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 Post subject: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboards
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 am
Posts: 19
Hi everyone,

First and foremost my compliments for the awesome job you are all doing here when assisting others with your experience/expertise!

I would like to build my first desktop pc (so far I have only been using laptops) but I need some help as I have little expertise on hardware configurations.
I’m looking for a high performance and close to silent pc for:
- extensive office use (Office suite, management software, onine databases)
- seldom use of Photoshop and CAD
- watching HD films (quite often)
- heavy browsing, p2p
- NO GAMING


So far I am oriented towards the following key components:

Fractal Design Define R4 Black Pearl
Seasonic P-660 Platinum or Seasonic P-520FL
Intel Core i5-4670 3.4GHz 6MB Socket 1150 84W con GPU HD Graphics 4600 Boxed
ASUS Z87-PRO or ASUS Z87-PLUS
Ram DDR3 Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 1600MHz 8GB (2x4GB) CL9
SSD Samsung 840 Pro Series 128GB 2.5" SATA3
at least a couple of 3TB WD hdds (I haven’t decided which ones yet)
still undecided about vga and CPU cooler

I would like to replace the 2 stock fans that come with the Fractal R4 case with three 140 mm PWM fans (2 in the front and 1 the back) in order to control each fan individually for optimized system cooling.
The priority is quietness at idle and low system stress.


1) I have read about the issue with some Asus motherboards regarding its chassis fan headers:
some motherboards have 4 pin headers but 4 pin PWM fans plugged into them behave as 3 pin fans or others which chassis fan headers are really 4 pin PWM but do not allow the duty cycle to run below a certain %.

1) Does anyone know if the Asus Z87-PRO or Z87-plus has the same kind of problem?
2) In case the answer is yes, what would you recommend?
To move to a different (but equivalent in specs) motherboard or…

Thank you in advance for your help!


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:37 pm 
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Welcome to SPCR.

The office apps don't require much horsepower - unless the spreadsheets and database crunching are massive...and more likely than not, the online database stuff will be limited by the speed of it's server and your connection rather than your system. The i5 is fine for your Photoshop and casual CAD use. HD films just need a Pentium class CPU and the integrated graphics. If you transcode your video, then the i5 is useful. I guess what I'm saying is if you are budget constrained, then go i3. If not, then go i5.

RAM: Step away from the tall heatspreader RAM - it adds zero value and gets in the way of many CPU coolers.

CPU cooler: you'll want an aftermarket cooler.

Mobo: As far as I know, the entire line of Asus mobo's exhibit the same fake PWM fan control for chassis fans. I'd go with the Z87-Plus unless there is some specifc feature you need on the Pro...or consider the H87 series as you aren't overclocking.

Case: I like the R4 - see my signature. But, do you need this size case? Consider the Define Mini and a uATX mobo. I suggest trying the included fans first. They are voltage controlled and will work with Fan Xpert. You can always replace them after you try them out. There are plenty of alternatives.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 am
Posts: 19
Thank you! :D

RAM: originally I was thinking about the DDR3 Corsair Vengeance Low Profile CML8GX3M2A1600C9 1600MHz 8GB (2x4GB) CL9, then when I checked the user's manual of the Z87-Pro I couldn't find the Low Profile under the DDR 1600 MHz capability list.
Do you think I could use the Vengeance Low Profile without coming into any compatibility issues?

CPU: how do you find yourself with the Mugen 4? I've read only great reviews about it! I heard the fan has a very nice acoustic but at high rpm can get a little noisy.

Mobo: I'll take a look at the H87. There are only a couple of differences between the Z87-Pro and Z87-Plus, one being the integrated wifi/bluetooth.

Case: at first I actually chose the Define Mini then a couple of friends made me change my mind over the fact that the R4, due to its bigger size, can be more adaptable to future configurations and dissipate heat more efficiently. At the moment I'm using three 3TB external HDDs, I'm planning to sell them and get three internal ones + ssd taking away one of the hdd trays for better air flow.

