It is currently Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:09 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
I've been going through old posts were I got some good advice on PSUs but I'm realizing I'm a little confused on the wattage.

My first concern is that the specs on my vid card say a 750W PSU is REQUIRED. Research here and elsewhere suggests 550 may be enough for a stock R9 290, but I'm not sure if 550 is enough considering my vid card is slightly OCed by Sapphire. (my choice for CPU is not able to be OCed).

Here are a few PSUs I'm considering mostly based on SPC recommendations.

Kingwin 550W
Corsair RM 650 or 750
Be Quiet Dark Power pro 550 (BN600)

I can pick up the Corsair RM 750 for about $120, and in the interest of time, that's where I'm leaning, but I've heard there were some recalls on this model and that some models have unexpected noise at load. Can anyone confirm or deny the rumors?

I was hoping to spend between $100-$140 which shouldn't be too hard if a sale comes up. Any other PSU suggestions in the price range with the same noise levels and power would be appreciated. I'm basically going to buy the first one that fits my needs for a good price.

Is there an acceptable seasonic model in this price range? Past posts suggested the SS-660 might be too loud on load for my build...

Oh, and here's what may be a foolish idea.... I've been buying components as they've come on sale but I'd really like to test them out to at least make sure they work before my 30day return window closes. Of course I need a PSU for that... I have an old Seasonic S12-500. Do you think I could safely hook that up with my new build and run it on low load (no gaming) just to check and make sure my components are working? That would buy me some time to wait for a good price on a PSU. Of course I wouldn't want to risk harming my components. Do you think this would be okay to do on a strictly temporary basis?

Here's what I can find for specs on the S12-500:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817151024


Thanks.


My build, missing PSU:
-------------------------
Mobo: GA-B85-HD3:
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/produc ... id=4566#sp

CPU: Xeon E3 1230 V3
http://ark.intel.com/products/75054/int ... e-3_30-ghz

GPU: Sapphire R9 290 Tri-x OC (100362-2SR)
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentatio ... 0101&lid=1

Case: Fractal Design R4 no window

Memory: G.Skill DDR3 1600 2x8GB

HDD: 1TB Western Digital Blue

SSD: Samsung EVO 250GB

DVD: Lite-on

Xtra case fan: Antec TrueQuiet 140mm fan

CPU Cooler: Mugen 4 (SCMG-400)

OS: Win 8.1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
Your new graphics card draw about 250W DC at gaming, some slight more at stress testing: so anything starting from 400W may be enough for your build (so, as your S12 can supply about 400W through the 12V rail, it would be fine: I just guess it would be noisy).

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
quest_for_silence wrote:
Your new graphics card draw about 250W DC at gaming, some slight more at stress testing: so anything starting from 400W may be enough for your build (so, as your S12 can supply about 400W through the 12V rail, it would be fine: I just guess it would be noisy).


Luca,

The S12 would only be temporary, but I'm glad to hear you think it would be safe to use at low load for some testing. This will let me check my components. Assuming the 750 watt "requirement" is bogus, I'll aim for 550W and up.

Kingwin 550W (LZP-550).. currently at $135, occasionally on sale for $100-$115. On my last thread with you this was the PSU I was targeting but it has yet to come on sale. The Be Quiet is probably better, but I feel it's just too expensive.

Corsair RM 650 or 750... currently $120, but sometimes on sale for $100.
In terms of noise, do you think I'd be better off with the 650 or 750?
Have you heard anything about the RM 750/850 recalls? This was back in Nov 2013, but I'm not sure if older models are still being sold.
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=123484

Be Quiet Dark Power pro 550 (BN600)... can't seem to find this for less than $160. Rare sales might bring it to $114.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
Assuming the 750 watt "requirement" is bogus, I'll aim for 550W and up.


As I said elsewhere (among several other forumers), with reference to your setup the only reason to pick anything higher than 400/450W is a more favourable noise profile.


joeythebull wrote:
Kingwin 550W (LZP-550).. currently at $135, occasionally on sale for $100-$115. On my last thread with you this was the PSU I was targeting but it has yet to come on sale. The Be Quiet is probably better, but I feel it's just too expensive.


No, the Kingwin is - more probably that not - a better PSU than the BeQuiet: they are on par about noise, so you may pick the one you may rather.


joeythebull wrote:
Corsair RM 650 or 750... currently $120, but sometimes on sale for $100.
In terms of noise, do you think I'd be better off with the 650 or 750?


I've already told you so: the 750W may be a better option, but even the 650W should work flawlessly.
They are less good PSUs than the Kingwin, but more probably that not, they're not less quiet.

