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 Post subject: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:25 am 
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I'm putting together a gaming build which I plan to keep 5-6 years. I don't ever plan to overclock the CPU and I don't plan to ever upgrade so there's no need to leave room to do so. This is a gaming rig so I don't expect nor am I willing to pay big money for a super silent build. However, noise is a consideration and I'm not sure how to balance it. For example, super silent case fans may be a mute effort if the vid card fans are going to be louder anyway. In particular I need help considering the build as a whole verses addressing each individual component. Here's the core.

Case: Fractal Design R4 no side window, mid atx
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3 ATX LGA1150
CPU: Xeon E3 1230 v3
Graphics card: Sapphire R9 290 tri-x OC
Mem: 16 GB DDR3-1600

I'll pick up an SSD, HDD, and CD but otherwise that's it for power draw.

I know the R9 290's are notoriously loud, but the Sapphire has made huge gains over the stock version so don't assume this component will drag everything down in terms of noise or temp.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7601/sapp ... cooled-290

PSU
----
My starting place for PSU is the Seasonic 660watt xp2 which I hope to pick up for $80 at newegg during one of their reoccurring sales. How much power do I really need? Is 660watts overkill? I know it's a variable speed fan, sometimes turned off. Is this self regulating an internal function of the PSU or does it need fan monitoring function derived from the mobo? Most of all, will the gentle fan on this PSU be enough to keep my component cool? I'm open to getting an additional case fans as a solution, but I'm too ignorant to understand what I need or what the options are. I know there are (much) more expensive PSUs, but even I was willing to spend the money, would it really make much difference in terms of noise/temp? For example, what's the point of paying more for a quiet PSU if the GPU is going to make the case loud anyway?

Mother Board
---------------
I'm not married to the mobo listed above and very open to alternative suggestions. Because I'm not overclocking I don't need an expensive mobo. This one has a very stable price around $85. I'm not aware what this mobo has in terms of fan speed regulation or if I'll need that for the best build.

Fans/air flow
--------------
The Sapphire GPU is an unusually long card, about 11.6 inches. Should fit fine in the fractal, but I'm wondering if a long card with three fans will disturb the air flow design of the fractal either by the air currents it creates or by physically blocking off space. I know enough to keep the cables neatly tied back so to not be obstructive to air flow, but overall I'm quite clueless on air flow considerations and what kind of air pressure this build will create and how to tweak it. I'd like advice on whether or not the case and component fans will be good as is or if I need to change them, add additional fans, etc. Any advice along these lines is greatly appreciated. The idea of this post is really to address the entire build and how the components will work or not work in concert.

The only other thing I'll add is that I'm not in a big rush to buy. I'm basically waiting out the bitcoin pricing so it might be another month before I pull the trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:16 am 
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Location: Guatemala
joeythebull wrote:
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3 ATX LGA1150
CPU: Xeon E3 1230 v3

Mother Board
---------------
I'm not married to the mobo listed above and very open to alternative suggestions. Because I'm not overclocking I don't need an expensive mobo. This one has a very stable price around $85. I'm not aware what this mobo has in terms of fan speed regulation or if I'll need that for the best build.
First thing you do need to check is the if the Xeon will run on the consumer board you going for, in the past there were no issues, but intel has been asking mobo makers to not support Xeon CPUs on consumer based motherboards, some listen others dont, but crosscheck this before you buy.

Motherboard for me its one of the most important decision, for some its about the features and overclocking, for me its more about their support for fan control. Im not sure, as i havent own a gigabyte board in more than 5 years, so idk how is their fan control, from what i seen... well i dont see anything special there. Asus brings one of the best fan controls there are atm with FanXpert2, really good and i wished it was a stand alone software, but its pretty good still as long as you understand how the headers are design and choosing the proper fan for each slot. MSI and AsRock seem to offering two real 4pin PWM headers in some of their motherboards, and good bios fan control, for me this is how i like to control my fans, pure bios no software, but you do need to buy PWM fans and depending on the amount a PWM fan splitter.

Since you are looking for a budget motherboard, this are the two that im going to suggest you do more research on,

MSI H87-G43 LGA 1150 Intel H87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX High Performance CF Intel Motherboard - I would chose this if you are planning on changing all fans to PWM.
ASUS H87-PLUS LGA 1150 Intel H87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS - I would use this if you are planning on the stock fans or 3pins for cases fans, like Antec True Quiet 140s.

joeythebull wrote:
PSU
----
My starting place for PSU is the Seasonic 660watt xp2 which I hope to pick up for $80 at newegg during one of their reoccurring sales. How much power do I really need? Is 660watts overkill? I know it's a variable speed fan, sometimes turned off. Is this self regulating an internal function of the PSU or does it need fan monitoring function derived from the mobo? Most of all, will the gentle fan on this PSU be enough to keep my component cool? I'm open to getting an additional case fans as a solution, but I'm too ignorant to understand what I need or what the options are. I know there are (much) more expensive PSUs, but even I was willing to spend the money, would it really make much difference in terms of noise/temp? For example, what's the point of paying more for a quiet PSU if the GPU is going to make the case loud anyway?
The Seasonic SS-660XP2 to me its at a very fair price, considering that recently seasonic jack up their pricing on the 860/1000w platinum series to absurd levels. In your other thread i suggested different options with different price points, chose whatever your budget allows, i think you should be fine with 450/550W PSU, but 650/660 is also fine, specially when the price points between some PSU is just $10.

joeythebull wrote:
I know it's a variable speed fan, sometimes turned off. Is this self regulating an internal function of the PSU or does it need fan monitoring function derived from the mobo?
Its self regulated based on temperature, no fan monitoring is available on seasonic PSU, some corsair do offer via their propietary c link.

joeythebull wrote:
For example, what's the point of paying more for a quiet PSU if the GPU is going to make the case loud anyway?
Go one step at the time, but buying quiet components will help you down the road trouble shooting and focusing on single noise sources. For example i dont like your choice of GPU, but i dont think there is GPU on earth that the prolimatech mk-26 cant handle, so there is fix there if it doesn't work the way you think it will. But for this i would try to chose quiet components for the rest so you only deal with the GPU later on. Go for a decent PSU, if you dont feel the platinum certification is worth the money, then go gold, Cosair RM series seems like a good option with it being relatively cheap, fully modular, semi passive, and gold certified.

