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 Post subject: Suggestion for a powerful/silent selectable WC rig? -updated
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:21 pm 
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Edited post.

I'm thinking about getting three or five Evercool 120mm fans for my future watercooled rig do to their good stock specs: 79.14CFM, <30 dBA @ 12V.

Basically I want to have my cake and eat it too as I want a killer overclocker setup and silence too on demand. I'd like to hook these up to a 5.25" fan controller and run them at 5V or 7V when just doing word processing, browsing, and such, and then crank them up when gaming.

Which of these setups is the best? Any suggestions on any tweeks or major changes?

Image

Image


The 9cm fans will be Zalman 92mm fans ( link1, link2 ), which based on my Zalman CNPS6000-AlCu, are extremely quiet in silent mode. I might go for this 92mm Nexus fan , but only if I go for the second setup as they wouldn't be able to expel the incoming air with setup1 when the Evercools are at 12V.


Just to give you an idea of what I want...

My 2600+ rig has a Zalman CNPS6000-AlCu in silent mode and two 80mm Vantec stealth fans (which I've heard are apparently not the great according to some of the guys on this forum). The powersupply is the ultra quiet, but like zero CFM Zalman ZM400A-APF.

I would like my future machine to be at least the same quietness, but preferably even quieter.

I plan on doing some serious A64 overclocking with this rig. IMHO underclocking is for the birds! I want the best of both worlds, and I'm confident, with a little strategy, my goal can be attained. Remember, the CPU, GPU, and probably the Northbridge and HDTV capture GPU will be watercooled.


Thanks for the help guys. Feel free to make any suggestion at all!


DrCR


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Items So Far:
- An old Macase Full Tower (that will be heavily modded)
- 1977 Bonneville Heatercore (same as Caprice),
Dimentions: 27.5cm x 16.3cm x 5cm (Yes, Huge!)
- IWAKI MD-20RZT


Last edited by DrCR on Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:32 pm 
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The heatercore will just support six nonoverlapping 80mm fans, so I may go for 80mm fans instead.

I plan to use a fan controller, but I can't use a 0V-12V as my family will be using this rig, and I don't want the system fried. :lol: I'm still looking for a 5V-12V fan controller.


As for setup2, I may just have an opening, no fan, on the botton front side of the case and just let the two 90mm, the one 120mm, and the powersupply suck in all the air. Would this "setup3" do the trick?

Image


DrCR


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:40 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:59 am 
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DrCR, I think you will get more answers if you post your WC questions in the Watercooling section.

I don't do WC (at least not yet), so I really can't help you here... Hopefully Chylld will find this message...

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Happy silencing!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:56 pm 
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hooray for the watercooling section :)

from experience i can tell you that the evercool fans will be too noisy, even at 5v. when you're pulling air through a radiator you have a lot of turbulence noise which just adds to the problem, a low speed fan is perfectly adequate. after trying the evercool, the papst 4412fgml and papst 4412fgl i can heartily recommend the 4412fgl. the performance difference is negligible (1-2C, maybe) and they're pretty much as quiet as it gets (haven't personally tried the new nexus.)

regarding your setup, i think you're very lucky to be able to mount a 2x120mm rad in the front of your case, that's near optimum provided your bezel is sufficiently air-y.

if this were my system, i'd simply have the 2 fans on the radiator, the psu fan and that's it. with the 2 front fans you'll be running a positive pressure which is enough to push air out the back. i strongly recommend refraining from using any case fans unless you start to have problems (and i seriously doubt you will).

i wouldn't recommend using 80mm fans on the rad, because if you have 6 of them then it can get pretty noisy. dB(A) values don't tell the whole story, if you do the math you might well find that 6 x 80mm fans produce less dB(A) than 2 120mm fans. however, what will be greater is the sound intensity and that will be very audible indeed. also, 2x 120mm fans = cheaper :) watercooling will cause a leak in your wallet if not in your system.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:57 am 
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chylld wrote:
from experience i can tell you that the evercool fans will be too noisy, even at 5v. when you're pulling air through a radiator you have a lot of turbulence noise which just adds to the problem, a low speed fan is perfectly adequate. after trying the evercool, the papst 4412fgml and papst 4412fgl i can heartily recommend the 4412fgl. the performance difference is negligible (1-2C, maybe) and they're pretty much as quiet as it gets (haven't personally tried the new nexus.)



I assume your talking about when running the 4412fgl at 5V?

Yeah, the nexus fans caught my eye when browsing endpcnoise.com


chylld wrote:
regarding your setup, i think you're very lucky to be able to mount a 2x120mm rad in the front of your case, that's near optimum provided your bezel is sufficiently air-y.