Just a note: some days ago EVGA released two new PSUs, the SuperNOVA G2 750W and 850W: the relevant OEM is Super Flower, the platform upon it's based is the Leadex Gold, which is slightly better than the original Golden King used on the Kingwin unit.
I think the 750W unit (SKU: 220-G2-0750-XR) should go for about 120 USD or less, so it may worth more than a look.


joeythebull wrote:
Have you heard anything about the RM 750/850 recalls? This was back in Nov 2013, but I'm not sure if older models are still being sold.
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=123484


Yes I know the original recall, it's mainly a consequence of the HardOCP review (where you can find more details): in my humble opinion, there's nothing to worry about.


joeythebull wrote:
Be Quiet Dark Power pro 550 (BN600)... can't seem to find this for less than $160. Rare sales might bring it to $114.)


As said, there are lots of alternatives if you can't find it at a convenient price.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:05 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4547
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
The S12 isn't compatible with Haswell's requirement to provide a minimum current load of 0.05 Amps on the 12V rail for the CPU.

Another thread on this.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
CA_Steve wrote:
The S12 isn't compatible with Haswell's requirement to provide a minimum current load of 0.05 Amps on the 12V rail for the CPU.


About a non-issue: it cannot activate the C6/C7 sleep state, so what? As you know, within Win7 you can't the same, even with certified PSUs.
On a temporary basis, it's more than adequate: I would be more worried about the 40dB at load...

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
quest_for_silence wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
Assuming the 750 watt "requirement" is bogus, I'll aim for 550W and up.


As I said elsewhere (among several other forumers), with reference to your setup the only reason to pick anything higher than 400/450W is a more favourable noise profile.


I understood what you meant about the 750 being more quiet but looking back over old posts I wasn't sure if I needed more than 650 to achieve the reduction in noise. As I understand, it's mostly about the fan not running at a certain load capacity and this can vary with brands a bit. 400/450 seems too low.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
Kingwin 550W (LZP-550).. currently at $135, occasionally on sale for $100-$115. On my last thread with you this was the PSU I was targeting but it has yet to come on sale. The Be Quiet is probably better, but I feel it's just too expensive.


No, the Kingwin is - more probably that not - a better PSU than the BeQuiet: they are on par about noise, so you may pick the one you may rather.


joeythebull wrote:
Corsair RM 650 or 750... currently $120, but sometimes on sale for $100.
In terms of noise, do you think I'd be better off with the 650 or 750?


Quote:
I've already told you so: the 750W may be a better option, but even the 650W should work flawlessly. They are less good PSUs than the Kingwin, but more probably that not, they're not less quiet.


Okay, I misunderstood you in the last thread. If the Kingwin 550 is better than the BeQuiet 550, then I might as well forget the BeQuiet because from what I've seen it's always more expensive and is less likely to go on sale.

Quote:
Just a note: some days ago EVGA released two new PSUs, the SuperNOVA G2 750W and 850W: the relevant OEM is Super Flower, the platform upon it's based is the Leadex Gold, which is slightly better than the original Golden King used on the Kingwin unit.
I think the 750W unit (SKU: 220-G2-0750-XR) should go for about 120 USD or less, so it may worth more than a look.


Thanks for the suggestion, but looking newegg, pcpartspicker, local stores and amazon I was unable to find the G2 for less than $200 except at Amazon where it goes for $130 but there's a 3-5 week wait. Just as before I haven't been able to find anyone selling super flower. When I mentioned this before you suggested the Kingwin.

Quote:
As said, there are lots of alternatives if you can't find it at a convenient price.


Well, if you have any more, let me know. It seems to me it's either the Kingwin or the Corsair. You dissuaded me from the Seasonics and the other options are either too expensive or not readily available to me here in the US. You don't seem very fond of the S12 but it got good reviews in its day and I've found its noise level to be tolerable. I probably have a greater tolerance for noise.

Thanks for your advice (again) Luca.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
CA_Steve wrote:
The S12 isn't compatible with Haswell's requirement to provide a minimum current load of 0.05 Amps on the 12V rail for the CPU.

Another thread on this.


I don't pretend to understand the reasoning for that requirement but it's just one more thing that makes me think it's better to just forget about the S12. Thanks for pointing that out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
I wasn't sure if I needed more than 650 to achieve the reduction in noise.


As you noted just below, it depends of the specific PSU.
Just as examples: in order to achieve the most favourable noise profile from the PSU alone, giving the expected power draw at load and depending of the ambient temperature, you don't need to pick up a so much overpowered unit with the quoted Kingwin or BeQuiet PSUs, or with an Enermax Platimax, while you may need to do so with a Seasonic X or P series, and you may rather to do so with a Corsair RM-series as they may run fanless up to 50% of their rated power. Each PSU has its own peculiarities.


joeythebull wrote:
As I understand, it's mostly about the fan not running at a certain load capacity and this can vary with brands a bit. 400/450 seems too low.