joeythebull wrote:
Fans/air flow
--------------
The Sapphire GPU is an unusually long card, about 11.6 inches. Should fit fine in the fractal, but I'm wondering if a long card with three fans will disturb the air flow design of the fractal either by the air currents it creates or by physically blocking off space. I know enough to keep the cables neatly tied back so to not be obstructive to air flow, but overall I'm quite clueless on air flow considerations and what kind of air pressure this build will create and how to tweak it. I'd like advice on whether or not the case and component fans will be good as is or if I need to change them, add additional fans, etc. Any advice along these lines is greatly appreciated. The idea of this post is really to address the entire build and how the components will work or not work in concert.
I don't think you should worry much about the gpu disrupting the airflow. The current AMD GPUs run very hot, even if the cooler on the sapphire is very efficient and better than the stock, it will dump that heat on the case, so depending on how much is it.... you might or not need case fans to run faster to make up for heat loaded to the case. On the cable management, the R4 is very good, it will allow you tuck all the cables on the back and just come out where they get connected, so i wouldn't worry much. On additional fans... i like to have more in than out to create positive pressure and this way air wont tend to enter through none filter places like PCI covers, or the PSU when its passive, etc, also this would make some air exit on the PSU so when its passive it will get some cooling by forcing some air due to positive pressure, don't over do it though, just slightly more air in than out should be fine.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:27 am 
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Posts: 53
Abdula,

Thanks for yet another detailed response. The mobo I selected should work fine with the Xeon, but I will take your advice when it comes to checking out others and I will look into the ones you suggested. I need to learn about fan control and which boards support it.

While I certainly appreciate all your advice, I think you're getting ahead of me. I can afford to spend more but I'm trying to determine if it's worth it. The GPU you suggest is at least $100 more retail than the Sapphire I choose. The prolimatech mk-26 may be a great after market GPU cooler, but I don't necessarily want to spend another $70. Likewise with the PSU. I could spend $160 instead of $80, but do I need to? I don't so much mind another $10-$20 on the mobo, but is advanced fan control necessary? It seems to me the components I've chosen are quality and will offer me satisfactory cooling at load. If not, then that's really the first thing I need to address before noise concerns. However, if this build is good for cooling, then the only concern going forward is that of noise.

The first question I need to answer for myself is whether or not the basic build I suggest will be too noisy for me and one thing that will fundamentally determine this is how loud the Sapphire is. I know from a previous thread that your assumptions about this video card are very different than mine. With regard to temp and noise, based on Anandtech's article, I'm going on the premise that the Sapphire is significantly quieter than the stock GTX 780 ti and very likely on par with the MSI GTX 780 ti. If you don't believe this because you don't trust Anandtechs' review, then you're coming at this build from a completely different starting point.

Stepping back a bit, what if I keep the build just as written in my OP, with the 660W Seasonic xp2, and maybe throw in an extra case fan, while not having any advanced fan controls coming from the mobo. Starting from that point, how loud will it be? Maybe I'll find that noise level acceptable? That's a hard question to answer, I know, but until I get some idea of what that answer is, it's hard to go forward or justify the cost increases you suggest.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:55 am 
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Location: Guatemala
Its way to hard to answer your questions, all are subjective, noise is not something that we all measure the same, its not like temperature that its measurable, given that noise can be measure in dbs, its not that matters, noise has a characters, tonality, each component have a sonic signature that you might or not be fine..... and thus each person also have their own value or what they willing to take, usually things that dont have moving parts do not create noise (like hdds and fans), still there are low end noises that bother me, really depends on the tone and even there are other factors to take into account like ambient noise.

I don't think you will get an answer to your questions, without owning anything the only thing that you can do is rely on comments and reviews, until you build the setup and you can decide if it was good enough for your own personal liking in terms of noise.

Just a warning about seasonic, all the seasonic builds i have done been perfect, one X660, two G550 and X400, no issues what so ever, so i trust seasonic as my gotto on PSUs, but there been multiple reports into coil whining, so its just a warning in case you get unlucky, but this can happen to any PSU or any component, so its not to discourage you but to warn you in case it happens. Corsair has been marketing thier RM line as noise free, and that dont have any coil whining, i personally dont believe this can be promised fully, i seen very few user reviews with them reporting it, and i do think they do tried to avoid it, and did a very good job, but its not impossible to avoid it fully, a lot of times its a combination of hardware that creates it, even power states can affect, that said, i havent seen it mentions as much as i seen seasonics, so it could be a better option and even cheaper.

And as a last comment, value of items is very relative to each user, that's why we have so many options, even from the same manufacturer, what is well worth the money to me might not be for most, this only you can decide.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:04 am 
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Posts: 53
Abula wrote:
Its way to hard to answer your questions, all are subjective, noise is not something that we all measure the same, its not like temperature that its measurable, given that noise can be measure in dbs, its not that matters, noise has a characters, tonality, each component have a sonic signature that you might or not be fine..... and thus each person also have their own value or what they willing to take, usually things that dont have moving parts do not create noise (like hdds and fans), still there are low end noises that bother me, really depends on the tone and even there are other factors to take into account like ambient noise.

I don't think you will get an answer to your questions, without owning anything the only thing that you can do is rely on comments and reviews, until you build the setup and you can decide if it was good enough for your own personal liking in terms of noise.


I get your point about specific kinds of noises, but I would argue that I should be able to get a better idea of what the overall noise is going to be based on the components I suggested but before the improvements you suggested. For example, the Anandtech review for the Sapphire uses a hardware build similar to mine except they use a more powerful CPU and the case is a NZXT Phantom 630 Windowed Edition. With this setup they had a 43 db noise level AT LOAD. I was hoping someone could look at that build and size it up against my proposed build and see if I'm in the ball park. For example, I have no idea if the Phantom case is a huge improvement over the Fractal R4 in terms of sound proofing. I might decide that anything less than 48 db is good for my needs and then I can come to an educated conclusion on what hardware to start with. But right now I'm just totally in the dark. Assuming the Anandtech review is legitimate, can I expect my proposed build to put me in the mid 40s??? I really have no idea, but if so I think I'd be happy with that without upgrading the components further.

Along these lines let me show my ignorance by asking a basic sound question. Let me make up an example. Say I have a GPU fan that's kicking out 47 db of noise. Then, say I have two case fans, one generating 42 db and another generating 43 db. For simplicity, say nothing else is generating noise. How will that effect the overall noise of the case? Will the overall case noise rise to over 47 db? Is total noise an effect of cumulative noise or does the highest component noise set a kind of ceiling?

Putting noise aside, do you think the build I suggested would provide adequate cooling? I'm a little concerned about the seasonic PSU fan.

Quote:
Just a warning about seasonic...

