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 Post subject: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1862
Location: Guatemala
Initially the upgrade to Haswell was planned on my beloved TJ08-E, but i had issues with Asus Maximus VI Gene, mostly in the Realtek 1150 and some stuttering that i wasn't able to fix, no beta driver, bios or other settings fix it. Also had some minor issues with AI SUITE III, so decided to go into full bios fan control, but Asus on ROG haswell motherboards decided to limit to 40% as the minimum PWM fan control, this is unacceptable, my past Sandy Bridge Maximums IV Gene Z had 20%.... i tried to see if Asus would update this on future bios, but there seem no interests from their representatives, ASUS Bios fan control request. Recently, like 6 months ago i did a build for a friend, in which i chose MSI Z77GA43 as the motherboard, i was surprised with the bios fan control, in terms of allowing lower restrictions than asus (0%, 12.5%, 25%, 37.5% > 40%), so decided to go with MSI for rebuilding my PC for haswell, also something very good about MSI is that they do offer two PWM fan headers (CPU_FAN1 and CPU_FAN2) at the begging i though was like Asus that second was only a mirror of the original, but this is not the case, both a re controllable and independently. MSI bios is very good imo, it lacks some things from asus though, like SSD secure erase, but their fan control on pure bios is much better, with min/max % and Temp min/max settings, so i decided to go with full PWM fans, and control them via bios.

Image

Note: Worth mentioning that AsRock offers a much tweakbable bios fan control, multiple breakpoints and temp thresholds, but at the time didn't know, for anyone interested check Quiet gaming setup

Anyway here is what i built for my very quiet haswell build.

CASE: Fractal Design Define R4 Titanium grey
CASE FANS: 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm
PSU: Seasonic X-660 SS-660KM
MOBO: MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING
MEM: Crucial Ballistix Sport Very Low Profile 32GB Kit
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K
CPU Cooler: Thermalright HR-02 (mine is no longer sold original none macho version)
CPU FAN: Thermalright TY-150
GPU: Galaxy GeForce GTX 780
GPU Cooler: ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III
AUDIO: HT OMEGA eCLARO
LAN: Intel Gigabit CT
SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 512GB
HDD: Hitachi 7K1000 1TB
HDD mount:ORICO AC52535-1S -SV 2.5 - inch to 5.25 + NoiseMagic NoVibes 2.5 Silent Hard Drive Mounting System
PWM Fan Splitter: Swiftech 8-Way PWM Cable Splitter - SATA Power (8W-PWM-SPL-ST)
Perifericals: Logitech MX 518 + Logitech G13 + Logitech G710+
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster SA850 27" 5ms PLS WQHD 2560x1440
OS: Windows 7 Professional SP1 64bit

Image

I'm just posting directly one picture re sized, out of no longer seeing in imageshack the thumbnail forum option, if you wish to see more pictures click on the links below

Side
Front Side
Front
Back Side
Back
HR02 + TY150 + Crucial low profile
2.5 hdd suspension

All PWM fans are being controlled by MSI BIOS, on the TY150 its connected to the CPU_FAN1 (on HWmonitor displayed as CPUFANIN) and its settings is 37.5/100% for PWM control and temps 50/80C, for the case fans NF-A14 PWM, all are connected to the Swiftech splitter (placed on the back of the 5.25 cage), noctua supplies a lot of accessories, including extensions so its was very easy to to do, the splitter is then connected to the CPU_FAN2 (on HWmonitor display as SYSFANIN), the noctua fans are very good in their pwm control range, 200-1600rpm, but past 700rpm they become noticeable, so i set them up 12.5/37.5% and temps the same 50/80C, the TY150 is not noticeable inside so i left it reach 100%, but only under prime95 it will reach close. Here is a screenshot of me setting and testing the different PWM fan control settings to see how it will affect the the CPU temperature, the ambient temp was 22C.

Image

If you cant read the above, click here is the original size.

