Had such a great response to my Saddam post that I decided to post something even more provocative.

no, why should one that has all the powers you could even think of make this kind of shitty world

I think god was just invented to blaim someone in the early years. Like we lost a war, its because we didnt say enough prayers to the God of war.

Thats why different countries have different gods. If there really was one I think they'd all believe in the same god(s)

I think Ralf needs to find a new hobby or a more timeconsuming SO

what's an SO ?

Hey, we must be amusing somebody.

hehe, this thread reminds me, i was at church today with my school, then this guy asked if we believe in God, and everybody said no.

then he said, i guess the only one who believes in God in here is the priest, and pointed at him.

then the priest said "yea, but i get paid for it"

Ralf, these posts are hilarious. Way to stir the pot!

Seriously, what's next. There was no holocaust?

Just poking fun at you man! I voted!

THERE IS A GAMINGGOD!!!!

The long-haired hotty out of town this week, Ralf? You seem to be either bored or taking a new interest in stirring up political controversy.

Another good poll would be:

Should Canada be made the 51st state?

They'd have to hurry or they'll be 52nd, after Iraq.

Sorry, I forgot to give you my views on the actual question.

I often describe myself as a Zen agnostic: The fact that I know that I don't know means that I am both knowing and not knowing simultaneously.

Makes perfect sense too me.

M

Excellent idea! I just hope the Canooks aren't upset about being 2nd.

M

so Ralf, what do YOU think?

Yeah, and I'm trying to be all Zen and accepting about how you blew past me like I was standing still in the Folding stats, too!

I'm mid way through my evil plan to ramp up my Folding production and try to catch you again, but I think I croaked an XP1900 CPU last night while I was fooling with things, so one machine is down until I can get a new CPU.

Does anyone else think that Folding may be a new religion?

Hmmm, I might steal that from you. My own usual line is, "I'm a non-practicing agnostic."

OK, obligatory Zen joke:

Q. How many Zen Buddhists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A. Three. One to do it, and one not to do it.

Another:

A Zen Buddhist goes up to a hot dog vendor and says, "Please, make me one with everything."
[ a long pause ]
He then hands over a five-dollar bill and the vendor asks, "Do you want change for that?" Without hesitation, the Buddhist replies, "Change comes from within."

Now, if y'all don't believe in a deity, what is your motivation for morality?

More importantly, what is the purpose of life?

My answer: the purpose of life is the pursuit of perfection and beauty; I at least tell myself that I live for more than pleasure (the argument here, that I don't fully agree with, is that morality is the result of guilt and that it's more pleasurable to be moral than not b/c guilt feels bad).

I believe I'm a theist or deist, something like that. I think there's a god, but I haven't figured it all out yet.

Welcome to agnosticism, Trip. We know something's going on, but we're not quite sure what it is.

At the risk of kicking the hornet's nest, I'll post some irrelevant (and very rough) stats:

~6 billion Earthlings

~1 billion practicing Christians
~1 billion practicing Muslims
~1 billion practicing Hindus

~3 billion people practicing "other stuff" (Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zen, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Scientology, Atheism, Agnosticism, Natalie Portmanism, non-practicing members of "the big 3," etc., etc.)

So even if one group is right, it means that almost everyone is wrong (except for the Natalie Portmanists, GG.) The agnostic does not make a choice because they feel there is no clear choice. The Zen Agnostic also realizes that not choosing is, in itself, a choice.

To me, "morality" is the code that other people think I should live by. "Ethics" is the code that I choose to live by. (And "prepositions" are what I should not end my sentences in.) I like to try to live my life to the fullest because I'm not certain that I'll get another shot at it after I die. I try, but I don't always (or even often) succeed. I know for a fact that there's a place six feet underground where I'll go when I die, but anything beyond that is a mystery to me.

I think that if we are the only intelligent entities in the universe, then there's a lot of real-estate being wasted out there. I certainly hope that we're not the most intelligent thing going, either.

Basically I'm comfortable with not knowing about the great beyond. I'm certainly curious, but I'm not freaked out about what happens when I die. I do put creedence in some of the aspects of Zen because I have actually experienced what Zen calls "the void" on multiple occasions (and it had nothing to do with drugs, alcohol, sleep deprivation, or any other consciousness-altering activity.)