Yes, I have heard that about the seasonics and appreciate the warning. My concern with the seasonic is firstly whether or not it can provide adequate cooling for this build. Again, trying to get things in perspective, in terms of noise, how do you think it would compare to the Corsair AX1200i used in the Anandtech review?

Thanks for your advice. I'm still researching those mobos and learning about fan controls, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:39 pm 
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joeythebull wrote:
I have no idea if the Phantom case is a huge improvement over the Fractal R4 in terms of sound proofing.


Broadly speaking no, it isn't (even better, IMVHO it isn't any improvement over the R4), but with a "caveat": any enclosure will "sound" accordingly to the component inside it.


joeythebull wrote:
My concern with the seasonic is firstly whether or not it can provide adequate cooling for this build.


Cooling? No PSU should act as an added exhaust path. Broadly speaking, the Seasonic is more than adequate to empower such a rig.


joeythebull wrote:
how do you think it would compare to the Corsair AX1200i used in the Anandtech review?


I was able to compare an AX1200 with an AX850 (Seasonic based) and it was noticeably noisier during normal use (to be fair at very high loads usually Seasonic controllers are often too much aggressive).

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Luca,

Hmm... I'm concerned when you say that the seasonic gets "aggressive" at high loads. Being this is a gaming build, I expect high loads to be common and a PSU that's only quiet on little or normal loads is quite useless to me. The whole point of me comparing my build to the one in the Anandtech article was to establish a base for considering total sound. Would you say the seasonic at high load was a LOT louder than the AX1200 or were they pretty close? How much of a difference was there? I'm hoping to use this information to better determine if I need to upgrade from the Seasonic to a quieter PSU.

Hearing from you that my Fractal is as good if not better than the one in the Anandtech article is encouraging. I'm not sure the cavet applies as I'm using the same componets. In fact, my CPU would be less powerful and, in theory, require a less noisy fan to cool it. If my build is close enough to the Anandtech test build, then I'd assume my system noise at load would also be about the same. In that case, (no pun intended), I'd be very happy if my noise level was at or around 43 db (at load) and I wouldn't see the need to invest in more expensive components or after market coolers.

As for the PSU venting, Abdula recommended a good case fan for me in the Antec True Quiet 140. I think I could keep all my same components but do this inexpensive upgrade as a back exhaust which would give me the benefit of a little positive pressure as Abdula suggested. My feeling is that a quiet fan like this wouldn't add significant noise to the build as a whole.

Do you see flaws in my logic of comparing my build to that used by Anandtech? Is this a foolish way to look it?


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:18 am 
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joeythebull wrote:
I'm concerned when you say that the seasonic gets "aggressive" at high loads. Being this is a gaming build, I expect high loads to be common and a PSU that's only quiet on little or normal loads is quite useless to me. The whole point of me comparing my build to the one in the Anandtech article was to establish a base for considering total sound. Would you say the seasonic at high load was a LOT louder than the AX1200 or were they pretty close? How much of a difference was there? I'm hoping to use this information to better determine if I need to upgrade from the Seasonic to a quieter PSU.


The Seasonic controller is temperature AND load based: so, with reference to the 660, I guess it will probably be noisier than the AX1200 at the attended average gaming load (something around 300-350W), providing that at 250W it is clearly audible and at 400W it is actually loud.

On the contrary, the same Seasonic controller on a PSU of 850W-1kW would drive the PSU fan a lot quieter than on the 660W, and so I guess it will probably be quieter than the AX1200 one at the same power level.

As far as I know the quietest PSUs at your expected load power level are the beQuiet Dark Power Pro and the Super Flower based unit above the 750W level. I bet even the Corsair RM-650/750/850 would be a lot quieter than either the Seasonic 660 or the Corsair AX1200.


joeythebull wrote:
I'm not sure the cavet applies as I'm using the same componets. In fact, my CPU would be less powerful and, in theory, require a less noisy fan to cool it. If my build is close enough to the Anandtech test build, then I'd assume my system noise at load would also be about the same. In that case, (no pun intended), I'd be very happy if my noise level was at or around 43 db (at load) and I wouldn't see the need to invest in more expensive components or after market coolers.


I haven't understood your thoughts but, at any rate, the NXZT enclosure sports two 800rpm 200mm fan which are way more noticeable than the 140mm FD ones, period. Moreover the NZXT enclosure is far more open than the R4 (so the are direct escapes for noise): period again. On its own the 630 is a noisier case than the R4.

On the other hand, those 200mm fan *may* provide a better cooling for the hw inside the enclosure, which *might* emits less noise than in a hotter R4: that's the reason behind my state about "sounding" accordingly the hw parts. Whether or not it should occurr, I can't help, sorry.


joeythebull wrote:
As for the PSU venting, Abdula recommended a good case fan for me in the Antec True Quiet 140. I think I could keep all my same components but do this inexpensive upgrade as a back exhaust which would give me the benefit of a little positive pressure as Abdula suggested. My feeling is that a quiet fan like this wouldn't add significant noise to the build as a whole.


I own that fan but I don't like it very much, because in my experience when it's effective it will be already noticeable: but, to be fair, IMHO that's true for any 140mm fan (good or not).
Otherwise, in my experience a positive pressure setup very often works lowering both temperature and noise: the only serious drawback I see is dust. Very often you will be told that a positive pressure setup acts against dust build-up: nonetheless, in my experience, without effective dust filters at the intakes (particularly the lower ones), the dust inside rise and rise.
But a too restrictive filter reduce cooling and increase noise: as I dont' own an R4 now, I don't know its relevant dust "resilience", so IMVHO you have just to try and see (I can only guess the more open NZXT could be even worse with reference to dust).


joeythebull wrote:
Do you see flaws in my logic of comparing my build to that used by Anandtech? Is this a foolish way to look it?


I'm not sure to understand all your concerns (english is not my language): at any rate, at first glance I would not trust Anandtech at all, about measured noise levels and relevant subjective judgements over them, so comparing a future build to what they saying of an unknown (either to you or to me ) rig is rather meaningless.

Broadly speaking, if I were you, I would build my rig using the quietest parts I can afford and then I will sit and see whether or not I will need to change anything: with reference to this thought, I guess the 660W Seasonic is not the best candidate to build such a rig (I mean: with a thermal load of about 350W in a quiet but relatively hot FD R4), nor it is a Corsair AX1200 (for different reasons).

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:51 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
The Seasonic controller is temperature AND load based: so, with reference to the 660, I guess it will probably be noisier than the AX1200 at the attended average gaming load (something around 300-350W), providing that at 250W it is clearly audible and at 400W it is actually loud.