Some other things worth mentioning, i bought most stuff on release, i had such a good experience with Galaxy GTX580 (it came with Accelero Xtreme from factory), so decide not to wait for the custom coolers, but this was a mistake, not that its not quiet, the Accelero III is probably the second best (second to the Prolimatech MK-26) aftermarket cooler probably none of the manufacturers can match its performance / noise ratios, the stock GTX780 has issues with the way it manages PWM fans, the stock is fine, but with Accelero III it control it fine, but it also ramp them up for no reason, like it loses signal and panics and ramps it up to full rpms every 2-10sec, this creates a lot of noise and very uncofortable for quiet oriented PC build, had the luck a friend had MK-26 being dissemble since he was also upgrading, so decided to borrow the fan connector of it and Prolimatech Vertex 140 slim (wonderful fan btw), but was worse, the fan were always at 100%, no control via vbios or software worked (although FanXpert2 was able to control the fine), so this is something directly related to the GTX780 stock PWM design, i even contacted Artic and they acknowlde the issue but said was nvidia fault, and suggested to use the 7V adapter provided with the cooler, which is how i have mine running, very quiet, but i lost the dynamic control of the fans. This two issues are not isolated incidents, if you wish to read more check Arctic Cooling Accelero Extreme III installation on GTX780 and Prolimatech Mk-26 problem with gtx 780. My suggestion is simply go with MSI GTX780 is been reviewed by a lot of sites as the quietest GTX780 on the market, or go with none reference card, maybe the manufacturers did a custom bios for their custom fan/heastink solutions, so the MK-26/Accelero might work, but i still dont recommend doing it this gen, MSI Twin Frozr IV Gaming N780 seems very good (avoid the lightning or hawk editions as their profile of fans is more aggressive since its more oriented for overclockers).

I didn't finish yet the CM, as I'm waiting for the Thermalright HR-22 that should be out by the end of the month, so ill have to take the motherboard out again, ill post an update picture with it mounted. The HR02 will go back to TJ08-E / Asus Maximus IV Gene with a Pentium 3220 for pure fan testing, i still like fanXpert2 for it, just not enough to have it running on my main PC.

Thanks for checking my build, if you have any questions feel free post, ill try to answer them.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


Last edited by Abula on Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4597
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Very pretty.

- What temps are you seeing under heavy cpu+gpu load?
- How do you like your keyboard? Is it truly quiet (as per Logitech) or is it the usual loud mechanical?
- Does the MSI mobo allow you to undervolt the cpu? What method(s) does it use? What's the range?

Also, please resize the one really large image, so we don't have to scroll across the screen to read the text.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:29 am
Posts: 1176
Location: UK
Great build.

CA_Steve wrote:
Also, please resize the one really large image, so we don't have to scroll across the screen to read the text.

If you ignore the irritating ads the online resizer at PicResize.com works well, particularly if best quality is selected.


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1862
Location: Guatemala
CA_Steve wrote:
Very pretty.
Thanks =)

CA_Steve wrote:
- What temps are you seeing under heavy cpu+gpu load?
This is not heavy load as you want but this is what i do most of my days now, playing LOL for 4 hours a day or so,

Image

I havent loaded both together yet, like prime95+furmark, i have done it individually though, the HWmonitors above are on 45m-60min prime95, the following is furmark for about 30min. Honestly the load that both put are way above what any program will give, thus the two together is an almost impossible situation to face, but if you want i could run it.

Image

CA_Steve wrote:
- How do you like your keyboard? Is it truly quiet (as per Logitech) or is it the usual loud mechanical?
I own 2 mechancial keyboards, Filco Majestic Touch and Logitech 710+, and have tested at least 10 more, the logitech is much quieter than my Filco, and any other mechanical keyboard that i have used, but this is not to say its quiet, its quiet for mechanical, but still is loud, the brown switches are decent, but a good membrane keyboard will be more quiet. I just like the experience of typing on mechanical keyboards. There are rubber o ring mods you can do to avoid or minimize the sound of the keys bottoming out, this should also help quieting more, but i haven't bother, the noise of keyboards is not something that i dislike.

CA_Steve wrote:
- Does the MSI mobo allow you to undervolt the cpu? What method(s) does it use? What's the range?
Im sorry i cant be much help here, i dont undervolt since sandy bridge, i feel intel is pretty solid on their voltage management and Haswell downclocks to 800mhz (like sandy bridge). I might in the future depending on temps, but i hate to have an unstable PC.

CA_Steve wrote:
Also, please resize the one really large image, so we don't have to scroll across the screen to read the text.
Sorry, my desktop is 2560x1440 so sized it so it would fit my screen. I re sized it again, both the bottom pictures to fit more 1080 screens, please let me know if you want me to reduce them further.

lodestar wrote:
Great build.

CA_Steve wrote:
Also, please resize the one really large image, so we don't have to scroll across the screen to read the text.

