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 Post subject: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advise
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:23 am 
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Hi,

I've just built a PC for silent gaming, with Arctic F12 fans, Arctic Accelero Turbo ii GPU cooler, and at idle the PC is silent.

Unfortunately, the Corsair TX550m (2016) Gold PSU I bought sounds like a jet engine after gaming for 10 minutes, despite the rest of the fans running cool and quiet. I thought a Gold PSU would not be too loud, but I was wrong.

I can't however seem to find fan specs for the PSU, and don't know if I should bother changing the fan (or adding a fan and powering from Molex) or buy a new PSU. It's only 2 weeks old.

Please advise on the best approach and any advice on good replacement fans would be much appreciated.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:16 am 
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Welcome to SPCR.

It's not the quietest PSU out there, but it shouldn't sound like a jet engine. Here's a graph of fan rpm vs load @ TweakPC. It's either defective, running in the upper end of the load range, or the rest of your components are really quiet. :) I'd suggest returning it and getting a different PSU. The Corsair RMx series is a few bucks more and much better for fan noise. There's also the be quiet! Straight Power 10 and Seasonic Focus Plus.

- What country are you in?
- What's the rest of the build so I can get a estimate for load power to dial in the best PSU?

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:55 am 
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According to Cybenetics database, the TX series isn't quiet even at low loads. Open the PDF files to see the details: https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?op ... 28&volts=1


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:15 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Welcome to SPCR.

It's not the quietest PSU out there, but it shouldn't sound like a jet engine. Here's a graph of fan rpm vs load @ TweakPC. It's either defective, running in the upper end of the load range, or the rest of your components are really quiet. :) I'd suggest returning it and getting a different PSU. The Corsair RMx series is a few bucks more and much better for fan noise. There's also the be quiet! Straight Power 10 and Seasonic Focus Plus.

- What country are you in?
- What's the rest of the build so I can get a estimate for load power to dial in the best PSU?


Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I'm in the UK. Long post incoming!

Maybe a jet engine is an exaggeration ;) Basically the fan runs at full speed after about 10 minutes of gaming. It sounds about as loud as a blower GPU cooler on 60% fan, so a distracting whooshing noise that can be heard through headphones when gaming (if the vol is not too loud). I wanted a pc as quiet and small as I could get without spending crazy money.

I have a mildly overclocked 6700k with a Noctua NH9DL (almost silent), a mildly overclocked asus turbo gtx 1080 with an arctic accelero twin turbo ii (almost silent at 70c) in a Cougar QBX mini itx case, with a front intake 80mm Arctic F80 PWM, an Arctic F9 PWM exhaust, a top Arctic F12 PWM exhaust, and a silverstone slim 120mm top exhaust above the PSU. I know the fans are budget, but they really are quiet at moderate speeds compared to the PSU, but really loud at high RPMs (is it worth investing in quieter fans e.g. slipstreams or noctuas?).

This configuration pulls about 290 watts from the wall on full load with a plug in wattmeter, so I could get away with a 400w psu probably? - I had this config in an alienware x51 with a 330w psu and it was ok.

I've also tried adding one and two side 120mm intake fans (Arctic F12s) but they don't seem to make much difference.

What I'm wondering is if the open GPU cooler is dumping a lot of heat into the case, and this is making the PSU hotter than it needs to be, and the PSU fan is maxing out in response? That said, the air flow coming out of the PSU is not super hot like the GPU is. But reviews I've read of the PSU say its fan profile is very crude and it ramps up to max quite easily, I don't believe the stock Corsair fan graphs are true.

I originally tried putting in a Kraken G10 with an Antec Kuhler 620 AIO, but the pump noise was annoying even at idle, so I put in the Arctic Accelero, which was much quieter. My problem now is the PSU is as loud as the Asus turbo blower cooler I was trying to replace. Unfortunately, I didn't test the PC at load with the new PSU until after I had removed the GPU blower, so I don't know if the PSU fan speed is as a result of general load, or due to extra hot air dumped into the case from the open GPU fan.

I was thinking about getting a fanless Seasonic 400 or 460 (I think even the 400 is enough for my setup) which although mounted upright, would have a 120mm fan blowing directly into the casing.