On the contrary, the same Seasonic controller on a PSU of 850W-1kW would drive the PSU fan a lot quieter than on the 660W, and so I guess it will probably be quieter than the AX1200 one at the same power level.


I think I understand and because I'm not shopping for a 850W PSU, it looks like the Seasonic 660 would be louder than the AX1200 at load. In the Anandtech articles, they had the Sapphire vid card pulling 413 watts. Sapphire was able to make huge strides on the r9 290 in terms of noise and temperature, but the power consumption remained high.

Quote:
As far as I know the quietest PSUs at your expected load power level are the beQuiet Dark Power Pro and the Super Flower based unit above the 750W level. I bet even the Corsair RM-650/750/850 would be a lot quieter than either the Seasonic 660 or the Corsair AX1200.


I'm having a little trouble finding the beQuiet Dark Power Pro. Saw the 550W version on Amazon for $269 which makes it out of the question and I couldn't find the Super Flower at all. Looks like I just missed a deal on the Corsair RM650 for $80 over at newegg. Good to know the Corsair RM650 is quieter at load, but does it still sound okay with small loads?

Quote:
I haven't understood your thoughts...


I'm making two assumptions. 1) The Anandtech review of the Sapphire is legitimate and reasonably accurate. 2) If I build a PC with similar or better ("quieter") components, then I should expect to get about the same noise level. That's it. Theoretically, if my case (Fractal) it quieter, my CPU (Xeon) is cooler because it's less powerful, and my PSU is quieter, then I should have reasonable expectation that my build will have about the same noise level... 43 db at load. One problem might be if my planned components are not able to keep up with the cooling in which case I would have to upgrade them or change the design which in turn could mean more noise. For example, maybe the fans I'm using with the fractal won't be able to do a good enough job, maybe I'll need to add a side fan for the vid card, etc.

Quote:
...but, at any rate, the NXZT enclosure sports two 800rpm 200mm fan which are way more noticeable than the 140mm FD ones, period. Moreover the NZXT enclosure is far more open than the R4 (so the are direct escapes for noise): period again. On its own the 630 is a noisier case than the R4.

On the other hand, those 200mm fan *may* provide a better cooling for the hw inside the enclosure, which *might* emits less noise than in a hotter R4: that's the reason behind my state about "sounding" accordingly the hw parts. Whether or not it should occurr, I can't help, sorry.


Well, that brings me back to my first concern which is cooling. If my proposed setup can't keep the case cool, then any concerns about the noise are pointless.

RE: Antec 140. If you have a better case fan to suggest I'd like to hear it. Maybe something in a 200mm? As for dust, I've built a few PCS and I think I know what to expect. I believe the fractal comes with intake filters so I'll just have to clean them from time to time. I appreciate the warnings and suggestions and I will opt for positive pressure.


Quote:

I'm not sure to understand all your concerns (english is not my language): at any rate, at first glance I would not trust Anandtech at all, about measured noise levels and relevant subjective judgements over them, so comparing a future build to what they saying of an unknown (either to you or to me ) rig is rather meaningless.


Abula also didn't trust Anandtech. Do you have a reason to think they are untrustworthy?

Quote:
Broadly speaking, if I were you, I would build my rig using the quietest parts I can afford and then I will sit and see whether or not I will need to change anything: with reference to this thought, I guess the 660W Seasonic is not the best candidate to build such a rig (I mean: with a thermal load of about 350W in a quiet but relatively hot FD R4), nor it is a Corsair AX1200 (for different reasons).


I understand your point and I could afford to spend a lot more, but I'm trying not to spend more than I need to. Looks like the Corsair RM650 might be better for me, something that Abula also recommended. I'll make that my PSU of choice instead of the Seasonic 660W.

Thank you very much for your time and many comments.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:23 am 
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joeythebull wrote:
I'm having a little trouble finding the beQuiet Dark Power Pro. Saw the 550W version on Amazon for $269 which makes it out of the question and I couldn't find the Super Flower at all.


You may find the DarkPower Pro on NCIX around 150 USD, and about the SuperFlower-based units, you may look for a Kingwin Lazer Platinum. You may use the pcpartpicker.com service to find some deals.


joeythebull wrote:
Looks like I just missed a deal on the Corsair RM650 for $80 over at newegg. Good to know the Corsair RM650 is quieter at load, but does it still sound okay with small loads?


I suggested the RM series because it operates fanless up to 50% of their rated power: so that series is silent at low loads.
In your specific case, probably a RM750 may be a safer bet (and probably a better built unit) than the smaller RM650.


joeythebull wrote:
I should have reasonable expectation that my build will have about the same noise level... 43 db at load.


They have just told us that level is "quiet". But is it really quiet? In my experience anything higher than about 30dB is not acceptable.
How much will be those my 30dB in their scale: maybe just 43? Are they corresponding to their 37dB level? Or even 49? I don't know.


joeythebull wrote:
One problem might be if my planned components are not able to keep up with the cooling in which case I would have to upgrade them or change the design which in turn could mean more noise. For example, maybe the fans I'm using with the fractal won't be able to do a good enough job, maybe I'll need to add a side fan for the vid card, etc.


If I understood you correctly, the worst case scenario is to accept a some temperature penality for the video card.

That Tri-X heatsink is capable to cool the Hawaii down to about 70-75°C at load, while the stock one should exhibit an about 20°C penalty over those values: so you have room to grow.

What really matters it is how the card will react to that temp increase: with a Nvidia card, usually I can use Afterburner to cook a custom fan curve, absorbing the whole temp penalty without any noise penalty, so the card will run hotter but still safely, and that's all.
With several AMD card I can do about the same with SpeedFan (I've done it on several 7770 and 7850), but really I don't know anything about your Sapphire R9 290.

If you won't be able to control the fan behaviour, the heat build up due to the lower R4 sound level might be self-defeating, as the card will speed up its fans (so you may need additional intakes).


joeythebull wrote:
Well, that brings me back to my first concern which is cooling. If my proposed setup can't keep the case cool, then any concerns about the noise are pointless.


A well tought quiet rig run hotter than a (well tought) noisy one: it's a trade off, you can't escape from it.


joeythebull wrote:
Antec 140. If you have a better case fan to suggest I'd like to hear it. Maybe something in a 200mm? As for dust, I've built a few PCS and I think I know what to expect. I believe the fractal comes with intake filters so I'll just have to clean them from time to time. I appreciate the warnings and suggestions and I will opt for positive pressure.


Well, it's just my personal opinion on 140mm (and larger) fans as intake/exhaust: when they are really more effective than a 120mm one, they can't be exactly quiet. Said that, the TruQuiet is one of the best among them.


joeythebull wrote:
Abula also didn't trust Anandtech. Do you have a reason to think they are untrustworthy?