If you ignore the irritating ads the online resizer at PicResize.com works well, particularly if best quality is selected.
Thanks, for the link ill give a try. But usually i just resize them with paint, but my intention was not to resize but to use thumb nails for small pics with links built on them to real size picture, but seems imageshack isn't doing it anymore or i don't know how =(. I do prefer imageshack over other sites though, in terms of not expiring the pictures out of low usage, but will use something else you guys suggest if it does maintain the pics online for long periods and have thumbnails.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Posts: 82
Location: Scandinavia
I think, among several top-tier aftermarket VGA coolers, Alpenföhn Peter (as in my signature), can be an outstanding option. Here is a screenshot of GPU-Z after running MSI kombustor for about 20 minutes (it does not change that much afterwards):

Image

Sound levels produced by two PWM-controlled Noctua NF-S12A fans in real scenarios (rotating at around 400~500 rpm) are virtually inaudible because the above test by MSI kombustor is probaby the harshiest one. The two Noctual fans are directly connected to GTX 660 via Gelid PWM Adaptor.

One of the best parts in Alpenföhn Peter is that its fan mount bracket is separated from the heatsink and fastened to an individual PCI-E slot, which solves the sagging of the graphic card. Secondly, the fans used in even top-tier aftermarket coolers still leave something to be desired, in my opinion. For example, I have found that the fans in Accelero Twin Turbo II and Accelero Xtreme III are slimmer versions of standard (case) fans thereby generating rather unpleasant noise at the same time as being incapable of cooling the graphic card efficiently (to my liking). On top of that, I recently found that they exhibit "directional sensitivity", which means they produce vague rattling sound when the graphic card is facing up which is inevitable in SilverStone TJ08-E (as opposed to your rig in the above figure).

Probably the worst part of Alpenföhn Peter is it occupies 4 slots (5 slots in case of 140mm fans). Thankfully, I did not need to buy Intel Gigabit CT Desktop Adapter because Asrock B85M Pro4 motherboard has an integrated Intel Gigabit Ethernet.

I'm completely satisfied with Alpenföhn Peter. Only that I'm not that much interested in playing games.

PS: My MSI GTX 660 has full control on the two Noctua NF-S12A PWM fans (I modified the stock MSI VGA BIOS without any problem). I think you should have opted for mainstream graphic card manufacturer such as EVGA, MSI, Zotac. Asus must be avoided for aftermarket VGA coolers due to their non-reference PCB designs.

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Main: TJ08-E|NF-S12A; Asrock B85M Pro4; i5-4430|NH-U12S; 16G@1600; MSI GTX660OC|Alpenföhn Peter|2x NF-S12A; Intel 330 180G|335 240G; Corsair RM650; Dell U2713HM; BlasterAXX SBX10; Blu-ray SH-B123L, Family: PC-TU100A|NF-S12A; Asrock H81M-ITX; i3-4130|Big Shuriken 2B; SilverStone ST30SF, HTPC: PC-Q11A|NF-A14; Asrock B75M-DGS; i3-2100; Zotac GT640 Fanless; Seasonic SS-400FL2


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Considering you can rock out LOL with a Pentium and a GTX 650, yeah, it's not much of a load. I guess I was trying to get a feel for your noise and heat generation given your setup...

The resized image is great, thanks!

Undervolting: bear with me - don't want you to undervolt...just want to know if the mobo CAN..and what method/range it uses. It's never listed in the written materials. Buying it and then finding out it can't is a piss poor method of finding out. :)

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Posts: 685
Location: Gefle, Sweden
A detailed build description is always interesting! It's nice to see fan control getting attention from many motherboard makers, and with modern UEFI I really think the settings should be available right there in the "BIOS" as well. I think however that after just having tried ASUS' Fan Xpert 2 on a board first hand that I'm hooked on the possibility of turning most fans off completely when idling at low tempeatures, even if I have certainly had to fiddle with a few oddities/bugs in the software itself.

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i5-3570K at 4 GHz Turbo, HR-02 Macho w/o fan, MSI R9 290 Gaming, Fractal Design Define R4, 2 front fans, 1 exhaust. 2 SSD's and a quiet Seagate 4TB (ST4000DM000) HDD, Seasonic P-460FL (no squealing).


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Posts: 1862
Location: Guatemala
ggumdol wrote:
PS: My MSI GTX 660 has full control on the two Noctua NF-S12A PWM fans (I modified the stock MSI VGA BIOS without any problem). I think you should have opted for mainstream graphic card manufacturer such as EVGA, MSI, Zotac. Asus must be avoided for aftermarket VGA coolers due to their non-reference PCB designs.
Just for reference the NF-S12A are not meant for heatsinks (the NF-F12 or NF-P12 are better choices for heatsinks), the blade design is meant for low restriction slots, they will struggle a lot with high density fan filters and CPU/GPU heatsinks, i own one the only slot that imo are good is for back case fans, but since your cooler is so massive for the mid end gtx660 it really doesn't matter. Prolimatech Vortex 140 slim are imo one of the best to use, for aftermarket GPU cooler, specially since they don't weight as much being slim fans, still they hold their own in static pressure and can be drop down to 460rpm, if the fan connector of the GTX780 would controlled them, i would have bought an MK-26 with those fans, but no luck for me, and the Accelero works great regardless.