I think my config options are:

1) Go back to blower GPU cooler and see if that lowers case temps enough so that the PSU is cooler and the fan stays quieter (and/or get a quieter PSU).
2) Keep the arctic accelero turbo ii and get a quieter PSU (perhaps fanless).
3) Go back to the kraken G10 and see if that lowers case temps enough so that the PSU is cooler and the fan stays quieter (and/or get a quieter PSU but not a fanless due to the location of the AIO).

For maximum performance and quietness I'm leaning towards 2).

I need a modular PSU 140mm deep or less (I prefer ATX to SFX) I use pricespy.co.uk so search for kit, which allows me to specifcy a max PSU depth. Which means a corsair, a seasonic, or a couple of others. Any ideas? :)

A final question if I may, should I put a fan above the PSU outtake to help airflow (assuming a fanned PSU) or will this disrupt the natural convection and the flow from the PSU fan?

Thanks a lot for any assistance as I've been struggling with the options and compexities for some time! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 am 
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It's hard for me to tell from the stock photos and case reviews...is the PSU really just stuck in the middle of the case or is the intake fan against the mesh side? If it's the former....wow, what a horrible design.

With the current setup, what temps are you seeing at load for case ambient (mobo temp sensor is fine), CPU and GPU?

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:51 am 
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Also,

You might try taking the PSU out of the case and re-running your load tests. See if the same fan profile appears with colder ambient air instead of your hot box. More ammo to claim as defective for the RMA.

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:36 am 
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Location: Scotland, UK
I can vouch for my EVGA G2 850w if that helps?

Also I am in the Fife/Edinburgh area and I am not using my old Coolermaster Silent Pro M 600w. It doesn't have a passive mode, but is pretty quiet.

If they offer you a replacement have a look at the EVGA G3 550w its pretty compact.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:27 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
It's hard for me to tell from the stock photos and case reviews...is the PSU really just stuck in the middle of the case or is the intake fan against the mesh side? If it's the former....wow, what a horrible design.

With the current setup, what temps are you seeing at load for case ambient (mobo temp sensor is fine), CPU and GPU?


Hi,

No the PSU is against the mesh side panel, it has a lot of room to breathe and exhausts out of the top vent, so I don't think that airflow is the issue. The case is really nice for the price though.

Looking at an earlier link that was posted on cybenetics, the TX550m appears to be one of the loudest new Corsair PSUs on test. I think the issue is that the temp control is crude, and the GPU puts a lot of hot air into the case which is well vented but doesn't have great directional airflow. The hotbox and the loud fan, and crude fan control make the PSU spin up to full speed. I'm 90% sure it is not faulty, just not very sophisticated. I've got all my ram sinks glued on, so can't really test with the old GPU blower cooler.

I think I will put the kraken g10 back in on exhaust mode, and stress test. This will dump hot air outside the case. If the PSU goes into jet mode I will know it is a PSU load issue (i.e. crap PSU), if it doesn't I will know it is a temp/airflow issue.

I will test this weekend. I have been looking at PSUs and am considering a Seasonic SSR-550PX. It will be much quieter than my Corsair even in hotbox....

It's a shame I'm limited by the 140mm psu depth or I would get an RM550.

Sound like a plan?

thanks a lot guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Be sure to measure the load temps with the existing setup before you try a different config (like the Kraken)...and then, measure those, too. You have a number of possible configurations and you'll want to track more than "it sounds louder" in order to make incremental changes that help.

Seasonic Focus Plus: In an ideal ambient temp environment, the Focus Plus fan in hybrid mode is supposed to be off up to 30% load, low rpm (~600rpm) up to 50% load and then ramp from there. It'll also be a thermally controlled fan, so higher ambient temps means the fan will ramp sooner. An option might be the 650W over the 550W.

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
I will test this weekend. I have been looking at PSUs and am considering a Seasonic SSR-550PX.
What a coincidence. I just picked up this exact model today from my post office, but I'm still waiting for 3 final parts to arrive before I can finish my first PC that I'll be building myself. Hopefully it'll be completed by next week so I can let you know how it goes. My current Seasonic G-450 model in the desktop that I'm using is silent and its fan doesn't have any fancy hybrid modes, but it's located on the floor in a corner between my desktop and room wall, so I can't hear it regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:33 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Be sure to measure the load temps with the existing setup before you try a different config (like the Kraken)...and then, measure those, too. You have a number of possible configurations and you'll want to track more than "it sounds louder" in order to make incremental changes that help.