Case fans: the idea was to find better performing fans and use them at the lowest possible rpm.
I see you have three Antec True Quiet 140 on your system. Could you please share your experience with them?

Thank you so much again!


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:58 am 
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Mugen4, case fans: The build thread in my signature goes through all of the component selection tradeoffs I made along with member feedback.

RAM: it's the same RAM as in your initial post - just doesn't have the freakishly tall heatspreader. You'll be fine.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:52 am 
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If you want to go PWM in all, then you need to accept that all fans will be controlled by one header, and that you need a PWM splitter, this is how Asus mobos as only the CPU_FAN is the only true PWM fan header, the rest are 4pin fake pwm header, voltage controlled. MSI and AsRock have two real PWM fan headers, so you can assign one for the cpu and another to the case fans, but on the case fans you will control one the rest will get the same signal.

Now if you want to control them individually, then go with Asus, but only PWM fans for the CPU_FAN, and 3pin fans for the rest of headers (CHA_FAN1, 2, 3). Motherboards like Asus H87-Plus are very nice in price but only comes with CHA_FAN1 and CHA_FAN2 for headers, so if you wish to control more than 2 fans you will need 3pin Y splitters, or a higher end Asus mobo with more headers. The mugen4 should be fine on CPU_FAN header, is a PWM glidestream but placed on the CPU_FAN header, the mobo should be able to control it fine.

Antec True Quiet 140 is what i would recommend, as many as you want, they are cheap and very good tonally, the Asus mobo should be able to drop them to 200rpm on idle under FanXpert2, Here is a graph of the fan ran on an Asus Maximus VI Gene on the CHA_FAN2 header (TEST FAN was the renamed inside FanXpert2),

Image

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 am
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CA_Steve wrote:
Mugen4, case fans: The build thread in my signature goes through all of the component selection tradeoffs I made along with member feedback.

RAM: it's the same RAM as in your initial post - just doesn't have the freakishly tall heatspreader. You'll be fine.


Mugen4, case fans: I read it thank you!

RAM: I'll go with the Low Profile then!


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:33 am
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Abula wrote:
If you want to go PWM in all, then you need to accept that all fans will be controlled by one header, and that you need a PWM splitter, this is how Asus mobos as only the CPU_FAN is the only true PWM fan header, the rest are 4pin fake pwm header, voltage controlled. MSI and AsRock have two real PWM fan headers, so you can assign one for the cpu and another to the case fans, but on the case fans you will control one the rest will get the same signal.

Now if you want to control them individually, then go with Asus, but only PWM fans for the CPU_FAN, and 3pin fans for the rest of headers (CHA_FAN1, 2, 3). Motherboards like Asus H87-Plus are very nice in price but only comes with CHA_FAN1 and CHA_FAN2 for headers, so if you wish to control more than 2 fans you will need 3pin Y splitters, or a higher end Asus mobo with more headers. The mugen4 should be fine on CPU_FAN header, is a PWM glidestream but placed on the CPU_FAN header, the mobo should be able to control it fine.

Antec True Quiet 140 is what i would recommend, as many as you want, they are cheap and very good tonally, the Asus mobo should be able to drop them to 200rpm on idle under FanXpert2, Here is a graph of the fan ran on an Asus Maximus VI Gene on the CHA_FAN2 header (TEST FAN was the renamed inside FanXpert2),


Thank you Abula!
I've also been reading all your recent messages, very interesting indeed!