CA_Steve wrote:
The resized image is great, thanks!
:)

CA_Steve wrote:
Considering you can rock out LOL with a Pentium and a GTX 650, yeah, it's not much of a load. I guess I was trying to get a feel for your noise and heat generation given your setup...
I'll probably be playing more demanding games over time, maybe BF4 at the ends of the month, but since i played WOW, i have not been much of FPS guy anymore, LOL is really fun for me this days, and takes much of my time. Although i do have plans of buying Elder Scrolls Online and Everquest Next upon release, but still unsure if they will be able to still take people from the monster that WOW is today, i just got bored of 5 years of playing WOW, need something different.

Now going back to the build, the GTX780 + Accelero III wont change no matter what, its binded to 7V adapter powered directly from the PSU, its inaudible for me with the case closed at less than 1 meter. The only thing that dynamically changes is the Case fans and CPU fans, Noctua NF-A14 PWM are very quiet between 200-700rpm, but above that you notice them slightly and above 1000rpm imo is too loud for me. For this reason i limit them, i set them up in the bios to have a minimum of 12.5% PWM = 225rpm, this will be maintain until the CPU reaches 50C (this is the first temp setup on bios), but i also limited its top speed on bios, 37.5% = 650rpm is the maximum the all the case fan will reach (for reaching 80C or above), so the max rpms that the setup will reach on all 4 case fans is 650rpm where its not silent but very very quiet, now remember this comes as cost, this is why i displayed 4 HWmonitor settings with different % of pwm restrictions on the case fans. Here is a more compressed version of the HWmonitor, where you can see the difference into allowing higher rpms on the case fans, the penalty for me for limiting to 650rpm as the max speed, is 4C on highest temp core (all others also similar), its like 1C per each 12.5% less (remember these are prime95 stress tests, no game will reach this kinda stress), for me giving up 4C in CPU temps is a great trade off for ending with ultra quiet setup, but im hopping the HR22 will give me slightly better temps on prime95, will see in on November =)

Image

CA_Steve wrote:
Undervolting: bear with me - don't want you to undervolt...just want to know if the mobo CAN..and what method/range it uses. It's never listed in the written materials. Buying it and then finding out it can't is a piss poor method of finding out. :)
Ok ill find out for you, ill try to post some screenshot of the bios.

mkk wrote:
I think however that after just having tried ASUS' Fan Xpert 2 on a board first hand that I'm hooked on the possibility of turning most fans off completely when idling at low temperatures, even if I have certainly had to fiddle with a few oddities/bugs in the software itself.
I do like a lot FanXpert2, im even keeping my GENE VI for it alone, but mostly for testing fans and for secure erase. AI Suite III is weird in the way it measures CPU temp, its not core temp, nor CPU temp either, according to ASUS JJ its a mix of sensors that they studied and analyzed to be the closest and most real to CPU temp, on paper sounds great, but in reality its not, most of us use the core temps to tweak settings, and here it wouldn't be much of a trouble if it was just a + temp, but its not, it doesnt scale the same, my cores start reaching 60C but AI Suite temp is still on 44C, its behavior its not linear either, so i cant define something to adapt to it, so for me the way asus measures temps simply doesn't work me, some say if you use another software to measure temps parallel to Asus it will skew its reading, but i tested with and without on prime95 and same results as max temps.

On MSI its different no need for software (although they do have one, Command Center, but no where near as good as FanXpert2), as long as you chose the fan carefully and that they are PWM, the good thing is that if you see the MSI bios screenshot on the first post, you will see the setup i did for the CPU_FAN1 = CPUFANIN = TY150, i usually idle at 30C, where the fan was left at 37.5% = 540rpm (this is very close to it minimum tested with FanXpert2), the fan will work with 0% pwm, but the problem is the fan has like a deadzone between 0-35% (you can see that on the before link), so why does it matter??? because i want the fan to gradually start ramping once 50C is reached on the CPU, if i set it on deadzone it has % that it will not ramp up, as the graph on the bios is linear, so 37.5% works wonderful for the TY150. Now this fan is the one that has the most impact on the CPU temp, much more than the case fans, so i let the roam freely and didnt limit its maximum RPMs (according to link before around 1093rpm), and honestly its not that bad being inside the case either, now the important thing here is setting up the second temp, i chose 80C as the max where my fan should reach the top PWM % allowed, in this case 100%, and if you see the HWMonitor pics above, it start to get closer, why i like this so much, because contrary to Asus FanXpert2, the setting on the BIOS react directly to how HWmonitor measures the temps of the cores, on 78C on the max core, the TY150 is at 1067rpm which is close to the 100% rating.