I find it hard to address such a discussion in english: I think that those measures are unreliable due to the relevant too much high noise threshold. When you measure a sound with a microphone an high baseline noise level will mask lots of actual differences, and different sound sources cannot be algebrically summed "sic et simpliciter", the relevant spectral analysis really matters.

And I cannot trust their subjective judgements cause I have not any shared background with the Anand's folks: what can be enough quiet according to them, it can be not acceptable to me with reference to either level or sound signature.

On the contrary in a noise-focused community (like SPCR is) we share some collective thoughts (you may think that sharing sort of a "collective mind") based on actual experiences (and the much more focused reviews performed by the SPCR Staff).

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:50 am 
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Luca,

You say Corsair RM 750W instead of Corsair RM 650. I do not need the extra wattage, but you say go 750 only because it is quieter at 1/2 power, right? But if I get the 750W won't I waste electricity and spend more on power every day?

I was able to find the dark power pro for $160 for 550W, or $180 for the 660W. I found the Kingwin Lazer Platinum for $125 for 550W or $175 for the 650W. I think I would prefer the Kingwin Lazer Platnium 550W over the Corsair RM 750 if you think 550 Watts would be enough. What do you think?

I see what you mean about Anandtech. It's hard to know what noise levels really are, but I think I could tolerate more than 30 db. Once everything is built, I don't want to have to monitor everything and yet I want it to last 5-6 years and maybe longer so I won't want it to run too hot. In that case I will probably opt for more noise.

You and Abdula have convinced me to get a better PSU that I first considered, but I think I will stick with the Sapphire R9 290 and one extra case fan. That should get me started. After that I guess I'll have to decide what I need once it's built.

Oh, I was thinking about a Cooler master TX3 for the Xeon CPU. Does that sound okay?


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:38 pm 
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joeythebull wrote:
you say go 750 only because it is quieter at 1/2 power, right?


Yes, it is right, mostly: last but not least the relevant OEM is a better one (Chicony vs CWT).


joeythebull wrote:
But if I get the 750W won't I waste electricity and spend more on power every day?


Nothing really noticeable, or so I guess: the added cost per year could be around 5 USD (about 40-50c/mo, less than 2c/day) in the worst case scenario (your rig idling 24/7 the whole year long), while at load it's true the opposite, the RM750 is more efficient than the RM650 (so depending on usage the RM750 may be cheaper to operate than the RM650).


joeythebull wrote:
I think I would prefer the Kingwin Lazer Platnium 550W over the Corsair RM 750 if you think 550 Watts would be enough. What do you think?


Personally I would go for the Kingwin, it's a better unit than the Corsair RM series.


joeythebull wrote:
Oh, I was thinking about a Cooler master TX3 for the Xeon CPU. Does that sound okay?


Well, IMHO it seems a bit too much on the small side for the task, but providing you are able to drive properly its loud fan (2800rpm), it could even work. Nonetheless I guess there's about nothing at a similar price.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:06 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
you say go 750 only because it is quieter at 1/2 power, right?


Yes, it is right, mostly: last but not least the relevant OEM is a better one (Chicony vs CWT).


Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Chicony vs CWT?

Quote:

joeythebull wrote:
But if I get the 750W won't I waste electricity and spend more on power every day?


Nothing really noticeable, or so I guess: the added cost per year could be around 5 USD (about 40-50c/mo, less than 2c/day) in the worst case scenario (your rig idling 24/7 the whole year long), while at load it's true the opposite, the RM750 is more efficient than the RM650 (so depending on usage the RM750 may be cheaper to operate than the RM650).


Okay that doesn't seem to be an issue then, thanks.

Quote:

joeythebull wrote:
I think I would prefer the Kingwin Lazer Platnium 550W over the Corsair RM 750 if you think 550 Watts would be enough. What do you think?


Personally I would go for the Kingwin, it's a better unit than the Corsair RM series.


But do you think 550W is enough power for this build? Would be nice to spend $125 instead of $180 for the 660W.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
Oh, I was thinking about a Cooler master TX3 for the Xeon CPU. Does that sound okay?


Well, IMHO it seems a bit too much on the small side for the task, but providing you are able to drive properly its loud fan (2800rpm), it could even work. Nonetheless I guess there's about nothing at a similar price.


I would ask what you recommend but I'm afraid you'd raise my costs another $100. ha ha. I guess this is the kind of thing I can upgrade later if necessary. Why wouldn't I be able to drive the fan properly with the build I propose?

BTW, the mother board I first mentioned (Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3) does have fan controls so I think that should be enough to run the fans as needed, right?


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:10 pm 
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joeythebull wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Chicony vs CWT?
These are PSU OEM manufactures, most retail PSU you see are not made by the company it sells them, but by OEM manufacturer (sometimes design by them sometimes by the seller). There are a lot of OEM PSU manufcatuers, for example Seasonic, Superflower, Delta, CWT, Chicony, Flextronics, to mentions some, but there are more out there.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:40 pm 
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Your stressed load power is ~400W, a big gaming load will be in the 300-350W range. A 550W PSU will certainly work, but the fan will have ramped up. Whether or not it's louder than your R9 290 is <shrug>. If you go with a higher wattage of the same model (assuming the same OEM/mfgr), it will be quieter, but may use a few more watts for idle/2D loads. Not a lot, just a few.

You haven't mentioned your monitor resolution. I hope the heck it's >>1080p, otherwise your gfx card is serious overkill.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:18 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
A 550W PSU will certainly work, but the fan will have ramped up.


Uh? Maybe I've not understood what you said, but you might check the relevant data, Steve:

BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 550W

Kingwin Lazer Platinum 550W


joeythebull wrote:
But do you think 550W is enough power for this build? Would be nice to spend $125 instead of $180 for the 660W.


As already said, it's not a matter of power, it's just a matter of fan profile: any PSU capable of 400W DC is enough powerful (just for example, with a 350W PSU - Enermax ECO80 - I've driven a folding rig with a Phenom II X4 Black Edition - TDP 125W - and a pair of GTX 460 1GB - TDP > 260W - without issues).

The Seasonic 660 is more than capable (it's one of the best PSU available): but giving the proposed components, more probably that not its fan controller will start too much early and too much aggressively at load.