I think I would like to control them individually. In which case you recommend me to go with ASUS due to its FanXpert2 software, right?
Now, let's say I go with three 3pin fans and connect them to the CHA_FAN1, 2, and 3:

1) their speed will be linked to CPU temperatures or mobo ones?
2) they can be even set off until a certain temperature, right?
3) in the graph you have kindly provided it seems that the fan could be set to increse its speed by 10% at any given temp value, does it really works in that way? (I understand that in reality the fan speed increase is much smoother but I guess I'm trying to make a comparison with the built fan controller which only allows 3 different speeds).
4) I've read CA_Steve was only able to run its Antec True Quiet 140 fan at a lower speed of 460 rpm (at 80%) but you said that with Asus mobos I should be able to run it at 200 rpm on idle. I thought the minimum speed of the True Quiet is 500 rpm?!?
4) could you please explain to me why you would pick the True Quiet 140 as the most recommeded 140mm case fan rather than any of the following ones (let's not take in consideration the cost)?
- Noctua NF-P14 FLX
- Noctua NF-A14 FLX (I see you have the PWM version)
- Phanteks PH-F140 HP (apparently the best performer according to spcr but with a 'very faint clicking audible only at close proximity at 700 and 550 RPM'). It would be nice to see a review of the XP PWM with the quiet speed adapter.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Pao338 wrote:
I think I would like to control them individually. In which case you recommend me to go with ASUS due to its FanXpert2 software, right?
Yes.

Pao338 wrote:
1) their speed will be linked to CPU temperatures or mobo ones?
The CPU temperature that AI Suite III reads, which is a algorithm that Asus design to use multiple temperature sensors, they say its more accurate that way.... the fact is that it doesnt match any other temp probe i tested.

Pao338 wrote:
2) they can be even set off until a certain temperature, right?
Some have reported they have done it, i personally never have tried turning off my fans under certain temp, but the Antec True Quiet 140s would be extremly quiet at 200rpms, they bearly move any air at all, so i wouldn't worry to much, but could be useful lets say if you set up like 6 fans, and you leave 2 or 3 off until certain temp... o so on, but on small quantities, i don't think there will be much difference.

Pao338 wrote:
3) in the graph you have kindly provided it seems that the fan could be set to increse its speed by 10% at any given temp value, does it really works in that way? (I understand that in reality the fan speed increase is much smoother but I guess I'm trying to make a comparison with the built fan controller which only allows 3 different speeds).
The % based is just to show a small table, you can move the breakpoints between the squares which would be inside 10% (but dont quote me on that as i cant say for sure).

Pao338 wrote:
4) I've read CA_Steve was only able to run its Antec True Quiet 140 fan at a lower speed of 460 rpm (at 80%) but you said that with Asus mobos I should be able to run it at 200 rpm on idle. I thought the minimum speed of the True Quiet is 500 rpm?!?
CA_Steve is using an MSI Z87-GD45, which has very good PWM fan control but it has high restrictions on the CHA_FANS (or SYS_FANS), i believe its 50% the least he can lower them on bios on those headers. But you gotta realize that the Antec True Quiet is a very quiet fan, even at full rpms is still very good tonally. But i can tell for sure with that graph i posted that FanXpert2 was able to drop them to 200rpms on idle, at this rpms they are not audible to me, but also the barely move any air, so keep that mind also.

Pao338 wrote:
4) could you please explain to me why you would pick the True Quiet 140 as the most recommeded 140mm case fan rather than any of the following ones (let's not take in consideration the cost)?
- Noctua NF-P14 FLX
- Noctua NF-A14 FLX (I see you have the PWM version)
- Phanteks PH-F140 HP (apparently the best performer according to spcr but with a 'very faint clicking audible only at close proximity at 700 and 550 RPM').
I agree with lawrance review on SPCR, the new noctuas tonally are not as good as the Antec True Quiet 140s, but the noctuas have a very good PWM range of control, i also can lower them to 225rpms where they are also very quiet, but when i speed them up above 650rpms i can start hearing them, not really annoying, above 900rpms start to get loud, above 1k they are noisy imo.

Now out of your list, Noctua NF-P14 FLX has been like the standard for SPCR, i think noctua is fasing it out, but tonally spcr seem to liked more the Antecs and Phantek, i have not tested the phantek to say for sure, but the Antec is much quieter at the same rpms than my NF-A14 PWM, weather it cools better or not idk, but Antec True quiet 140s would be my pic for aiming into a very quiet setup with FanXpert2 mobo that has at least 3 cha fan headers. But i personally prefer pure bios fan control, no software, so MSI played better than Asus for this.