Either way, im still recommending FanXpert2 and Asus motherboards, its by far the best software besed fan control that i have tried, and for someone that doesn't mind the way asus measures temps and uses that temp to ramp the fans, its fine, but i prefer the way coretemp/hwmonitor/hwinfo measure temps and i like more that my fan settings react to what they measure. But FanXpert2 is much easier to use and setup, i have done mulitple test to set up the bios the way i liked it, i even tested my fans before on fanXpert2 to know their range of operation and if they had deadzones. As long as the user knows how FanXpert2 works into using PWM fans on CPU_FAN header and 3pin fans on CHA_FAN headers, it will work wonderful, and this is the main reason i still recommend it, i just wished Asus would consider doing it a stand alone in the future releases, there is no need to have AI Suite III.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Location: Guatemala
CA_Steve wrote:
Undervolting: bear with me - don't want you to undervolt...just want to know if the mobo CAN..and what method/range it uses. It's never listed in the written materials. Buying it and then finding out it can't is a piss poor method of finding out. :)
The CPU Core Voltage can be set between 0.800 to 1.300 in increments of 0.001 just by using + or - or pressing the numbers. Ill leave you some screenshots, and a video that might give you a better idea, Intel Haswell i5-4670k "Sweet Spot" 4.6GHZ Overclock @ MSI Z87-G45 (1.22v) and more general BIOS video MSI Z87-GD65 Gaming Motherboard Click BIOS 4 Guide and Overview

Image

Image

Image

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Location: UK
Abula wrote:
...the fan will work with 0% pwm, but the problem is the fan has like a deadzone between 0-35% (you can see that on the before link), so why does it matter??? because i want the fan to gradually start ramping once 50C is reached on the CPU, if i set it on deadzone it has % that it will not ramp up, as the graph on the bios is linear, so 37.5% works wonderful for the TY150...

This is the issue of PWM fan profiles. The TY150 is one of those where even a PWM duty setting of 0% results in the fan running at a minimum speed of around 500 rpm. This is done partly to avoid the fan stopping if 0% duty cycle is selected, but also to create a stable fan speed at idle and low system stress levels. Thermalright do not publish a fan profile for the TY150. There is a 140mm PWM fan made by Zaward. Zaward do produce fan profiles and this is the one for the ZG2-140B 140mm PWM which illustrates how fan speed is held more or less constant at the lower range of PWM duty cycle settings, or the 'deadzone' :

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Location: Guatemala
Small update, the HR22 arrived and to my missfortune its not worth it over the Macho, its weight much more and there is really no gains on load, although there are gains on idle, still not worth its premium price tag nor the weight it introduces. Either way looks much better, but i dont build for that, ill leave you a couple of pics,

Image

Image

With everything the same as the initial build, the only change is the HR02 for HR22, same paste, same stock clocks, same fans and settings. The below pic is the PC ran on the morning with HR02 on Prime95 Blend test for about 30mins (until the 800,000/8000 test finishes), the same was repeated in the afternoon with the HR22.

Image

Tempted to try out the Prolimatech Genesis + 4x Prolimatech vertex 140 slim pwm fans, but will see, im not 100% sure it will allow the use of the 1st pcie slot, while the HR02 and HR22 do.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:40 am 
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That's a great build. As commented on in another thread, the issue to me seems to be that the heatpipes on the HR-22 are concentrated in the middle section of the cooler and I am not convinced that 140mm/150mm fans are the right way to go. The Noctua NF-F12's Focused Flow feature which concentrates airflow in something more like a beam of air could well produce better results with this cooler despite only being a 120mm fan. It would probably be quieter at idle and the concentration of airflow it produces may well be a better match for the depth of the HR-22.