This is the only reason I've suggested a different PSU: over that SS 660, a BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 550W, a Kingwin Lazer Platinum 550W, a Corsair RM750, a Seasonic Platinum 860 or Gold 1050, they all have a more favourable fan profile (with reference to an expected 350W power draw).


joeythebull wrote:
I would ask what you recommend but I'm afraid you'd raise my costs another $100. ha ha. I guess this is the kind of thing I can upgrade later if necessary. Why wouldn't I be able to drive the fan properly with the build I propose?

BTW, the mother board I first mentioned (Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3) does have fan controls so I think that should be enough to run the fans as needed, right?


I can't help about that Gigabyte: usually in the past Gigabyte boards had fairly restrictive fan controllers, so they weren't up to the silencer task. I don't know Haswell ones, so I've neither no clue to think they are improved, nor to say they don't. I can only notice that seems a rather basic one, so your mileage may vary.

About the cooler, to be actually quiet the CPU heatsink fan should spin relatively slow: IMO, ideally no more than 1200rpm for an 80mm fan, no more than 900-1000rpm for a 92mm fan, no more than 600-700rpm for a 120mm fan, and no more than 400-500rpm for a 140mm fan (less than ideally I would say 1500rpm/80mm, 1200rpm/92mm, 800rpm/120mm, 700rpm/140mm).

To spin slowly without overheating the CPU at load, the heatsink itself should be relatively big, and the fan controller should not react aggressively to the CPU temp increase (this even because the human ear reacts less favorably to rapid changes in pressure/sound level).
Now the TX3 is small and with a too much fast spinning fan: so the motherboard fan controller have to damp the fan speed and the relevant rising pace.

Can the Gigabyte board do that? As said, I can't help.

Broadly speaking, the most flexible fan controls usually belong to high end motherboards, and among the various brands my preferences goes to Intel Extreme, MSI, ASUS, ASRock (in this order).

Last but not least, you surely don't need 100 bucks to purchase a real performing cooler: but IMVHO you can't pick a truly good one with less than 30-40 bucks, at least noise-wise.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Abula wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Chicony vs CWT?
These are PSU OEM manufactures, most retail PSU you see are not made by the company it sells them, but by OEM manufacturer (sometimes design by them sometimes by the seller). There are a lot of OEM PSU manufcatuers, for example Seasonic, Superflower, Delta, CWT, Chicony, Flextronics, to mentions some, but there are more out there.


Okay, so if I decide I wanted a Kingwin Platinum 550W, is there a OEM version or other brand that's the same thing but perhaps cheaper?


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:04 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
A 550W PSU will certainly work, but the fan will have ramped up.


Uh? Maybe I've not understood what you said, but you might check the relevant data, Steve:

BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 550W

Kingwin Lazer Platinum 550W


I think I just misunderstood what you meant. Thanks for the info.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
But do you think 550W is enough power for this build? Would be nice to spend $125 instead of $180 for the 660W.


As already said, it's not a matter of power, it's just a matter of fan profile: any PSU capable of 400W DC is enough powerful (just for example, with a 350W PSU - Enermax ECO80 - I've driven a folding rig with a Phenom II X4 Black Edition - TDP 125W - and a pair of GTX 460 1GB - TDP > 260W - without issues).

The Seasonic 660 is more than capable (it's one of the best PSU available): but giving the proposed components, more probably that not its fan controller will start too much early and too much aggressively at load.

This is the only reason I've suggested a different PSU: over that SS 660, a BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 550W, a Kingwin Lazer Platinum 550W, a Corsair RM750, a Seasonic Platinum 860 or Gold 1050, they all have a more favourable fan profile (with reference to an expected 350W power draw).


Okay, I believe I understand all that. Rather than get a 750 RM Corsair, I think I'll spend some more and get the Kingwin Platinum 550w.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
I would ask what you recommend but I'm afraid you'd raise my costs another $100. ha ha. I guess this is the kind of thing I can upgrade later if necessary. Why wouldn't I be able to drive the fan properly with the build I propose?

BTW, the mother board I first mentioned (Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3) does have fan controls so I think that should be enough to run the fans as needed, right?


I can't help about that Gigabyte: usually in the past Gigabyte boards had fairly restrictive fan controllers, so they weren't up to the silencer task. I don't know Haswell ones, so I've neither no clue to think they are improved, nor to say they don't. I can only notice that seems a rather basic one, so your mileage may vary.

About the cooler, to be actually quiet the CPU heatsink fan should spin relatively slow: IMO, ideally no more than 1200rpm for an 80mm fan, no more than 900-1000rpm for a 92mm fan, no more than 600-700rpm for a 120mm fan, and no more than 400-500rpm for a 140mm fan (less than ideally I would say 1500rpm/80mm, 1200rpm/92mm, 800rpm/120mm, 700rpm/140mm).

To spin slowly without overheating the CPU at load, the heatsink itself should be relatively big, and the fan controller should not react aggressively to the CPU temp increase (this even because the human ear reacts less favorably to rapid changes in pressure/sound level).
Now the TX3 is small and with a too much fast spinning fan: so the motherboard fan controller have to damp the fan speed and the relevant rising pace.

Can the Gigabyte board do that? As said, I can't help.


I appreciate the explanation. My goal is not for the CPU fan to be quiet but rather that it not be too loud. Again, there's a limit to how much I want to spend to make things quieter and there's a limit to how quiet I can really make things considering the noise the video card will make.

Quote:
Broadly speaking, the most flexible fan controls usually belong to high end motherboards, and among the various brands my preferences goes to Intel Extreme, MSI, ASUS, ASRock (in this order).

Last but not least, you surely don't need 100 bucks to purchase a real performing cooler: but IMVHO you can't pick a truly good one with less than 30-40 bucks, at least noise-wise.


Alright, knowing I'm going to use a mobo with only basic fan controls, please recommend a reasonably priced CPU fan for the Xeon.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:17 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Your stressed load power is ~400W, a big gaming load will be in the 300-350W range. A 550W PSU will certainly work, but the fan will have ramped up. Whether or not it's louder than your R9 290 is <shrug>. If you go with a higher wattage of the same model (assuming the same OEM/mfgr), it will be quieter, but may use a few more watts for idle/2D loads. Not a lot, just a few.

You haven't mentioned your monitor resolution. I hope the heck it's >>1080p, otherwise your gfx card is serious overkill.


That sounds right. According to the Anandtech review, they were pushing 413 watts at load. I'm assuming this was the whole system rather than just the GPU.

Steve, you're addressing a point I've raised here several times but failed to receive or at least understand the response. My video card will generate noise. Likely it will be the loudest component in my PC box. What's the point of spending a lot of extra money to quiet my PSU if the video card will always be louder? Same question for the CPU fan, case fan, etc. Perhaps I'm ignorant on sound physics, but it seems to me if someone in the room is yelling, it doesn't really matter if ten other people in the room are whispering or talking in regular voices. Other voices don't make the yelling louder and the yelling is what I'm going to notice. Should I even care if my PSU gets louder at load if my video card is nosier anyway?

