Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

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upp3rd0g
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Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by upp3rd0g » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:13 am

I have built a Caps zuma audio-pc based on Intel 4670T cpu + Asus H87M-E mainboard + Streacom FS5ws case + Streacom nano150 psu. For reference, it looks similar to this:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/conte ... s-v3-zuma/

This combination worked fine for more then a month and suddenly stopped working (while playing music). On a different forum people are suggesting the VRM components overheated, thus the motherboard broke down.

Anybody any ideas on this?

bonestonne
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by bonestonne » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:38 am

Have you done any troubleshooting?

Checked other hardware to make sure it's working, hard drive, PSU, etc?

upp3rd0g
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by upp3rd0g » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:21 am

Yes, I have done all possible troubleshooting, afaik.

I did the following:

disconnect everything except cpu
connect the mainboard to a working Seasonic G-550 psu
connect a chassisfan

This results in a lit SB_PWR led on the mainboard (but apparently this always lights up when it detects at least 5V). When I press the power-on button the chassisfan works but no image from onboard graphics module on either VGA connector or DVI connector. When I add 1 stick of RAM the system starts up for 1 second and turns itself off and this behavior repeats itself. This behavior is detected from the chassisfan and from the power-led from the case (thus not onboard standby powerled
SB_PWR).

With this setup I would expect to see at least the bios-screen.

Please correct if I am wrong. Every suggestion is appreciated. I am now wondering if the experts in this forum think the VRM modules of a HTPC can be passively cooled (thus no air-flow).

upp3rd0g
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by upp3rd0g » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:20 pm

Ok, I learned the following: in order for the BIOS to startup you need at least 1 ram module inserted, without ram the system/BIOS cannot start up and thus will give no graphics output.

It turns out 1 of my 2 ram modules is faulty. With the faulty module inserted the system/BIOS cannot startup. The system/BIOS starts up fine with only the good module inserted.

bonestonne
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by bonestonne » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:46 pm

upp3rd0g wrote:Ok, I learned the following: in order for the BIOS to startup you need at least 1 ram module inserted, without ram the system/BIOS cannot start up and thus will give no graphics output.
It's a good thing you learned that. It applies to every single computer for the past several years. Very few machines have integrated RAM (very, very few) so unless your machine does, RAM is a requirement to boot up normally.

Good thing you found your problem and it was cheap. RAM should have a lifetime warranty, time to go figure out how to get your RAM replaced!

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by xan_user » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:40 pm

first thing to check when booting fails on a new build is ram. (also first thing to check when there are random issues after booting)

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by Vicotnik » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:10 am

The PSU is usually next in line to be checked though. So the method is correct; minimal setup, replace stuff until the problem is found. Just remember to include RAM in the minimal setup. ;)

upp3rd0g
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by upp3rd0g » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:20 am

Yes, lesson learned! :oops:

Now I have another question, related to this.

What is your experience with fully fanless systems? Can in your experience a good motherboard and good memory operate without defects for years without _any_ airflow?

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by xan_user » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:57 am

unless you live in a cave, one good slow fan is inaudible for just about any users ambient noise floor.

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by Vicotnik » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:20 am

upp3rd0g wrote:What is your experience with fully fanless systems? Can in your experience a good motherboard and good memory operate without defects for years without _any_ airflow?
Yes, fanless is doable, as long as the system is reasonable modest. But don't use such a system for any 24/7 full load work.

Fanless has it's place. If the stuff is low power and small, perhaps it's easier without a fan. Most likely it's the other way around though, easier with a fan in there. Depends on the build and your goals.

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by bonestonne » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:55 am

Vicotnik wrote:
upp3rd0g wrote:What is your experience with fully fanless systems? Can in your experience a good motherboard and good memory operate without defects for years without _any_ airflow?
Yes, fanless is doable, as long as the system is reasonable modest. But don't use such a system for any 24/7 full load work.

Fanless has it's place. If the stuff is low power and small, perhaps it's easier without a fan. Most likely it's the other way around though, easier with a fan in there. Depends on the build and your goals.
This. There are some really good fanless systems available that are really good. That said, they're very expensive. In order for the machine to be effective in 24/7 usage, it really needs have incredibly lower power draw, really low TDP, and a really good thermal transfer. It also needs to be in a somewhat moderately cooled room in order to sustain average temps in a save range. This will be stated for each motherboard, what it's safe operating temps actually are.

If you were to build a fanless system, you'll see a noticeable temp reduction by having a strategically placed cooling fan on a particularly warm component. That would also likely improve performance and lifespan in the long run.

upp3rd0g
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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by upp3rd0g » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:26 pm

Thanx for all the input! I am aware of the good results of large, slow-moving fans, which are indeed almost inaudible. But I am striving for fully fanless, just as is described here:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/conte ... s-v3-zuma/

This is an audio-pc which looks like your typical stereo device and I want it to act like one. Thus no fans.

This is a lowpower system which at max capacity uses around 120Watts. But it is never running at full capacity so in practice (a lot?) less then 70Watts.

I am just wondering if the motherboard and ram modules will survive under these conditions (no airflow) for long periods of time (5+ years).

I was hoping to find experts on this forum as this is called: silentpcreview. :-)

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Re: Caps zuma with Asus H87M-E defect

Post by bonestonne » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:52 pm

I have seen other people with that same computer in use (or very close variants of it). The key is to simply be using very low wattage components. The 4670T is pretty low power at 45W, but that can be even lower with some i3 CPUs and the Pentiums. This means that under load, you'd be producing so little heat comparatively, that the fanless case would be able to more than dissipate the heat.

NUC machines are going this route. The TDP is so low that under load it still barely heats up. ARM CPUs are similar to this (considering most phones use this today, and they hardly ever get noticeably warm for most people). If you wanted something fanless, you could look at the O-Droid machines. I actually plan to get one for myself eventually. These machines develop a lot in a short amount of time, so what would be a fairly warm running single core CPU (like the Raspberry Pi) now has quad core ARM based competition in similar form factors that are also capable of running with just a fanless heatsink. The Raspberry Pi is unique in that it doesn't even require a heatsink (I don't have one on mine).

Desktop hardware is not at the point where that can be a reality, so it will still be an issue that even a single low speed fan would still be necessary for long term stability in the machine.

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