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 Post subject: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:34 am 
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Hi friends,
I would like to use one of those heatsink (Shyte Kozuti, Coolter Master Gemini M4 and so on) over a i3 4130T (max 35W TDP) but without the fan, all in a mini Itx case as M350. For you it's possibile to keep it fanless?
The work is, basically, home office, play video fullhd, internet, music and similar things. No game, no editing video.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:34 am 
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It's probably not a great idea but if you really want to do that, you'd better underclock. And you might as well buy a much cheaper CPU. The official TDP rating is basically irrelevant. Underclock any modern Intel and it'll run cool.
Or you might simply buy a cheap board which comes with a factory-underclocked CPU like the GA-C1037UN-EU.


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:01 am 
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Autorit wrote:
For you it's possibile to keep it fanless?


Not in a fanless enclosure which is not itself a passive heatsink: in your scenario, IMVHO you're basically limited to about 20W TDP (but lower is preferable), and whether you need the 2.9GHz speed of that i3, probably you'd better go for a much cheaper G1830 (or G3220) and undervolt it (providing you don't have any further, special requirement).

At any rate, why do you aim to such a setup?

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:35 am 
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Spend a bit more on the case and get something like the HD-Plex H1-S and you can go with a normal CPU. You need the right type of motherboard though.

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:33 am 
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Look at the Streacom FC8 EVO. Not much bigger than the M350 but with passive cooling in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:46 am 
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The Akasa Euler Fanless Thin ITX Case should work well with a 35W CPU and it's less expensive than other fanless cases. You need a Thin mini ITX mainboard with that case.

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:02 am 
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HFat wrote:
It's probably not a great idea but if you really want to do that, you'd better underclock. And you might as well buy a much cheaper CPU. The official TDP rating is basically irrelevant. Underclock any modern Intel and it'll run cool.
Or you might simply buy a cheap board which comes with a factory-underclocked CPU like the GA-C1037UN-EU.

i'm interested to a cpu with a good graphic as HD4400/4600


quest_for_silence wrote:
Autorit wrote:
For you it's possibile to keep it fanless?

Not in a fanless enclosure which is not itself a passive heatsink: in your scenario, IMVHO you're basically limited to about 20W TDP (but lower is preferable), and whether you need the 2.9GHz speed of that i3, probably you'd better go for a much cheaper G1830 (or G3220) and undervolt it (providing you don't have any further, special requirement).

At any rate, why do you aim to such a setup?


but the G3220 has a graphic chip less powerfull than i3.
due to noise: i don't want to listen no noise!


Vicotnik wrote:
Spend a bit more on the case and get something like the HD-Plex H1-S and you can go with a normal CPU. You need the right type of motherboard though.

good but it doesn't have the front usb

tim851 wrote:
Look at the Streacom FC8 EVO. Not much bigger than the M350 but with passive cooling in mind.

it's bigger and more expansive

boost wrote:
The Akasa Euler Fanless Thin ITX Case should work well with a 35W CPU and it's less expensive than other fanless cases. You need a Thin mini ITX mainboard with that case.

good but no front usb


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:02 pm 
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Autorit wrote:
but the G3220 has a graphic chip less powerfull than i3.
due to noise: i don't want to listen no noise!


Yes, Pentium/Celeron have a less powerful IGP: it's a trade off, those CPU cost the half or less of a Core i3, something has been stripped down.
The question is: do you have any task for those extra unified shaders? If you have some specific need, then a Core i3 may worth: otherwise, YMMV.

The nominal TDP is not a relevant issue: any modern Intel CPU (Sandy/Ivy/Haswell) may draw about the same power, providing they are conveniently either undervolted or underclocked (so which motherboard is the real issue, IMO).

The proposed setup would combine about the smallest size with the extreme quietness: due to law of physics, it's extremely difficult to achieve such a goal, while retaining a normal CPU power. Particularly if you take into account that such a small enclosure would be more probably that not very close to the operator ears (so any moving part - fan, hdd - can be more easily audible).
If you add further requirements (i.e. the enclosure cost, those front USB 3 ports, and so on), then I'm afraid your purpose cannot be fulfilled.

Eventually, a 35W Haswell (or an undervolted 53W SKU) cannot be cooled safely with any passive heatsink in such a small enclosure without any case fans, period: I guess you should change either the proposed enclosure, or the CPU TDP (not to mention that you should cure very carefully the relevant placement).

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Autorit wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Spend a bit more on the case and get something like the HD-Plex H1-S and you can go with a normal CPU. You need the right type of motherboard though.

good but it doesn't have the front usb

Well, two USB 3.0 ports on the side, just by the front. Better than on the actual front if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:46 pm 
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most people who think they need a fanless system, really do not.
how far away will this case be away from the user? will it be vesa mounted? my monitor is 3+ feet from me, with a m350 behind it i cant even hear the stock intel fan. -i do have the fan running @ really low rpms. but the cpu (E2220 TDP 65 W)doesn't overheat under full load and is silent for my noise floor.

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:53 pm 
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xan_user wrote:
most people who think they need a fanless system, really do not.
how far away will this case be away from the user? will it be vesa mounted? my monitor is 3+ feet from me, with a m350 behind it i cant even hear the stock intel fan. -i do have the fan running @ really low rpms. but the cpu (E2220 TDP 65 W)doesn't overheat under full load and is silent for my noise floor.

Using a Celeron G530 and Gigabyte H77M-D3H, I'm able to get the stock Intel HSF down to 1300RPM. Not quite inaudible, but it is innocuous to my ears, and no unwanted tonal or clicking/ticking noises either. Behind a monitor or under a desk, it would be even quieter. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:18 am 
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xan_user wrote:
most people who think they need a fanless system, really do not.