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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:54 pm 
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lodestar wrote:
That's a great build. As commented on in another thread, the issue to me seems to be that the heatpipes on the HR-22 are concentrated in the middle section of the cooler and I am not convinced that 140mm/150mm fans are the right way to go. The Noctua NF-F12's Focused Flow feature which concentrates airflow in something more like a beam of air could well produce better results with this cooler despite only being a 120mm fan. It would probably be quieter at idle and the concentration of airflow it produces may well be a better match for the depth of the HR-22.
Thanks for the recommendation lodestar, i think you might be right, on my HR02 + Noiseblocker PLPS 120mm had very good temps on TJ08-E build. That said i would give a shot, if it didn't meant to take out the HR22, the right mounting clip cant be mounted with the motherboard coolers, so mounting 120mm clips would mean full disassemble, but ill crosscheck it again, the HR22 had some different fan mounts that didn't need to be inserted from the bottom, will see if that would match 120mm fan.

I was temped by another cooler before i knew the HR22 existed, if i didn't rushed the HR22 and waited for the SPCR review i would have avoid it, the Prolimatech Genesis. Seeing that even if the HR22 is wider and thicker, much more area of dissipation, more pipes, etc, and even with all this barely beat the HR02. I agree with SPCR in terms of reaching diminishing returns on this characteristics on coolers, the more area is not doing much, so less area dissipation and more fans seem to have better results, thus why the most of the twin tower are among the best temperature heatsinks all around. With that said, the Genesis is a very interesting cooler, from the day that SPCR released the review i had my eyes on it, i was a little skeptic at the time seeing how the heatinks are kinda slim, but now that the HR22 has proven that this might not be a bad thing. The genesis is still the king of dual fan setup on most of the SPCR reviews, and im a little intrigue with the Prolimatech Vortex 140mm slim PWM, i could fit 4 of those fans on it, specially with my memory being very low profile, the only thing that has steer me away from it is that its 146mm width, while the HR02 is 140, and the HR22 is 150 (but the same as the HR02 because of its asymmetrical position of the CPU block), both the HR22 and HR02 are extremely close to the first PCIe slot, the and Genesis will need another 3mm, weather it clears it or not im not 100% sure, this was the only reason I didn't go for it, but still thinking on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:01 am 
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I was never really satisfied with the HR22, on load there is virtually no gain over the HR02, where it does perform better is at very low rpms or almost passive, but the 4770K is not a CPU that can be handle like that, so i waited for a new CPU cooler, i always been interested by Silver Arrow, now that thermalright released their new flagship with the IBE version with the asymetrical design toward the first PCIe slot, decided to go for it. But i personally find the the performance of the thermalright fans good, but the control to be too high for my likings on idle, so decided to get some Noctua NF-A15 PWM, so here is a sneak peak of the cooler.

Image

Image

Sadly i dont have the time to mount this week, maybe next weekend ill have some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:20 am 
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You are going to be SO annoyed :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:11 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
You are going to be SO annoyed :)
No doubt a very nice cooler, probably will become SPCR favorite to recommend because of its price and performance. But im going to be mad if a single fan cooler can outperform a triple fan dual rad silver arrow, but will see.

I do have my hopes that Thermalright gives some samples to SPCR to test, like the silver arrow and the new spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Finally had some time to intall the Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM. As the with the HR22, even though they are very wide coolers, they are asymetrical and this makes it not take the 1st PCIe slot (see pic below).

Image

If you go for low profile ram, like crucial ballistik sport, you will no trouble clearing the fans,

Image

Image

Here is a pic powered on,

Image

On the plus side, its slightly better than HR22 but not by much considering its running 3x 140mm fan vs 1x 150mm, on the bad side, the NF-A15 PWM have an annoying droning sound at 1200rpms, but luckily the only thing that takes it there is prime95, no game, not even editing/encoding takes it that high, below 1000rpms i cant hear them at 1mt. I leave you the test i did on both coolers, the HR22 test is on ambient temp of 24.2C and the Silver Arrow IBE with 26.2, giving a delta gain in temperature of 4C.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:19 pm 
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That's certainly a big honkin cooler. Do you see any sag?

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:09 am 
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Abula wrote:
But im going to be mad if a single fan cooler can outperform a triple fan dual rad silver arrow, but will see.


Hmmm... have you ordered a Kotetsu?

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:33 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
That's certainly a big honkin cooler. Do you see any sag?
I didn't look that much but didn't see any sagging, then again the HR22 weighted more.

quest_for_silence wrote:
Abula wrote:
But im going to be mad if a single fan cooler can outperform a triple fan dual rad silver arrow, but will see.


Hmmm... have you ordered a Kotetsu?
No, i might for another build, but im not changing cpu coolers on this build, the middle screw is very hard to get when installing the motherboard, so the only way im taking it out is for Haswell E. I guess ill have to live with the doubt if Kotetsu can beat the triple fan Silver Arrow IBE.