Seasonic Focus Plus: In an ideal ambient temp environment, the Focus Plus fan in hybrid mode is supposed to be off up to 30% load, low rpm (~600rpm) up to 50% load and then ramp from there. It'll also be a thermally controlled fan, so higher ambient temps means the fan will ramp sooner. An option might be the 650W over the 550W.


Thanks both, that's a good tip.

By the way, I gamed for a couple of hours last night with OCCT reporting my stats and the CPU was stable at about 65C, the GPU at 71C, Motherboard around 65, Northbridge at 68, Ram at 70. All of which I think could be a little lower, but fine for a mITX case I believe?

The Seasonic has got some great reviews, and seems pretty quiet from reviews. I'd like the 650 but the price is too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:57 am 
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The CPU and GPU temps are fine...The mobo/ram/NB temps tell you it's quite the hot box. In a well ventilated case, you should see mobo temps in the 30's.

It'll be interesting to see how well the case temps drop with the Kraken.

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:48 pm 
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yakuman wrote:
Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
I will test this weekend. I have been looking at PSUs and am considering a Seasonic SSR-550PX.
What a coincidence. I just picked up this exact model today from my post office, but I'm still waiting for 3 final parts to arrive before I can finish my first PC that I'll be building myself. Hopefully it'll be completed by next week so I can let you know how it goes.
...I was curious to see how the fan sounds by connecting it to my motherboard before assembling everything, but the PSU fan won't spin up at all! I tested both with the hybrid button on and off. At least my motherboard lights up, but this is disconcerting. Not sure if I should be worried or missing something?

Update:
The good news is my SSR-550PX's fan does work after passing the paper clip test (https://seasonic.com/faq/ --> Power Supply Jump Start Guide). Until I receive and install my final components I can't confirm my motherboard is working, but it's a good sign because of its breathing LED. The bad news is the PSU fan has an ugly ticking tone when in non-hybrid mode. It's lower pitched compared to case fans like Fractal Design's; more in the mid frequency. But this is only audible within 2 feet. As far as noise levels, it's pretty quiet. At >= 27 inches from the fan directly pointing to my ears it's inaudible. Luckily for me, mine will be tucked inside a Fractal Define C on the floor with its fan facing the carpet and more than 1 m away from my ears.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:24 am 
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yakuman wrote:
yakuman wrote:
Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
I will test this weekend. I have been looking at PSUs and am considering a Seasonic SSR-550PX.
What a coincidence. I just picked up this exact model today from my post office, but I'm still waiting for 3 final parts to arrive before I can finish my first PC that I'll be building myself. Hopefully it'll be completed by next week so I can let you know how it goes.
...I was curious to see how the fan sounds by connecting it to my motherboard before assembling everything, but the PSU fan won't spin up at all! I tested both with the hybrid button on and off. At least my motherboard lights up, but this is disconcerting. Not sure if I should be worried or missing something?

Update:
The good news is my SSR-550PX's fan does work after passing the paper clip test (https://seasonic.com/faq/ --> Power Supply Jump Start Guide). Until I receive and install my final components I can't confirm my motherboard is working, but it's a good sign because of its breathing LED. The bad news is the PSU fan has an ugly ticking tone when in non-hybrid mode. It's lower pitched compared to case fans like Fractal Design's; more in the mid frequency. But this is only audible within 2 feet. As far as noise levels, it's pretty quiet. At >= 27 inches from the fan directly pointing to my ears it's inaudible. Luckily for me, mine will be tucked inside a Fractal Define C on the floor with its fan facing the carpet and more than 1 m away from my ears.


Ok, I've added the side intake fan which blows down over the CPU area and motherboard and northbridge temps are now around 46 degrees during gaming, peaking at 50, so much healthier.

I've also taken the plunge and splashed out on a SSR-650PX and all Noctua Redux case fans! I thought that despite the causes, I know the PSU runs loud anyway, despite the GPU maybe causing increased temps or not - which I'm less worried about with the case temps with side intake now (weirdly the GPU temps have increased 5 degrees since I put the side fan in - possible disrupting it's convection).