Pao338 wrote:
It would be nice to see a review of the XP PWM with the quiet speed adapter.
While its not a full fledge review, its just my personal impresions of it, Phanteks 140mm Case/Radiator Cooling Fan (PH-F140XP_BK), the only thing i wished was they could reach lower rpms, but its a nice fan.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:30 pm 
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I really do appreciate you are taking the time to help me out here! :D

Abula wrote:
The CPU temperature that AI Suite III reads, which is a algorithm that Asus design to use multiple temperature sensors, they say its more accurate that way.... the fact is that it doesnt match any other temp probe i tested.


You recommended me to go with ASUS due to its FanXpert2 software. SCPR has described it as "the most advanced first party fan control software". And (almost) every Asus user seems to love it! What about the issue with the different temp readings between the Asus software and other temps monitoring programs?
I read you got really concerned about it, to the extend that you decided to move away from Asus.

1) Do you think the way Asus measures temps is not that accurate after all? If yes, do you think that could apply only to high end gaming mobos, or, to all of them (i.e. Z87-Pro or Z87-Plus)?
2) Since I'm not a gamer and the configuration I'm looking for won't push the system at all, do you think this could still be an issue for me? Obviously temp measurement accuracy is very important regardless of the use of the pc. But I figured it becomes even more so for gamers with powerful system use.
If the way Asus measures its temps is not that accurate it would make FanXpert2 kind of worthless in terms of managing the fans...

2) Do you think mobo bios temp reading could be more accurate than FanXpert2?

3) What do you think about the ASRock Z87 Extreme6/ac? Same price range of the Z87-Pro but with new wifi 802.11 ac and 2 real 4-pin headers, among other adds on.
It has 2 x CPU Fan connectors (1 x 4-pin, 1 x 3-pin) and 3 x Chassis Fan connectors (1 x 4-pin, 2 x 3-pin).
I guess I could either connect 3 PWM case fans to the 4-pin header with a PWM splitter or 1 PWM fan end 2 3-pin fans. If I have understood correctly, in the first scenario I could control all 3 PWM fans individually and in the second I could control only the PWM and the rest will get the same signal and follow it with same rpm, right?

4) Regarding the Antec True Quiet, I thought the minimum speed is 500 rpm. How is it possible to drop them to 200 rpms on idle? (maybe its a stupid question but I didn't understand how it is possible for some mobos to drop the rpms below the minimum speed declared by manufactures).

Abula wrote:
While its not a full fledge review, its just my personal impresions of it, Phanteks 140mm Case/Radiator Cooling Fan (PH-F140XP_BK), the only thing i wished was they could reach lower rpms, but its a nice fan.


Very useful review thank you! :D
I noticed on the fake 4-pin header you were able to lower it to 450rpms in idle.

Needless to say I'm still quite undecided regarding the case fans.
I'm tempted to buy the NF-P14 FLX (they are not produced anymore but they are still sold....) due to their great acoustic (according to SPCR) and PWM range of control.
Phanteks PH-F140 HP along with the one that you nicely tested don't go lower than 450/560rpms plus the clicking/ticking at low rpms... :?
Have you actually tested the True Quiet 140? 800 rpm at full speed seems to me a little limiting and I'm concern about its cooling capabilities. Moreover, their declared noise level at 800rpms is double as the one of the NF-P14 FLX at 750 rpms.
(maybe I am making pointless considerations right here...)
From the review they seem to have almost identical cooling capabilities in relation to thei noise (the NF-P14 FLX seems slightly better). The review also states that airflow doesn't seem to have any direct correlation to anything...I know the test results support that idea but generally speaking do you agree with that statment?

How much high do your NF-A14 PWM fans get at high load?


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Quote:
4) Regarding the Antec True Quiet, I thought the minimum speed is 500 rpm. How is it possible to drop them to 200 rpms on idle? (maybe its a stupid question but I didn't understand how it is possible for some mobos to drop the rpms below the minimum speed declared by manufactures).

