-PLUS (crosscheck that it will support the xeon before buying), these motherboards have the CPU socket more centered than Asrock or the past intel/msi/etc, ideal for a setup like Node 304 and a tower cooler.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:03 am 
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fwki: Thanks for catching the mistake - I'm planning on the Ivy Bridge (v2) as the Sandy Bridge uses the HD3000 GPU

Abula: That's one of the cases I'd looked at before selectting the Coolermaster case for these reasons:

1) It's +40 over the Coolermaster
2) No Optical Bay
3) Can't support a monitor on top like the Coolermaster can

On the Haswell option:

From what I've seen so far, most of the Xeon Haswells are actually hotter and slower then the Ivy Bridge. Sorry folks but the 1225-v2 is listed as 77w TDP while the 1225-v3 is listed as 95w TDP. Why would I want a hotter CPU? I've already got a 95w x4 640 Athlon.

On the Hyper 212 issue - It's a Coolermaster HSF going into a Coolermaster Case. The case is specifically designed to accept the Hyper212 so there's no issues with fit.

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
Crucial M500 120GB SSD (boot) Samsung 1TB Spinpoint - WD 2TB Green
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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:48 am 
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fastturtle wrote:
From what I've seen so far, most of the Xeon Haswells are actually hotter and slower then the Ivy Bridge. Sorry folks but the 1225-v2 is listed as 77w TDP while the 1225-v3 is listed as 95w TDP. Why would I want a hotter CPU? I've already got a 95w x4 640 Athlon.

Intel® Xeon® Processor E3-1225 v2 is 77W, Intel® Xeon® Processor E3-1225 v3 is 84W. The higher TDP is due to the voltage regulators that are on-die on Haswell but on the motherboard in a Ivy Bridge system.
fastturtle wrote:
On the Hyper 212 issue - It's a Coolermaster HSF going into a Coolermaster Case. The case is specifically designed to accept the Hyper212 so there's no issues with fit.

Are we talking about this case?

Image

And this HSF?

Image

If so, then with a normal PSU in there, I cannot see how it will fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:15 am 
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Vicotnik: You're arguing the wrong point as to Haswell. The TDP is still higher then the Ivy Bridge even if the overall system demand is reduced by moving the power transistors/control onto the CPU die. I think the 89TDP versus 77TDP says it all and with the planned under clock/volt it wont make much of a difference anyhow.

On your Hyper212 concerns, granted, it will be very tight but after watching the install Video on Youtube, I feel confident that the Coolermaster Reply I have is correct. There may only be 5-15mm clearance between the HSF and PSU but that's plenty. I've seen systems that had actual contact between an HSF and other components such as RAM. In this case, the case has an excellent PSU mount that can be easily replaced with a slightly deeper unit to gain clearance so it doesn't appear to be a problem. Love the PSU bracket setup as it's the only thing making this possible.

One of the main problems with any of these high efficiency coolers is whether they even fit your board. In this case, it fits the board and the case clearances are going to be damn tight (as normal) for such a small system.

The last point is, although the 212 may not fit, it's still not wasted since I do have a couple of AM3+ systems that could use it, so money isn't down the drain.

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:46 am 
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fastturtle wrote:
On your Hyper212 concerns, granted, it will be very tight but after watching the install Video on Youtube, I feel confident that the Coolermaster Reply I have is correct. There may only be 5-15mm clearance between the HSF and PSU but that's plenty. I've seen systems that had actual contact between an HSF and other components such as RAM. In this case, the case has an excellent PSU mount that can be easily replaced with a slightly deeper unit to gain clearance so it doesn't appear to be a problem. Love the PSU bracket setup as it's the only thing making this possible.
I hope before all the gear reaches you, you do understand what Vicotnik is trying to tell you, the 212 wont fit with a standard PSU on top of it, if you ignore his remark you will see it once you start building. This is why i suggested the NODE 304, as you seem to be into a tower cooler on mini ITX buld, start looking for blow down coolers like Scythe Kozuti, Scythe BigShuriken, Thermalrigth AXP100 / AXP200 to see what will fit on your case/psu. Else look into a picoPSU and use an external brick probably like the 212 could fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:48 am 
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fastturtle wrote:
You're arguing the wrong point as to Haswell. The TDP is still higher then the Ivy Bridge even if the overall system demand is reduced by moving the power transistors/control onto the CPU die. I think the 89TDP versus 77TDP says it all and with the planned under clock/volt it wont make much of a difference anyhow.