Anyway, I will sell the Corsair, and I thought with the 650PX - go big or go home. I've had PSU regret before, and my thinking is with the 650, the load on it will be low, and with the hybrid fan, it may not even need to turn on at all, or run at low speed <300w average loads.

Shame to hear that there is ticking from the SSR-500PX though, is that when Hybrid mode is off though? As I'm hopinh with Hybrid mode on, there should be sweet silence (plus the Noctuas!).

Once i change PSU, I can then select the quietest and coolest GPU option....

edit: I got a reply for Corsair support who said it sounded like normal behaviour and my system was putting max load on the PSU so fan was spinning up, so just as I though.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:02 am 
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Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
Anyway, I will sell the Corsair, and I thought with the 650PX - go big or go home. I've had PSU regret before, and my thinking is with the 650, the load on it will be low, and with the hybrid fan, it may not even need to turn on at all, or run at low speed <300w average loads.
I had the same thought of "go big or go home" for my motherboard (overkill), but what the hey. It's my very first PC that I'm building rather than having some other people build it. Although when it comes to PSUs I tend to select the lowest wattage because I understand my average time on the PC leans more towards idleness than load; lower wattage = higher efficiency = slightly lower temperatures. And they're usually cheaper than higher wattage PSUs too.

Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
Shame to hear that there is ticking from the SSR-500PX though, is that when Hybrid mode is off though? As I'm hopinh with Hybrid mode on, there should be sweet silence (plus the Noctuas!).
Yes. That is in normal mode with the fan spinning at its lowest RPMs. I tested it out of curiosity about the fan accoustics and for your info. With the hybrid mode on the fan does stop and there's no coil whine, but I haven't connected it to the other components to confirm it'll remain the same.

Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
edit: I got a reply for Corsair support who said it sounded like normal behaviour and my system was putting max load on the PSU so fan was spinning up, so just as I though.
I suspected so. Initially the TX model did attract my attention, but I knew the answer was no after reading other non-English reviews about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:54 am 
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yakuman wrote:
Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
Anyway, I will sell the Corsair, and I thought with the 650PX - go big or go home. I've had PSU regret before, and my thinking is with the 650, the load on it will be low, and with the hybrid fan, it may not even need to turn on at all, or run at low speed <300w average loads.
I had the same thought of "go big or go home" for my motherboard (overkill), but what the hey. It's my very first PC that I'm building rather than having some other people build it. Although when it comes to PSUs I tend to select the lowest wattage because I understand my average time on the PC leans more towards idleness than load; lower wattage = higher efficiency = slightly lower temperatures. And they're usually cheaper than higher wattage PSUs too.

Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
Shame to hear that there is ticking from the SSR-500PX though, is that when Hybrid mode is off though? As I'm hopinh with Hybrid mode on, there should be sweet silence (plus the Noctuas!).
Yes. That is in normal mode with the fan spinning at its lowest RPMs. I tested it out of curiosity about the fan accoustics and for your info. With the hybrid mode on the fan does stop and there's no coil whine, but I haven't connected it to the other components to confirm it'll remain the same.

Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
edit: I got a reply for Corsair support who said it sounded like normal behaviour and my system was putting max load on the PSU so fan was spinning up, so just as I though.
I suspected so. Initially the TX model did attract my attention, but I knew the answer was no after reading other non-English reviews about it.


Thanks for the reply and good luck with the build. I don't know how many I've built over the years 7 or 8 probably, it's a lot of fun. I don't really know if larger or smaller PSUs are more efficient, but my thinking was a larger PSU for the same draw would see the PSU being under less load relative to it's maximum possible output, and therefore under less.... "strain" and therefore less heat and quieter. Put it this way, a 300 watts from a 400 watt PSU would be closer to its maximum output than 300 watts from a 1200 watt, PSU, which I imagine would hardly notice the load and stay super cool and quiet. That was my thinking anyway, I don't have any evidence to back that up!!! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:33 am 
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There's that side too. It always depends total system power usage. It's difficult to track due to it constantly fluctuating, but on average I assume most users spend more time idling than loading. On load the closer to the 50% point of the PSU wattage, of course the more efficient. 550W vs 650W isn't that much of a difference anyway, but it's more useful in the future if you end up upgrading to more power-hungry GPUs. From a silence perspective, yes the 650W would be better due to fan curve, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:32 pm 
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yakuman wrote:
yakuman wrote:
Mrcellophane1978 wrote:
I will test this weekend. I have been looking at PSUs and am considering a Seasonic SSR-550PX.
What a coincidence. I just picked up this exact model today from my post office, but I'm still waiting for 3 final parts to arrive before I can finish my first PC that I'll be building myself. Hopefully it'll be completed by next week so I can let you know how it goes.
...I was curious to see how the fan sounds by connecting it to my motherboard before assembling everything, but the PSU fan won't spin up at all! I tested both with the hybrid button on and off. At least my motherboard lights up, but this is disconcerting. Not sure if I should be worried or missing something?