Fans have a min starting voltage and the rpm associated with it is around the min speed listed. However, it takes a lot less voltage to keep a fan spinning once it's started. So, some mobo's start the fans in BIOS at a higher voltage and then when the Windows utility takes over it can safely lower the voltage and rpm to a value less than the starting one.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:38 pm 
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Pao338 wrote:
You recommended me to go with ASUS due to its FanXpert2 software. SCPR has described it as "the most advanced first party fan control software". And (almost) every Asus user seems to love it! What about the issue with the different temp readings between the Asus software and other temps monitoring programs?
I read you got really concerned about it, to the extend that you decided to move away from Asus.
There are more reason than just the temp reading difference, i had issues with the audio, my motherboard did some wierd noises turning off like trumpets, and also had delays upon loading windows, like a pause when windows finished loading where i didnt had control of my PC for like 5-10sec, this also repeated itself sometimes into gaming. My personal guess is that my mobo was defective, as there were tons of people that didnt had my issues, but there were some that did, so im guessing the early batches had some issues. But to me its way to expensive to RMA a mobo, i do sometimes more expensive stuff, but to me was not worth it, so i had some memory laying around, and old hdd from a laptop, and picoPSU that i also swaped not so long ago, so decided to build a fan station.... for testing fans =). One interesting thing that i did notice upon rebuilding it, was that without a dedicated GPU and using the hdmi from the mobo, i had none of the issues i mention above, but this was my gaming build so not an option, but turn out alright, the haswell pentium are pretty interesting CPUs, for the money imo really good for HTPC or a budget build. In time i might convert this build into a dedicated camara station, im about to setup 8 IP cameras, and the software is pretty CPU dependent, at least blue iris, so i might move to i5 4760 and sell the pentium... but will see this are just plans that i have in mind for the future.

I don't want to discourage you, i still recommend asus though, to me its the easiest way to build around a quiet PC, specially if you know how the headers work and chose properly the fans for each.

Pao338 wrote:
1) Do you think the way Asus measures temps is not that accurate after all? If yes, do you think that could apply only to high end gaming mobos, or, to all of them (i.e. Z87-Pro or Z87-Plus)?
2) Since I'm not a gamer and the configuration I'm looking for won't push the system at all, do you think this could still be an issue for me? Obviously temp measurement accuracy is very important regardless of the use of the pc. But I figured it becomes even more so for gamers with powerful system use.
Well its hard to say, its not that its that bad, the problem is that sometimes its lower than the cores temps, and at some point in climbs exponentially even higher than the core temps, so idk for real. But this shouldnt be an issue for someone that isnt pushing the limits of the CPU.

Pao338 wrote:
If the way Asus measures its temps is not that accurate it would make FanXpert2 kind of worthless in terms of managing the fans...
You are right on this point, at the same time, haswell CPUs are very efficient on idle, and bearely heat up, atm im running my case fans at 225rpms (you bearly feel the airflow), and still i idle at 30C on 25C ambient, it rapidly climbs to 50C with light load, but where where my fans start to move up and control the temp. I think with Asus mobo and Antec True Quiet 140s as case fans, you will get a very quiet setup easily, the fans are very good tonally, and spinning at 200rpms (which fanXpert2 can), will make it virtually inaudible (depending on your other components), and you will probably idle at 30C also, where it matters is when load is applied and how good will the fans be to deal with the heat you are generating, again this shouldn't be an issue for someone that isnt stressing the CPU, and even then could be fine also, FanXpert2 is not bad.

Pao338 wrote:
2) Do you think mobo bios temp reading could be more accurate than FanXpert2?
Yes, from what i remember the temps i had with Asus Maximus VI Gene and with my MSI Z87-GD65 on my i7 4770K were very similar, on bios the CPU doesnt downclock so its usually higher than what you get on windows, unless you are manually messing with the multipliers. The problem with the bios is that has higher restrictions than with FanXpert2, where it bypasses any settings you have on bios, practically FanXpert2 frees your mobotherboard to reach whatever the fans are rated, really good imo.