So Zen Agnosticism is what I've come up with, complete with a catchy and somewhat confusing tag line. Anyone is welcome to join me, and you don't even need to send money.

I bet all the Canadians on this board would vote "yes" on that. Just think they could buy from Newegg, SVC, get Spinpoints and all that good stuff, just like a First World Nation!

51st state? Only if we get Bush-free status and get to keep socialized medicine, beavers & polar bears & maple trees, and Canadian gun laws.

I didn't vote because my choice wasn't there: Does it really matter? It's only the belief that does.

Don't forget the requirement that hockey replace baseball/football as the national sport, Mike

Is that another form of the statement, "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere about it"?

To those who say there is not a god: From a logic PoV, doesn't conclusively saying that there is no god assume your own omniscience? Wouldn't you have to know everything about everything in order to conclusively determine that there is no god -- at all -- anywhere? If you're not omniscient, then the possibility exists that there is a god, but you just don't have enough data to know it.

To those who don't know: What would it take for you to conclude that there is a god? (What kind of evidence would push you over the edge?)

I'm not agnostic, and am more of a theist than a deist.

I live by a code of ethics because I believe it is right, not just from guilt, but what I meant was that guilt is probably part of the reason I am ethical.

However, I don't live ethically so much from the fear of a god; tradition and reason are greater influences. I believe that the creator is good and that he wouldn't mind me doing good. That said, my ethics don't fully overlap with those of devout Christians, Christianity of course is my ethical background. The whole innocent, naive do-gooder stereotype doesn't apply; I don't trust non-local charities and rarely give money to beggars. My ideal society is somewhat isolated, allowing the rest of the world to do as it pleases; I'm not much for forcing conversions and that sort of thing, heh, guess I'd need to find God first before all that.

I'm suprised there are so many devout atheists - how can you prove there is no God?

I thought Canada already was a state? (Damn US public schools) Except for the funny looking money and the speed limit signs in Kph, every Canadian town I've ever been to looks just any American town.

Ever notice that Ralf starts these threads and then walks away? Hmm...


As for the actual topic of this thread: I believe in God, but not Religion

My understanding is that prior to the big bang, there existed an extremely small piece of matter with an extremely high mass. So,

1. What set the bang off?

2. Where did this piece of matter come from?

3. If the universe is going to eventually collapse back on self and thereby bring an end to it all, can I just go ahead and stop making my car payments?

That Ralf, what a guy, eh?!

But his behavior is apropos for this topic. To many of us, it looks like if there is one, he started the whole mess then just walked away.

Russ, I'm not far from you on that. I may or may not believe in some power/intelligence above and beyond, but organized religion -- especially the Catholic Church -- is close to the top of my yech! list. Not that it's all bad. In many places and times of extreme political repression in the world, Christian churches have often provided a core of support for the downtrodden and helped to mount a successful defense (offense?) against the repression. Lots of places in Latin America in the last 50 years, Korea and China in the early part of the the past century under Japanese oppression, etc...

BUT the network which has the Vatican at its head -- well, to me, that's just another state with all the apparatus, extremely active financial arm, political BS and out-of-touch ideology -- all with the aim of ensuring its own survival.

OK, there's some gasoline for that fire Ralf started!

mas92264, you refer to a closed universe. According to this theory we exploded out and should be slowing down as gravity overcomes the expansion force. However, our acceleration appears to be increasing. The universe looks like gas in a vacuum - the matter is expanding to fill the void. The question is, how large is the void? If it is infinite, then it would appear the universe will continue to spread until there are no clumps large enough to sustain life. If it is finite or gravity begins to take over and pulls everything back to the center then time will repeat itself or at least could repeat itself. Perhaps each time the universe is different - things occur as a continuous chain reaction and occasionally repeat, but not always.

There is so much we still do not understand about matter. Heh, we still don't understand subatomic particles and even energy and it even looks like Einstein was very wrong on a number of his theories, as were many before him.

so what happens when u get to the edge of the universe? does it just keep going or is there a big wall and a sign that says "edge of universe, nothing else to see, please turn around"

What happens when "you" get to the end of the universe........Thats easy, Natalie Portman will be waiting for ya

Trip, your talking about theoretical physics reminds me of Richard P. Feynman. He was a Trip. He talked about all those scenarios.