My monitor was actually my big purchase. I'm over forty and don't see as well as I used to without glasses (and I probably don't hear quite as well either!). I got a Monoprice 27" IPS 2560 x 1440 (#10489). I'm very happy with it and it's considerably cheaper than other brands of equal quality. There are a number of high mark reviews on it.
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=1 ... %2B27%2522


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:09 pm 
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Luca: noted.

Always look at the test setups for reviews. In Anandtech's case, it's an overclocked Intel Core i7-4960X @ 4.2GHz (stock clock is 3.6GHz). The TDP is 130W, then add more for overclock and overvolt...maybe another 40-50W for a total of ~180W. Your CPU is 84W TDP. :)

PSU noise: I wouldn't stress over it. Yeah, the video card will be the noisiest thing at load. However, it's ALL additive...the PSU, your case fans, the CPU cooler, the video card. They will all ramp while gaming. Makes sense to 'drain the swamp' as much as you can within your budget.

Also, if you are waiting a bit to get the video card, Nvidia has started to release their Maxwell GPUs. Maybe the higher end replacements will come out before you pull the trigger on the R9. Their first card out, the GTX 750 Ti, beats the comparable AMD cards with a stick regarding power efficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:58 pm 
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joeythebull wrote:
Okay, so if I decide I wanted a Kingwin Platinum 550W, is there a OEM version or other brand that's the same thing but perhaps cheaper?


I think no, but I'm not absolutely sure about that.
Probably the same Superflower may be cheaper: unfortunately that brand isn't available in the U.S.A. (just Pacific area and Europe, AFAIK).
There are also several EVGA PSUs which are priced well in their SuperNOVA series, but up to now EVGA doesn't carry any Superflower PSU under 1000W.


joeythebull wrote:
I think I just misunderstood what you meant. Thanks for the info.


That was a note for CA_Steve about a 350W load on a 550W PSU.


joeythebull wrote:
I appreciate the explanation. My goal is not for the CPU fan to be quiet but rather that it not be too loud. Again, there's a limit to how much I want to spend to make things quieter and there's a limit to how quiet I can really make things considering the noise the video card will make.


What about sticking with the stock cooler? It comes for free.


joeythebull wrote:
Alright, knowing I'm going to use a mobo with only basic fan controls, please recommend a reasonably priced CPU fan for the Xeon.


I just said that I don't know how the proposed Gigabyte control the fans: a Cooler Master Hyper 412S might be an option, as well as a Scythe Mugen PCGH Edition, as they have fixed speed, not loud, fans.

Generally speaking, you can't use a PC like a refrigerator, or an home appliance, it's not completely "fire and forget".
How you operate it makes a difference. You say "my video card will be loud": are you sure about that? Look at the following screenshots:

Attachment:
r7700vbios.jpg
^^^ R7700 controlled by its vBIOS

Attachment:
r7700maxspeed.jpg
^^^ R7700 at max cooling

Attachment:
r7700speedfan.jpg
^^^ R7700 controlled by SpeedFan

As you can see, that videocard may be as loud as I want: I can even stop its two fans, and I actually stop them under 38°C.
As said by CA_Steve, any noise source is additive, so it may well worth to take care of each one.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:53 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Luca: noted.

Always look at the test setups for reviews. In Anandtech's case, it's an overclocked Intel Core i7-4960X @ 4.2GHz (stock clock is 3.6GHz). The TDP is 130W, then add more for overclock and overvolt...maybe another 40-50W for a total of ~180W. Your CPU is 84W TDP. :)

PSU noise: I wouldn't stress over it. Yeah, the video card will be the noisiest thing at load. However, it's ALL additive...the PSU, your case fans, the CPU cooler, the video card. They will all ramp while gaming. Makes sense to 'drain the swamp' as much as you can within your budget.

Also, if you are waiting a bit to get the video card, Nvidia has started to release their Maxwell GPUs. Maybe the higher end replacements will come out before you pull the trigger on the R9. Their first card out, the GTX 750 Ti, beats the comparable AMD cards with a stick regarding power efficiency.


Thanks for clearing those things up and thanks for you advice. I hope the next generation cards come out as soon as possible, not because I want them but because the hope is the bitcoiners will go after them and I can finally find some price relief on the older generation of cards I'm targeting.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:14 am 
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Luca,

Regarding your last post, I've been told the stock fan is particularly loud even by non-spcr standards so I'll probably need to pick something up.

I need to research the gigabyte fan controls a little better. Besides the core components, I plan to run an SSD, HDD and a CD and I'll never upgrade. I don't think I'd be missing out on any needed features by using an H81 board. I never tried a mico ATX board before but it should fit in the Fractal.

Is the earlier "fan expert" version okay for Asus?
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/H81MA/#overview

How many actual onboard fan controlers should I have? I for CPU fan, and then one for the additional case fan I plan to buy? The front stock fans on the fractal are passive as I understand and I don't plan to change those. Aren't the video card fans usually regulated by the video card itself? I'd be worried that if I try to regulate them through the bios then the card would run too hot plus I'd just rather not bother. This is a factory overclocked video card.

I see the Kingwin 550W just went on sale for $115 at superbiz. I'm still a little worried it's going to heat up my case too much because the fan runs so little. I think I'm less tolerant of heat and more tolerant of noise. For you it might be the opposite.

Oh, and I understand your point about additive sound. Thanks for helping convince me to get a better PSU. I don't mind taking time to get things right at the start, but I don't plan to monitor things much after that and I don't like unnecessary software running in the background. If I can monitor and change a few settings in the bios, that's probably good enough for me.

Well, I really need to digest all this good information you guys have given me and do some more research! Well done Luca.


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:35 am 
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joeythebull wrote:
Regarding your last post, I've been told the stock fan is particularly loud even by non-spcr standards so I'll probably need to pick something up.


More probably that not the ones who told you the stock heatsink fan is loud are not even able to control that fan: said that, the stock fan is usually crap (I think it were the right word), but swapping it for just anything else doesn't still look like a good deal, IMO.


joeythebull wrote:
How many actual onboard fan controlers should I have? I for CPU fan, and then one for the additional case fan I plan to buy? The front stock fans on the fractal are passive as I understand and I don't plan to change those. Aren't the video card fans usually regulated by the video card itself? I'd be worried that if I try to regulate them through the bios then the card would run too hot plus I'd just rather not bother.