Pao338 wrote:
3) What do you think about the ASRock Z87 Extreme6/ac? Same price range of the Z87-Pro but with new wifi 802.11 ac and 2 real 4-pin headers, among other adds on.
It has 2 x CPU Fan connectors (1 x 4-pin, 1 x 3-pin) and 3 x Chassis Fan connectors (1 x 4-pin, 2 x 3-pin).
I guess I could either connect 3 PWM case fans to the 4-pin header with a PWM splitter or 1 PWM fan end 2 3-pin fans. If I have understood correctly, in the first scenario I could control all 3 PWM fans individually and in the second I could control only the PWM and the rest will get the same signal and follow it with same rpm, right?
Way to hard for me to answer this subject, as i dont own a AsRock Haswell mobo. I seen it has very good fan control on pure bios, but only seen for the 2x real PWM fan headers, that if i recall correctly was CPU_FAN1 and SYS_FAN1, its very similar to MSI in terms of having two real pwm fan headers, where it varies is that you have more flexibility into setting multiple breakpoints on the bios, MSI only has two. Also Asrock allows any % to be entered, while MSI does it in 12.5% increments, so for example with MSI and a fan that has 20% as minium to spin, you will have to jump into 25% as the 12.5% woudlnt not spin it, but with Asrock you can setup the 20%, etc. Again i dont own an Asrock mobo so i cant say for sure, but thats what i saw when i another SPCR forum fellow posted some screenshots.

Now on the other headers on AsRock, i have no idea, on MSI from CA_Steve thread, he posted a 50% restriction for CHA_FAN or SYS_FAN, but idk how is AsRock on these headers, my very vague guess is that these, as with most motherboard manufacturers have higher resections than the CPU_FAN headers, in some cases its 20% in others like Asus is 40%, in MSI is 50%, etc, again this is just a guess, so take with a hint of salt.

Pao338 wrote:
4) Regarding the Antec True Quiet, I thought the minimum speed is 500 rpm. How is it possible to drop them to 200 rpms on idle? (maybe its a stupid question but I didn't understand how it is possible for some mobos to drop the rpms below the minimum speed declared by manufactures).
Fans have a spin up voltage and a running voltage, this is where Asus excels other mobos, and the reason you can drop the true quiet so low. When the asus motherboard starts, FanXpert2 isnt loaded, whats controlling the voltages on the headers is the BIOS, so let say they are at 40% or even 100% (12V), with this the fan spins up, but rapidly windows loads, and the bios loses control of them, while fanXpert2 takes control and bypasses the bios restrictions and settings, this is where it lowers the voltage to what it was tested to run, in this case its 200rpms. On the MSI mobo you cant do that (well you might if you use the control center but the software is meh to me), the reason is that on MSI you load on bios and stay on bios, even after windows loads, so there is no lowering after it spins up, like with FanXpert2. This can also be accomplished with software like Speedfan, but you gotta know how to, and to be sure that Speedfan supports the sensors on the motherboard.

Pao338 wrote:
Very useful review thank you! :D
I noticed on the fake 4-pin header you were able to lower it to 450rpms in idle.
Here it varies from manufactuers and desings, for example this Phantek and some Scythe even when they are PWM fans can be lowered even more on voltage control than with PWM signal, this I assume that they have safety % where they dont allow the fan to spin lower on PWM, like for example for a CPU fan they dont want it to go lower than 500rpms, but with voltage control its different its feeding it less power. At the same time some fans can be lowered more on PWM, like for example Noctuas, this fans are very well tuned, where they don't have a safety %, where you can stop them if they reach a % lower than what they are rated, where with voltage they are not stable to go that low, hard to explain but really depends into how the fans were design by the manufacturers, not all fans are the same.