It would seem but it's just the real truth: however it's a simple sum, pick the relevant actual power draw for each part, then do the math.


joeythebull wrote:
Just as before I haven't been able to find anyone selling super flower. When I mentioned this before you suggested the Kingwin.


SuperFlower-branded units seem almost unobtainable in USA, and however I can't know every manufacturer which actually uses those SuperFlower platforms for their PSUs: so, I'm aware of several Kingwins, some EVGAs, some Rosewills too.
If you're looking for any alternative supplier for those same platforms, perhaps you may look for some more information at JonnyGuru's forum (they are much more focused onto PSUs themselves, than their noise).


joeythebull wrote:
You dissuaded me from the Seasonics and the other options are either too expensive or not readily available to me here in the US. You don't seem very fond of the S12 but it got good reviews in its day and I've found its noise level to be tolerable. I probably have a greater tolerance for noise.


About the Seasonic X or P, please mind: they're extremely good units, just I wouldn't expect that 660W can be the quietest of all the quoted units so far, when you will pull 350-400W from it inside an hot running case.

Maybe you have a greater tolerance for noise (but how many watts did you pull from the original S12?) than most SPCR regulars, it's not your fault: even better, in case you might stick with your original Seasonic Platinum, without being so picky as I could be. But if you ask to us which one to pick for a quiet rig like your one, the Kingwin is preferable. :wink:

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
quest_for_silence wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
I wasn't sure if I needed more than 650 to achieve the reduction in noise.


As you noted just below, it depends of the specific PSU.
Just as examples: in order to achieve the most favourable noise profile from the PSU alone, giving the expected power draw at load and depending of the ambient temperature, you don't need to pick up a so much overpowered unit with the quoted Kingwin or BeQuiet PSUs, or with an Enermax Platimax, while you may need to do so with a Seasonic X or P series, and you may rather to do so with a Corsair RM-series as they may run fanless up to 50% of their rated power. Each PSU has its own peculiarities.


Right, sorry to make you explain all that again. I just couldn't figure out from old posts if you were recommending the corsair RM 650 or corsair RM 750 for my particular needs. As it turns out I can get either one for the same price right now over at newegg. I might as well get the corsair RM 750. As you previously explained it doesn't use that much power at low or idle and more wattage means it should run more quietly under heavier loads. Because the fan kicks in later does that mean the 750 would generate more case heat than the 650?

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
As I understand, it's mostly about the fan not running at a certain load capacity and this can vary with brands a bit. 400/450 seems too low.


It would seem but it's just the real truth: however it's a simple sum, pick the relevant actual power draw for each part, then do the math.


True, but power usage data could be off a little, the R9 290 is factory OCed and I might plug in multiple USB devices from time to time, etc. Nice to have a little headroom.

Quote:
joeythebull wrote:
Just as before I haven't been able to find anyone selling super flower. When I mentioned this before you suggested the Kingwin.


SuperFlower-branded units seem almost unobtainable in USA, and however I can't know every manufacturer which actually uses those SuperFlower platforms for their PSUs: so, I'm aware of several Kingwins, some EVGAs, some Rosewills too.
If you're looking for any alternative supplier for those same platforms, perhaps you may look for some more information at JonnyGuru's forum (they are much more focused onto PSUs themselves, than their noise).

joeythebull wrote:
You dissuaded me from the Seasonics and the other options are either too expensive or not readily available to me here in the US. You don't seem very fond of the S12 but it got good reviews in its day and I've found its noise level to be tolerable. I probably have a greater tolerance for noise.


About the Seasonic X or P, please mind: they're extremely good units, just I wouldn't expect that 660W can be the quietest of all the quoted units so far, when you will pull 350-400W from it inside an hot running case.


I understand your reasoning and I appreciate you trying to get me the best PSU for my money.

Quote:
Maybe you have a greater tolerance for noise (but how many watts did you pull from the original S12?) than most SPCR regulars, it's not your fault: even better, in case you might stick with your original Seasonic Platinum, without being so picky as I could be. But if you ask to us which one to pick for a quiet rig like your one, the Kingwin is preferable. :wink:


Well, it's between the Kingwin 550 and the Corsair 650/750. I suspect my vid card noise makes the choice a bit irrelevant. I'm going to make up my mind by the end of the day and forgo the S12 option.

Thank you again for your advice and patience.

Edit: Would the Kingwin 550 generate more case heat than the Corsair 650/750?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
Because the fan kicks in later does that mean the 750 would generate more case heat than the 650?


They should generate the same heat, but I guess the RM750 heatsinks should heat up themselves marginally higher (because its fan shouldn't still spin despite an about 50W higher load).


joeythebull wrote:
True, but power usage data could be off a little, the R9 290 is factory OCed and I might plug in multiple USB devices from time to time, etc. Nice to have a little headroom.