The only change that comes is that i ordered the ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV High-End Graphics Card Cooler with Backside Cooler for Efficient RAM and VRM-Cooling DCACO-V800001-GBA01, i want to see if with this new version i can control the fans with the MSI afterburner. Ill run some tests on the Asus Maximus VI Gene with FanXpert2 on both coolers (III and IV), on both PWM fan headers (CPU_FAN) and voltage controlled headers (CHA_FAN), and ill post if there is a difference.

There is a other things that ill be doing the next couple of weeks, installing the HR22 on the HTPC with NF-S12A PWM, and the MSI GTX750Ti Twin Frozr, but i also ordered the ARCTIC Accelero S1 Plus VGA Cooler - nVidia & AMD, Silent Passive Cooling, SLI/CrossFire, will also test the Twin Frozr fans on the FanXpert2, to see if the minimum they can reach is the 30% we all seen as the restriction on the card bios. And specially i want to see if the Maxwell cards have the same issue as Kepler with the PWM design into controlling standard PWM fans, ill give a shot once i install the S1 + NF-S12A PWM.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:12 am 
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Thanks for being the guinea pig! The one major thing I like about the new Extreme IV is no more crappy stick on heatsinks.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:58 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Thanks for being the guinea pig! The one major thing I like about the new Extreme IV is no more crappy stick on heatsinks.
:)

The problem with the IV is that with the back heatsink it will take another PCIe slot, so it becomes a 4 slot solution and not viable for high end mobos that come with the 16x PCIe on the first slot with a very wide cooler. Micro ATX mobos might also struggle with the back heatsink with the memory slots, and so on, while i like it, i think they should have left it optional and kept the small heatsink as well, personally i think it wont be as good in terms of vrm and memory, but mine is already installed so ill have an hybrid of the III/IV.

Sadly amazon is now charging taxes to florida..... so now im ordering all parts from other vendors, that will take a lot more time, maybe in two weeks ill have the stuff, i think ill be building ends of may, beginning of june. In the mean time i might start the camara station build, that its from parts that i already had, like Nofan95, the msi H81 mobo, a wd 3tb red, lian li q11 (or maybe the q08 and swaping cases), this is the build that im more interested atm, as i do need it for the cameras to be manage, record and warn.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Finally i finished... damn this Accelero IV is pretty uber, very well design specially for GTX780, but so many things you need to do..... took me half day to install it, the rest of the day i spent changing PSU and redoing all the cables.

Also upgraded the PSU, found the Seasonic SS-860XP2 on sale on amazon at $161.50, been tracking it for almost a year now for my server, but since it lower decided to get two, in preparation for twin gpus and 4k monitor. I can safely say the SS-860XP2 is as quiet as my X400 and X660, no coil, whining, or electric noise that i can hear, so ill continue to recommend Seasonic.

The Accelero IV is pretty nice, seems like they design it oriented to the GTX780, as the instructions have GTX780 on the all of it, making it really easy to follow, although very time consuming, there is so many new things that werent present on the Accelero III, like the back heatsink, that requires installation of thermal pads and isolating film, this film you have to cut it to match the pads you placed so the heatsink draws heat from it, weather its effective idk, but certainly looks intimidating. You also need to install clips to hold the heatisink to the gpu, there is also a PCI arm to hold the monster, as it weights a lot more than the Accelero III. I can also say that they fixed the issue with the PWM design and GTX780, i made a huge complaint to the CM of Artic, but seems they did listen and fixed it.

I leave you some pics of the Accelero IV installed on my GTX780,

Image

Here is the problem that was present on the Accelero III, saidly i didnt save the GPUZ but the MSI afterburner, and right next to it is the GPUZ of the new Accelero IV, where you can see its steady the RPMS.

Image

Also did some testing on FanXpert2 with both the Accelero III and IV to see if there was a difference, and from what i can see its different,

Image

Image

I also had a Tachimiter that i bought for some testing of fans, and did test it for anyone wondering whats the RPMs using the 7V and 12V adapter that comes with the acceleros, and since i had the Gene running, also tested the acceleros on voltage control,

Image

Image

Image

The accelero IV is a 4 slot solition now with the back heatsink, it takes 3 on the front and at least one on the back (maybe slightly more), the MSI Z87GD65 has a PCIe 1x between the 16x and the CPU, this is taken fully by the cooler and ends up at mm of the Silver Arrow IBE

Image

Finally i leave you a pic of the build complete, withe Accelero IV with the holding armed installed, Silver Arrow IBE and Seasonic SS860XP2

Image

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:38 am 
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That's a hunk of hardware. How do you like the fan noise at idle/gaming?