I might, if I go for duct setup similar to setup2 or setup3, have the fan mounted on he side of the case blowing outward. As for the front of the case, I have a very nice sized grill, but I might do some modding there too. I do not want the heatercore getting pre-heated air and this is why I’m just mounting it up on the top of the case with fans blowing upward.

My case is the one on the far left.
Image

chylld wrote:
if this were my system, i'd simply have the 2 fans on the radiator, the psu fan and that's it. with the 2 front fans you'll be running a positive pressure which is enough to push air out the back. i strongly recommend refraining from using any case fans unless you start to have problems (and i seriously doubt you will).



Yeah, part of the reason I posted this was to see if my case cooling was overkill. After all, most of the hot components are going to be watercooled. Thanks for your imput.

FYI: I think I might be going for the Seasonic Super Tornado (which is quieter under load than the Super Silencer), but I'll make that call when I start ordering all the parts.


chylld wrote:
if you do the math you might well find that 6 x 80mm fans produce less dB(A) than 2 120mm fans. however, what will be greater is the sound intensity and that will be very audible indeed.




Sound intensity? What do you mean by that?


chylld wrote:
also, 2x 120mm fans = cheaper :) watercooling will cause a leak in your wallet if not in your system.




Very true. :lol: Thanks for your input chylld!


DrCR



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:39 pm 
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not quite sure what i meant by sound intensity lol :) i'm in the middle of cramming for final exams so my head isn't exactly screwed on straight.

i think i was talking about how 6 80L's would have a much more defined, sharp sound than say 2 4412fgl's. i'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to research that :)

and re the 4412fgl, i'm running 2 of them at 7v atm. i could run them at 5v with little to no performance cost, but i actually like the kinda "white noise" sound the air turbulence makes as it enters the radiator. it's very very soft, but it's soothing enough. with the evercool, it was a bit too loud for my tastes :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:03 am 
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The 80mm option is pretty much out, but if I did go for it, they would be Zalman 80mm in silent mode.


chylld wrote:
with the evercool, it was a bit too loud for my tastes :)



Did you try running the Evercool 120mm at lower than 5V though? I've run an Evercool 70mm reliably at 3V before.


Take your time to respond. Focus on your finals! :)


DrCR


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:36 pm 
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hehe finals are no biggy. once you figure out how the education system works it's easy to ace subjects. *cough*

my evercool refused to spin up at anything below 5v. (unless i prodded it to get it moving).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:46 pm 
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chylld wrote:
hehe finals are no biggy. once you figure out how the education system works it's easy to ace subjects. *cough*

my evercool refused to spin up at anything below 5v. (unless i prodded it to get it moving).



Cool deal. Thanks for the input chylld! :D

I posted a 'best 120mm in restricted env' post in the Fans&Control section so maybe someone who's worked with Nexus fans will comment over there.

Another BIG thanks! :mrgreen:


DrCR


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:17 am 
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What about using a blower like Cather's setup? (You know, the waterblock maker Cather)

From this thread:
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/s ... ge=1&pp=20

Image

Image

"A picture showing the suction strength of the blower at full speed - holding a 100 page glossy A4 sized magazine against the radiators:"

Image

"A picture of me standing with the box after winning some Australian overclocking competition."

Image

Quote:
I do run my rads in series. That picture was taken just after I built the radiator box and had been plumbed for the first time. They've been in series from about two weeks after that picture which was taken about 7 months ago.

Yes, the heater-core blower was picked up at a car radiator repair workshop.

There was an overclocking competition held back in July '03 for Australians to see who could post the highest 3DMark'03 score. I managed a score of 7560 Marks with the 9800Pro and my older Week 4/03 Barton XP2800+ at 2790MHz. At the time (July 31st '03) it was the 10th highest 3DMark'03 score in the world and was the highest AMD score world-wide. It just beat out the #2 guy by only 9 Marks who had a Prommy Mach II cooled 3.9GHz P4 with a TEC cooled R9800Pro.

I've since taken this newer Week 30/03 XP2500+ up to 2850MHz, but haven't really tried to push it - it should be capable of 2900MHz with a bit more effort.

For the competition the R9800Pro was taken up to 570MHz core / 395MHz mem (no artefacts). The memory on this card is pretty reluctant about going higher. Pushing higher on either core/mem led to artefacting and subsequent lockups. The GPU was cooled by a prototype Hydra GPU block and a 172W TEC.

All up the cooling setup costs less than a Prometia Mach II would cost, so not too heavy on the pocket, but definitely "up there" in terms of cost. The main benefit though is that it cools more than just the CPU.

I don't use anything as an additive - just plain tap water.





How quiet (from a SPCR perspective) are these blowers?



DrCR


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:38 am 
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DrCR, if you follow the link you put in this thread and the other thread, you'll find your noise question answered by Cathar in one of his subsequent replies.