I agree. But is that really an argument to put a fan in there? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:51 am 
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Vicotnik wrote:
xan_user wrote:
most people who think they need a fanless system, really do not.

I agree. But is that really an argument to put a fan in there? :)

absolutely. why bother, if 99.5% of the time there's no benefit?

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:59 am 
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Vicotnik wrote:
xan_user wrote:
most people who think they need a fanless system, really do not.

I agree. But is that really an argument to put a fan in there? :)

Well, I disagree. That's like saying "most people who think they need an i7 instead of an i3, really do not." Who are you to say what the OP thinks he needs or wants. He said that he has a 35w TDP cpu and he asked if he can keep it fanless. This is certainly doable with the right case - either something big enough for one of the many fanless coolers available or something like the Streacom FC8 mentioned, which is not much bigger than the M350 case he has. He could even do it with the M350 by adding some external heatsinks and a heatpipe. Here's a picture of one of my fanless HTPCs with a 35w TDP i3 in a Habey EMC-600 case, which is smaller than a M350 and just as inexpensive.

Image

You can read more here about it and another fanless build using a little bigger Habey EMC-800 case.

<rant>
Fanless is for people who want it and the absolute silence that it enables. People who say that you don't need fanless have probably never experienced it and are satisfied to compromise with a fan. A fan is a moving part and makes noise, no matter how much you make it bigger or slow it down or sit further away. It can never be "silent", only "quiet". I get annoyed at people who boast of their "silent" PC that is running multiple cpu and case fans.

If "quiet" is good enough for you, then that's OK with me. But don't disparage people who seek the worthy goal of silence through passive cooling. The last time I checked, the name of this forum was Silent PC Review, not Quiet PC Review.
</rant>


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:37 am 
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coppertubing wrote:
Well, I disagree. That's like saying "most people who think they need an i7 instead of an i3, really do not." Who are you to say what the OP thinks he needs or wants.


Your rant is somewhat understandable, but maybe you're addressing the wrong quote: Vicotnik was probably just teasing (check his signature, his systems are mostly "no moving part" ones).

Even xan_user addressed, IMVHO, a somehow different question: a lot of people - who're seeking after a fanless build - actually never experienced the difference between a fanless rig and an extremely quiet fanned system, often with the result that while pursuing such a "Graal", they don't even achieve what could be easily feasible (for their resources).

I would add that sometimes you cannot even touch such a difference: for example, I started building totally fanless PC, but currently I am unable to hear (from about half a meter) the difference between a 120mm Scythe fan running at 200-250rpm and the very same fan stopped, in my ears everything is drowned out by the fancy humming of the surrounding electronic noise (on the contrary I am still able to perceive the airborne noise of a low rpm disk drive idling some meters from me, at night).

Hope my considerations won't hurt: and, at any rate, I really admire your cooling enclosures and your DIYer craftmanship! :o

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:16 pm 
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The OP asked if it was possible to have a Haswell i3 35w TDP in a small fanless case. The correct answer is yes, it is possible. But right away, everyone started saying it's not a great idea, you have to underclock it, just add a fan, you really don't need to do that, there's no benefit, blah, blah, blah. The last two statements by xan_user were what set me off.

What the OP asks for is not only possible, it is relatively easy to achieve. It doesn't even have to be expensive. My HTPC cost less than $20 to make fanless. It has been running 24/7 for the past 3 years without any issues. I believe a lot of people who are after a silent rig usually give in and just throw a fan on it, say they can't hear it, and call it a day.

My goal was similar to the OP's - to build a small, inexpensive, fanless, silent system. It's like climbing a mountain - you really don't need to do that, but people do, mostly for the challenge. If someone is satisfied with sitting at the base camp and saying this is just as good as the summit, then I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise.

Sorry, there I go again. I'll be quiet now. (pun intended)


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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:29 pm 
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coppertubing wrote:
The OP asked if it was possible to have a Haswell i3 35w TDP in a small fanless case.


Sorry, I've a different interpretation of:

OP wrote:
I would like to use one of those heatsink (Shyte Kozuti, Coolter Master Gemini M4 and so on) over a i3 4130T (max 35W TDP) but without the fan, all in a mini Itx case as M350. For you it's possibile to keep it fanless?


Your enclosures are not a plain vanilla M350s, they are passive heatsinks, and this is the exact advice the OP received from four out of five: «if you wanna go fanless, the case should be the heatsink». The fifth one said: «it's not advisable to use a Kozuti fanless inside an M350, but if you want to try, then it would be better to undervolt the CPU» - which incidentally is the most fitting response to the actual question.

At any rate, have a nice quietness!

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 Post subject: Re: Keep i3 Haswell 35W TDP fanless
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:34 pm 
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coppertubing wrote:
The OP asked if it was possible to have a Haswell i3 35w TDP in a small fanless case. The correct answer is yes, it is possible. But right away, everyone started saying it's not a great idea, you have to underclock it, just add a fan, you really don't need to do that, there's no benefit, blah, blah, blah.

Keeping a 35W CPU fanless is easy (or a 55W CPU, seldom a need to buy a factory underclocked CPU), with the right type of case. But in a M350 it's very difficult, which everyone correctly points out. With custom flexible heatpipes and a lot of DIY you can cool anything.

This discussion brings up a lot of issues the OP might not have thought about. A discussion helps more than a simple "Yes, it's possible. Next question".

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