Update:
The good news is my SSR-550PX's fan does work after passing the paper clip test (https://seasonic.com/faq/ --> Power Supply Jump Start Guide). Until I receive and install my final components I can't confirm my motherboard is working, but it's a good sign because of its breathing LED. The bad news is the PSU fan has an ugly ticking tone when in non-hybrid mode. It's lower pitched compared to case fans like Fractal Design's; more in the mid frequency. But this is only audible within 2 feet. As far as noise levels, it's pretty quiet. At >= 27 inches from the fan directly pointing to my ears it's inaudible. Luckily for me, mine will be tucked inside a Fractal Define C on the floor with its fan facing the carpet and more than 1 m away from my ears.


So I've built the system. The SSR650px exhibits a very slight buzzing noise at idle, I don't know if this is normal? I was hoping for dead silence?

edit: So good news and bad news. The plan to silence the PSU seems to have worked, so that at game loads, the PSU fan doesn't even turn on. At least given the short time I tested this morning. the bad news is the buzzing is coil whine from the GPU which changed with the framerate. I did not get this with the old PSU (that I could hear).

The whine varies with framerate and is not quite as bad as the fan noise from the old PSU, but I didn't pay £110 for another PSU to have this new problem :( Any advice on getting rid of whine? I've read about disabling some things in the bios, and that coil whine is usually caused by the PSU, not he actualy GPU...

As the new PSU is fully modular, the wires from the PSU now touch the PCB of the GPU, I wonder is this is what is causing it. It's definately not the fans, so changing to the Kraken won't help.... :(


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:08 am 
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Sorry about your noise troubles :( . I don't have experience to offer any good advice, but if you think the PSU cables touching the GPU PCB is a cause, is it possible to temporarily lift and hold them off to notice any difference?

Also, is the buzzing at idle with hybrid mode on i.e. stopped fan? From what I've read over the years coil whine sometimes could be a result of bad combos between components too. I dug up some old SPCR answers from:
Abula wrote:
Quote:
"As mentioned in the review, Seasonic reports that adjustments in the BIOS of some recent motherboards eliminates electronic noise completely with many earlier production samples. The settings are:

BIOS set up to ENABLE ErP/EuP (S4~S5)
BIOS set up to DISABLE Audio Always On"

You can also email Seasonic. They are pleasantly responsive, even on weekend nights.


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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Having the modular psu wires touching the gfx board are not a problem.

Beyond the bios changes, you could try framerate limiting (usually an option within a game) and see if it has a positive affect.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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 Post subject: Re: Build ruined by PSU. I need to change PSU fan, pls advis
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:16 am
Posts: 8
So I have a resolution to my issues (or at least a conclusion).

I removed the Seasonic PSU from the case (still connected) and ran some benchmarks - still buzzing.

I put the Corsair TX550m back in (both inside and outside the case) and.. buzzing.

So it was always there from the GPU, but because the fan noise from the Corsair was so loud, I never heard it before.

The GPU never buzzed in my old Alienware system, so why it's doing it now I have no idea, but then again, that had a super loud blower fan on it, so maybe it buzzed then also and I never noticed.

So I've put the Seasonic back in and will live with it. The fan doesn't turn on from the PSU at all in hybrid mode, so I have a fanless PSU! I've also reworked the cables so they don't touch the PCB.

I have noctua fans and a non-agressive fan profile and it's pretty damn quiet even under full load, so I'm pleased.

Thanks for all the support/advice! :)


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