He also suggests a way for you to experience a rough guide to the noise produced.


Pete


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:11 pm 
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Yeah, here it is. I way just wondering if anyone here had any personal experience with blowers. Apparently blowers have a lot more pressure than axial fans and that's exactly what you want for pulling air through a dense heatercore.

cather wrote:
It's 12V as standard 'cos it's made for a car.

It has 3 speed settings. I run it at 7V/lowest speed setting normally. Here it draws about 20W of power and is about as good as a 100+CFM 12cm fan, but I can barely hear it running.

At full speed (12V/high) it will draw around 250W of power (!!) and is rated at about 650CFM with a peak air pressure about 10x that of a 100CFM 12cm fan.

As explained above, I got mine from a car radiator repair work-shop. These sorts of places are everywhere. You could also go to a car wreckers and rip one out of a late model car. I say "late model" because you don't want it to have been sitting around in a car wreckers yard for a few years as the bearings may have gone rusty....

Stick it on the lowest setting and you won't hear it. Stick it on the highest and it's a middling volume rushing air roar that you can still talk over without needing to shout, but it's definitely loud. I dunno, 65dBA at full roar at a guess. 30dBA at 7V and low speed at a guess.



Has anyone here used something like this at all, or will I be a loner on this one (the fringe of fringe :wink: ).


DrCR


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:17 pm 
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i plan to experiment with it in the coming months but not in the immediate future - so go ahead and be spcr's pioneer :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:57 am 
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I have some experience of similar fans but as Cathar says, sit in an average or even better a selection of cars to experience what he is utilising.

What I know/think is...

They can definately generate more pressure but at the expense of perhaps more noise. How that translates to sucking ability (which is what you'll be doing) is different though and will vary from fan to fan. Remember these fans don't suck, they create a high pressure at the exit/nozzle and as a consequence a low pressure is created at/around the hub which then is fed by normal pressure air trying to 'fill the gap'. (Yes I know all fans work in approx. this way but there is a difference in the mechanical coupling to the air.) Tight tolerances of the turbine to the housing will help in this instance.

Photocopiers use these fans to generate suction to aid the passage of paper through the machine, so they can obviously be used in the suck mode reasonably effectively.

I use a 24V rotary fan (@ 7V) from a copier to blow air across/through the fins of my CPU heatsink.

It's definately not silent or even 'very' quiet, however the signature of the noise it does make is very inoffensive and as such maybe less annoying than a normal fan. The noise is fairly low frequency kind of like a 'hum' and 'soft' in nature. The wind noise is there as you would expect but again it's of a softer nature, largely because, IMO, ordinary fans slice into the air (and fingers, eh boys :roll: ) to generate pressure and therefore air flow whereas rotary/squirrel cage fans sort of 'throw' the air out and rely on pressure differential to feed the hub with more incoming air. That is, that rotary fans dont deliberatley 'collect' the air in the same way.

They also have a downside/benefit in that they change the direction of the airflow by 90Degs. Something that may be of great help or a complete PITA in my experience.

Don't know if any of this answers any of your questions or helps in any way but at least it's some more ingredients for the melting pot.


Pete


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:49 pm 
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Thanks Pete! :D

If you don't mind my asking, from what kind of copier is it from and where did you purchase it? As far as noise, I don't mind the noise you described near as much as the traditional computer noise.

At which fan level in your car does your blower sound like? Do ou you have a mic on your computer? Anyway you could make a nice little mp3? Totally optional! But I'd love you for life. :mrgreen:


Do you all think the blowers on some cars would be better than others? As in a BMW or a Lexus have a quieter blower than say, a mainstream Ford or GMC car?


DrCR


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:19 pm 
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This is the closest individual part I've found so far:

http://www.airflow-usa.com/products/det ... l_number=A

Image

Image


DrCR


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:55 pm 
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I bought a couple of the Torin blowers that OCForums hyped a while ago. They're rated for 24V, but I've used them only at 12V or lower. Both blowers stall around 8V, but they're still moving a bunch of air at that point. (I'd guess at least as much as an Enermax 120 at 5V.) As expected, they also produce far more pressure than any axial fan I've seen. The airflow noise is low, very low, with a pleasant white-noise texture and an absence of pure tones. HOWEVER, the bearings are loud. I haven't tried oiling the blowers yet, so that may help. If a good bearing would allow these units to run smoothly at 7V, they would be the best medium-to-high airflow "fans" I own.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:23 am 
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DrCR, I got my fans from a junk copier or two (I'm a copier engineer). Minolta's as I remember, maybe Sharp's but most analogue and some digital copiers use them.