I gave you the data belonging to the Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC, so an hotter model than your.
So my educated guess is that you won't go as high as those values.


joeythebull wrote:
Would the Kingwin 550 generate more case heat than the Corsair 650/750?


At the expected load (around 350W) the Kingwin LZP-550 should generate less heat, as it's more efficient (around 92% vs. 90% for the RM-series): remember, the SuperFlower platform is 80plus Platinum certified, the Corsair units are 80plus Gold, so even under the full load mark it should run cooler.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
Luca, I want to buy the Kingwin, but I'm afraid! lol.

PCpartpicker puts my system a 508w.
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/3daHP

Quote:
I gave you the data belonging to the Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC, so an hotter model than your.


This seems like a very logical assumption, but let's look at power consumption which is really what I want to know before choosing the 550W PSU over the 750W.

I couldn't find a review comparing the Sapphire R9 290 tri-x with the Sapphire R9 290X tri-x, but this review shows a comparison of the Sapphire R9 290X tri-x with an AMD Radeon R9 290X and the AMD is drawing more power than the Sapphire R9 290X tri-x. (409 vs 403)
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphi ... c-review/8

Now consider that my Sapphire R9 290 tri-x draws significantly more power than a stock R9 290X at load (furmark). (413 vs. 350) Sapphire made it quieter and cooler, but they also made it more hungry.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7601/sapp ... oled-290/4

In conclusion, if a Sapphire R9 290X tri-x draws LESS power than a stock R9 290X, and my Sapphire R9 290 tri-x draws MORE power than a stock R9 290X, then your comparison may be flawed.

I plan no OCing or significant hardware upgrades, but I do tend to keep builds a long time. I'd like to get 7+ years out of this one before passing it on to a family member. Do you think the Kingwin can handle it for the long run?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
Luca, I want to buy the Kingwin, but I'm afraid! lol.


I can't help: I can only tell you that SuperFlower platform is currently among the best PSUs available, as lots of serious web reviewers stated (SPCR, JonnyGuru, HardOCP, and many others...).


joeythebull wrote:
PCpartpicker puts my system a 508w.
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/3daHP


I can't help about: I'm pretty sure you're system should be unable to pass the 420-430W mark under any stress-testing, and it should go for less than 340-350W under any of the heaviest not-synthethic load. As I said, it's just a sum, do it by yourself and don't ask the answer to any automatic system.

At any rate, if you mind the Kingwin Lazer Platinum can be overloaded up to 740W before it shuts down.


joeythebull wrote:
In conclusion, if a Sapphire R9 290X tri-x draws LESS power than a stock R9 290X, and my Sapphire R9 290 tri-x draws MORE power than a stock R9 290X, then your comparison may be flawed.


Comparison? I have (made) no comparison: I picked one trusted web reviewer when it comes to graphics (and power consumption), TechPowerUp!, and their recent review of the Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC: that card accounts for about 250W at most while gaming, less than 320W under FurMark, and it's logical that these limits apply also to your card (which should be at least 1W less power hungry, don't you agree?).


joeythebull wrote:
Do you think the Kingwin can handle it for the long run?


Who knows? Shit happens: I can only say that I would buy that PSU, but money are yours, not mine.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Guatemala
The Kingwin LZP-550 should be mroe than enough for it, and its the best PSU out of what you are considering. But if it gives you piece of mind having a 750W PSU, then go for the Corsair RM750, what matters is that you are happy and have no regrets of on buying it, the rest is that it works well, but im sure both PSU will be very good performers.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
Someone tell Luca I bought the Corsair 750 RM. I'm afraid he's going to yell at me.

lol.

Thanks everyone. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
Someone tell Luca I bought the Corsair 750 RM. I'm afraid he's going to yell at me.


Don't worry: rather, I'm just curious to learn if that PSU will ever whine, stressed by a 250W card. :wink:

Let we have your report about.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 am
Posts: 53
quest_for_silence wrote:
joeythebull wrote:
Someone tell Luca I bought the Corsair 750 RM. I'm afraid he's going to yell at me.


Don't worry: rather, I'm just curious to learn if that PSU will ever whine, stressed by a 250W card. :wink:

Let we have your report about.


lol. I'd be the one whining then.

Actually, I will check the serial number for that shutdown problem, but that problem was supposedly corrected with new manufactured PSUs starting in Nov '13.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PSU follow up for my new build...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 2896
Location: ITALY
joeythebull wrote:
Actually, I will check the serial number for that shutdown problem, but that problem was supposedly corrected with new manufactured PSUs starting in Nov '13.


As far as I know, it shouldn't be a real problem, but an issue related to a single, particular stress-testing methodology.
Anyway, hope to will hear soon some news about that rig.

_________________
Regards,
Luca


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group