Pao338 wrote:
Needless to say I'm still quite undecided regarding the case fans.
I'm tempted to buy the NF-P14 FLX (they are not produced anymore but they are still sold....) due to their great acoustic (according to SPCR) and PWM range of control.
Phanteks PH-F140 HP along with the one that you nicely tested don't go lower than 450/560rpms plus the clicking/ticking at low rpms... :?
Have you actually tested the True Quiet 140? 800 rpm at full speed seems to me a little limiting and I'm concern about its cooling capabilities. Moreover, their declared noise level at 800rpms is double as the one of the NF-P14 FLX at 750 rpms.
(maybe I am making pointless considerations right here...)
From the review they seem to have almost identical cooling capabilities in relation to thei noise (the NF-P14 FLX seems slightly better). The review also states that airflow doesn't seem to have any direct correlation to anything...I know the test results support that idea but generally speaking do you agree with that statment?

How much high do your NF-A14 PWM fans get at high load?
I cant help you much here, way to many assumptions and things that i dont know. What i can tell you is that Antec true quiet 140s are really good fans tonally that an Asus motherboard will take them to inaudible levels, the main question is weather they are good enough to cool your setup to the load that you will drive the CPU. What i also can tell you is that case fans dont have as big impact as the CPU fan on CPU temperatures, 1000 rpms on 4 case fans and dropping them to 650rpms drops 5C on all cores in my setup (the CPU remain constant at 1k rpms), lowering the CPU fan to 650rpms was around 15C for me, so for this reason, i lower my max rpms of my case fans to 650rpms (this is full load), and kept my TY150 at 540rpm on idle and didnt limit it on load, so it can reach 1100rpm if it needs it.

Again these are decisions that you will have to take, as all setups are different and the workloads are different as well, so i cant tell you what to do fully, research and take your best guess. Antecs are good bet tonally, the question is in cooling, but to me there is no single fan that above 1k i can call it quiet, so saying antec can reach 800rpms is still very good on my book, but there are more things than just rpms, some fans are good for restricted slots some fans struggle, etc. But antec are also very cheap when you compare them to noctuas or noiseblockers.... so this would be my pick.

Now what you should look into is getting a good CPU cooler, Scythe Mugen 4 is a good bet with a very decent fan included, was reviewed by spcr and got the editors choice, for $50 its a very good cooler, and if you were to want to spend a little more, then Noctua NH-U14S would be my pic, really good cooler and comes with a very good PWM fan also that has a very good range of control, in Asus motherboard it will drop it super low on FanXpert2.

Good luck with your build, if you have any other questions let me know, just i think you are into a point where i cant help you much, its just more to build and test.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:15 pm 
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Abula wrote:
Good luck with your build, if you have any other questions let me know, just i think you are into a point where i cant help you much, its just more to build and test.


Thank you so much Abula, your help has been invaluable!
I am pretty sure I'll be bugging you again with my questions... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:20 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Quote:
4) Regarding the Antec True Quiet, I thought the minimum speed is 500 rpm. How is it possible to drop them to 200 rpms on idle? (maybe its a stupid question but I didn't understand how it is possible for some mobos to drop the rpms below the minimum speed declared by manufactures).

Fans have a min starting voltage and the rpm associated with it is around the min speed listed. However, it takes a lot less voltage to keep a fan spinning once it's started. So, some mobo's start the fans in BIOS at a higher voltage and then when the Windows utility takes over it can safely lower the voltage and rpm to a value less than the starting one.


Got it, thank you!
So you could never know exactly how low you can drop its rpm on your system unless you test it...


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing Fractal R4 case fans - PWM and ASUs motherboar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:16 pm 
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It appears to be the case that Intel is the only one to have all true PWM fan headers on its mobos.
In particular Intel DH87MC has 3 PWM fan headers (1 for the CPU and 2 for the chassis- front and rear), and Intel DZ87KLT-75K has 6 PWM fan headers (1 for the CPU, 4 for the chassis, and 1 auxiliary).
The DZ87KLT-75K is probably too expensive compared to equivalent mobos from competitors.


P.S. I opened a new discussion in the 'System Advice / Troubleshooting' section for help with the rest of my build. :D


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