That's 84W vs 77W and as you say it matters little. It just seems a little strange that you seem to value low CPU power consumption higher than low system power consumption, especially when more of the system fits on the CPU and that you will underclock that CPU, making the small TDP difference even less of an issue.

fastturtle wrote:
On your Hyper212 concerns, granted, it will be very tight but after watching the install Video on Youtube, I feel confident that the Coolermaster Reply I have is correct. There may only be 5-15mm clearance between the HSF and PSU but that's plenty. I've seen systems that had actual contact between an HSF and other components such as RAM. In this case, the case has an excellent PSU mount that can be easily replaced with a slightly deeper unit to gain clearance so it doesn't appear to be a problem. Love the PSU bracket setup as it's the only thing making this possible.

It should be tight indeed, as max CPU cooler height according to the case specifications is 65 mm and the Hyper 212 is 159 mm tall. Or do you mean that there's a PSU mount available that will let the PSU stick out so much in the back that the HSF will fit beside it? Can you link to that video?

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:45 am 
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Abula: I've looked at the Fractal Design case and didn't like it then or now. Nuff Said

On the two Asus boards suggested, no Xeon Support from Either Board.

Vicontek: Just double checked the full manual where it does indicate a 65mm max cooler height. Looks like the reply I got from Coolermaster didn't bother to even check the manual or maybe they don't have the information in their internal FAQ. Would be nice if they'd update the brochure to show that restriction. Means sticking with the stock cooler for now.

Mea Culpa: Your clue-by-four was effective. I finally checked and AsRock does support the Haswell Xeons plus the new boards have a very nice feature. They include a PCIe x1 slot along with the x16 slot. Means changing the build list.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:38 am 
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Haswell caveat: The C1 chipset at introduction had a bug in the USB3 controller, where devices sometimes aren't recognized when the PC returns from Sleep. The user fix is to dismount/remount the device for it to be recognized. Intel released the fixed C2 chipset to mobo mfgrs in end July. Some are starting to appear in retail now. But, it might be a while until the old inventory is flushed. If, that "feature" doesn't bother you, then no worries. If it does, make sure your Mobo has the C2 stepping. In Asrock's case, I don't think they changed the mobo part number...just added a "C2 stepping"sticker on the front.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Thanks for the reminder of why I had a problem with the Haswell boards.

AsRock B85M ITX board (haswell) Only brand I've seen that supports the Xeon CPU on most of their boards.

Xeon E3-1225 v3 (Haswell) HD/P4600 - Linux Support depends on Kernel Version

One thing that I always have to keep in mind is Linux/BSD support for hardware and in regards to drivers and in the case of Haswell, it did not exist at release. It's getting better but still flaky at times depending on the Linux Distro and as far as BSD unix goes, very questionable.

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Silverstone SST RL01B-USB 3.0 - Coolermaster Hyper T4 - Asus DVD Burner
Crucial M500 120GB SSD (boot) Samsung 1TB Spinpoint - WD 2TB Green
Seagate Barracuda 3TB - EVGA GT640 w/2GB Video Card (dual Slot)
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Last edited by fastturtle on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Planned Green ITX BUild
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:00 am 
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Well, that's a valid argument. And the reason I've never built a Haswell system yet. I will soon enough though, because of the improvements regarding power consumption. :p ;)

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