The R4 has a built-in sort of fan controller: so the case fans are not "passive", and even if they are not automatically driven by the case temperature (as it would be when connecting to some controllable header), they are feeded by a convenient, constant voltage.
At the lowest setting (5V) those FD fans should run relatively quiet, although not silently, so probably they will please you.

Broadly speaking you will need a 3 pin voltage controlled header for each 3 pin fan you have, and a 4 pin PWM header for each single temperature you want to tame.

With reference to the video card, I don't agree about being lazy, sorry.


joeythebull wrote:
I see the Kingwin 550W just went on sale for $115 at superbiz. I'm still a little worried it's going to heat up my case too much because the fan runs so little. I think I'm less tolerant of heat and more tolerant of noise. For you it might be the opposite.


If you're so concerned about overheating, then you should avoid like the plague motherboards with un-heatsinked power circuitry like the proposed Gigabyte. Said that, in the ATX specs the PSU don't have and should not have any cooling/exhaust role: the heat goes out through the back, the upper grille is an intake, while the fan spin so slow because the PSU wastes so little power into heat.
Not to mention that on the bottom there's no heat, as the hot air rise as in a chimney.


joeythebull wrote:
Oh, and I understand your point about additive sound. Thanks for helping convince me to get a better PSU. I don't mind taking time to get things right at the start, but I don't plan to monitor things much after that and I don't like unnecessary software running in the background. If I can monitor and change a few settings in the bios, that's probably good enough for me.


When you build a rig by yourself, instead of buying a pre-assembled one from a reputable manufacturer, you are also taking on part of the validation procedures usually carried out by the manufacturer engineers: you may rather to drop that task, but it's more a groundless pretension than a legitimate position. IMHO.

Maybe the learning curve for a quiet rig may be a bit steeper than playing with LEGO bricks, but there's no such a thing as a free lunch, you know.

At any rate, in the Fan section of SPCR website you will find a rather interesting article on SpeedFan: it may worth a read.
While if you don't want to tinkering with parts, buy some 7-8V adapter cable for each fan you have and connect all of them directly to a PSU 4-pin molex.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject: Re: New Gaming Build Advice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
quest_for_silence wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
Regarding your last post, I've been told the stock fan is particularly loud even by non-spcr standards so I'll probably need to pick something up.


More probably that not the ones who told you the stock heatsink fan is loud are not even able to control that fan: said that, the stock fan is usually crap (I think it were the right word), but swapping it for just anything else doesn't still look like a good deal, IMO.


I'm still unsure what cpu fan I'll get, but I'll heed your advice to get a good one. I'm trying to determine the features I need on the mobo for other non-noise related issues, but I'm also learning more about mobo fan controls. I haven't dismissed your advice. I'm just trying to consider a lot of factors.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
How many actual onboard fan controlers should I have? I for CPU fan, and then one for the additional case fan I plan to buy? The front stock fans on the fractal are passive as I understand and I don't plan to change those. Aren't the video card fans usually regulated by the video card itself? I'd be worried that if I try to regulate them through the bios then the card would run too hot plus I'd just rather not bother.


The R4 has a built-in sort of fan controller: so the case fans are not "passive", and even if they are not automatically driven by the case temperature (as it would be when connecting to some controllable header), they are feeded by a convenient, constant voltage.
At the lowest setting (5V) those FD fans should run relatively quiet, although not silently, so probably they will please you.

Broadly speaking you will need a 3 pin voltage controlled header for each 3 pin fan you have, and a 4 pin PWM header for each single temperature you want to tame.


I think my new Fractal will arrive today so I'll really get a closer look and learn more about it.

Quote:
With reference to the video card, I don't agree about being lazy, sorry.

joeythebull wrote:
I see the Kingwin 550W just went on sale for $115 at superbiz. I'm still a little worried it's going to heat up my case too much because the fan runs so little. I think I'm less tolerant of heat and more tolerant of noise. For you it might be the opposite.


If you're so concerned about overheating, then you should avoid like the plague motherboards with un-heatsinked power circuitry like the proposed Gigabyte. Said that, in the ATX specs the PSU don't have and should not have any cooling/exhaust role: the heat goes out through the back, the upper grille is an intake, while the fan spin so slow because the PSU wastes so little power into heat.
Not to mention that on the bottom there's no heat, as the hot air rise as in a chimney.


I don't think I'm hyper concerned about heat. I just think I care more about it than you do. As you said it's a balance between heat and noise. I'd rather side with keeping my components cool which is one of the reasons I'm not bothering to overclock the CPU as most gamers would. I'd like to keep this build for 5-6 years and then pass it on to a family member. Some of my older builds lasted 10 years before I just threw them away even though they still worked fine.

I'm sure you are right that by more active monitoring I could push my components harder and keep them quieter, but I'd rather the whole build be a little louder and not have to bother with the monitoring after initial setup. You can call that lazy if you want, but it's really just that you and I value different things.

That said, I see what you mean about the PSU. It just made me a little nervous having no fan running most of the time. I still plan to get the Kingwin 550W and appreciate the recommendation.

Quote:

joeythebull wrote:
Oh, and I understand your point about additive sound. Thanks for helping convince me to get a better PSU. I don't mind taking time to get things right at the start, but I don't plan to monitor things much after that and I don't like unnecessary software running in the background. If I can monitor and change a few settings in the bios, that's probably good enough for me.


When you build a rig by yourself, instead of buying a pre-assembled one from a reputable manufacturer, you are also taking on part of the validation procedures usually carried out by the manufacturer engineers: you may rather to drop that task, but it's more a groundless pretension than a legitimate position. IMHO.

Maybe the learning curve for a quiet rig may be a bit steeper than playing with LEGO bricks, but there's no such a thing as a free lunch, you know.


Over the last couples decades or so I've build 7 or 8 PCs and I've had no trouble getting them assembled and running and keeping them that way without frying the components and without the noise being too loud. There's nothing wrong with my "validation procedures." I think you just have higher standards with regards to noise levels and I'm glad you do otherwise you probably wouldn't be worth talking to!

I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge about keeping a PC quiet and your patience with me has been outstanding. However, I think we're getting to a point where you're trying to server me a gourmet meal when all I ever wanted was a well made hamburger. I can see how that would feel frustrating especially after such a long wandering thread like this one.

You've given me plenty of things to explore further more deeply and you've been very kind and generous with your time. I think I need time to digest it all. I'm happy to hear any last thoughts you have, but now I think I'll try to bring this thread to a close.

Thanks very much for your advice, and thanks also to Abula and Steve!


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