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:39 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
That's a hunk of hardware. How do you like the fan noise at idle/gaming?
I manage to do some light gaming yesterday on LOL, but the game even at 2560x1440 all at very high + AA doesnt even push the card enough to move the clocks to Extra, and even underlcock the GTX780 bearly reaches 40% utilization, so there is no really good way to see how it handles. Temps on the GPU never exceded 42C and the rpms of the fans reached 1228rpms, where its still inaudible.

In theory Wildstar starts this weekend, so i might get a better load on it, but none of the games i play atm will stress the card to where it might matter the cooler. i'll post some temp when i get more time to really do some gaming.... kinda still on other projects.... i have to re do the storage server, and i have all things now, just need some time to assemble it and to move all the hdds to the new setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:56 am 
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Abula wrote:
and the rpms of the fans reached 1228rpms, where its still inaudible.


3 fans running at 1.2krpm and they are not audible?

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:51 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Abula wrote:
and the rpms of the fans reached 1228rpms, where its still inaudible.


3 fans running at 1.2krpm and they are not audible?
Hard to believe that those rpms is inaudible, specially since i recently compared a Noctua NF-S12A PWM at 900rpm being much louder than stock fans on the GTX750Ti Twin Frozr, but it really is, at least to me, its very similar case to the MSI GPU, even though the fans are spinning higher they are also smaller and slimmer so they produce less noise, or maybe my hearing isnt as good or my ambient noise overwhelms my setup, but i personally cant hear it at 2mts.

But im going to quote a review from SPCR Arctic Cooling Accelero Xtreme Plus GPU Cooler where it got the editors chioce, so you get a better picture not only from my side. In the review they test a similar cooler that has evolved some but the basics of the cooler remains very similar, like the fans and heatsink. On page 5 you can see the following table,

Image

If you see my testing, a couple of posts above, you will see that using the tachometer and using the 7V supplied adapter you get aprox of 1200rpms on both Acceleros, in which should be the same noise levels as what SPCR found on that table, and in that same page comments,
Quote:
The Accelero Xtreme's fans were fairly quiet below 9V, and effectively inaudible at 5V in our two fan VGA test system. The fans sound remarkably smooth and soft, though it develops a small degree of whine above 9V and turbulence about 10V. At 8V and below, the acoustic profile is completely benign and innocuous.

And from the conclusions,
Quote:
The fans are acoustically sound and can be controlled via software if plugged into the graphics card's fan header, a rarity for a GPU heatsink. If you prefer to power them externally, it also ships with a 7V/12V molex adapter. For a HD 5870, using the 7V connector is perfectly fine — it's very quiet at that level and having the fan spin faster is overkill.

I can tell you around 1200rpms i cant hear the cooler inside my case with my ambient noise, but i even stayed very late (around 2am) where no one is wake up, no car sounds etc, to catch if the Seasonic had some coil whining or electric noise, and i still couldn't hear anything from the PSU or the accelero. I do think the Accelero at 12V 2k rpms is extremely loud, but 7V or 1200rpm is pretty good, at least for my ears and my setup, but again totally subjective findings, its all about each persons standards.

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:59 am 
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Small update, i needed a quad for camera server that i'm running as the Pentium G3220 was to low for handling 7x 1080p cameras at 15fps, the correct choice would have been to go with Intel Core i7-4770S as its going to be ran on Nofan95, but you can underclock on bios or on windows, so decided to give a shot to Intel Core i7-4790K and move the 4770K to the camera server (ill post the build later). Devils canon is for sure faster marginally, running all cores at 4.4ghz it goes up to 93C under prime95. So turn it down to 4.2ghz and its back to the temps of the 4770K, until FT05 ill keep it like this, the CPU is wonderful, just as the 4770K the 4790K, needs a lot of cooling going above 4.3ghz /1.2V, i might try to tweak the voltage later on, but not a big deal either as no games not even rendering will stress it like prime95.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:16 am 
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So, what are the temps if you run it like a stock i7-4770/ at similar OC? Is it noticably cooler?

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 Post subject: Re: Fractal Design Define R4 build
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:51 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
So, what are the temps if you run it like a stock i7-4770/ at similar OC? Is it noticably cooler?
I dont think its cooler or at least much cooler, i do see a little lower temps on idle but not by much. I yet to run the same clocks, i stoped yesterday when i was getting undercontrol at 4.2ghz, but i did bump my fans like 150rpms on bios, so i would say they are very similar overall in temps under same clocks and voltages, at least in my experience, but i might do more testing later on when i finish the camera server that im working atm and the real server that was finished last week just haven't had the time and good light to take pictures.

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