Mine are 'Nidec Gamma32's' though they are much older than the spec sheets and info at www.nidec.com

The noise varies immensley with voltage perhaps more so than axial fans, but as it is a very different style/type of sound the 'irritability' is very different, so is the ability of other noises to mask it. In absolute terms they may not be quieter but generally you can ignore the sound much easier as HammerSandwich said. Mine have been stripped, cleaned and relubricated with a light weight oil spray containing PTFE, they do however appear to have a slight imbalance but due to the way they get suspended any vibration transmitted to the case is 'unfeelable'.

The noise is not comparable to my car blower in any way, my car only really suffers from wind noise... mmm, wonder if the insurance company would believe the theft of only the heater fans... and core for when I go WC..mmm... :twisted:

Car blowers also vary immensely, not always linked to price though. I have been in little renault's with very quiet blowers and bmw's with appaling blowers..... think it may have a lot to do with ducting as well...

If I can find my mic and spare Nidec I'll see what I can do about emailing you a sample of voltages.

HammerSandwich, just as a thought, it may be worth pulling your fan/s apart and seeing if there's a bearing no. in there and finding some replacements. SKF and many other people make bearings and I'd bet a non cheap version would work wonders. Even just the bearing dimensions should enable a good shop to help you out.


Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:51 pm 
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peteamer wrote:
The noise varies immensley with voltage perhaps more so than axial fans...

This is a good observation with which I agree.

peteamer wrote:
...it may be worth pulling your fan/s apart and seeing if there's a bearing no. in there and finding some replacements.

That's a GREAT suggestion, and I'll keep it in mind. Don't expect results any time soon, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:11 pm 
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Oh wow, thanks guys! :D

I work at an Information Technologies dept. (but only part time during the school year) and I checked out some huge HP Laserjet 4SI junk printers that we had around, but they use large axial fans to do the job.

I'm looking for something pretty big here. I'm going to be cooling a 1977 Pontiac Bonneville heatercore.

Heatercore Dimentions (depth x height x width) :
Fins Dimentions: 2"x 9 3/8"x 6.5" (5cm x 23.7cm x 16.3cm)
Overall: 2"x 10 3/4"x 6.5" (5cm x 27.4cm x 16.3cm)

The blower body must fit within the dimentions (the air extake may be slightly outside the 7" specification) (width x depth x height):
Ideal max: 7"x ~3"x 10 1/4"
Absolute max: 7"x 4"x 11 1/2"


Thanks again!

DrCR

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P.s. Sorry for the late response. I've been working on my home computer. And feel free to send me an message through this forum for my email address if you get around to making those mp3s. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:21 pm 
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peteamer wrote:
Mine are 'Nidec Gamma32's' though they are much older than the spec sheets and info at www.nidec.com



Ah, I think I found them. :)

http://www.xtremetek.com/reviews/index.php?id=11&page=1

But they don't seem to move a whole lot of air at default 24V. Wouldn't they be pathetic at 7V? Then again, you did say your's were different.
http://www.nidec.com/gamma32/gamma32.htm


Wow, a nice thick axial fan has some sweet pressure too. Check their 127mm x 51mm and 172mm x 55mm fans! Though even at their minimum 7V, I bet those fan still sound like a hurricane. lol
http://www.nidec.com/fans.html#


I guess I could duct their 175mm x 69mm impeller, but with 330 CFM at default 24V, I doubt it would be quiet enough for me at 12V.
http://www.nidec.com/bci175/bci175.htm

Thinking about Nidec lead me to check out another OEM fan maker, Sunon. I found a Magnetic Levitation fan technology a year or so ago and I just recently posted in the "Fans & Control" forum <here> as to whether anyone here was familiar with the them.

I don't want to rehash my thread here, but you can read up on the technology here:
http://www.sunon.com.tw/products/pdf/2004maglev.pdf


The good news is that Sunon makes a MagLev blower! :D
http://www.sunon.com.tw/products/pdf/dc ... blower.pdf , page17. The specs don't look to radical compared with Nidec's offerings, but my thought is that the motor noise will be non-existant when undervolting. Two of these should do me proud, now I just have to find a vendor selling this type... :wink:


DrCR


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Last edited by DrCR on Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:41 pm 
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bump


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:10 am 
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I found them at good old Directron. :)

http://www.directron.com/12plb2.html


I just contacted a local computer shop and as part of their customer policy, you can test before you buy. Hopefully soon I'll be able to give a report on the noise factor with this MagLev blower as well as a high pressure Sunon MagLev 120x32 fan.


DrCR


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:18 pm 
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I haven't had the time to check out the Sunon blowers, but I'm thinking about using Camry blower. The width/height dimentions are about 6.5" x 6", but I have yet to find numbers on the depth.

Image


A co-worker friend of mine has a late 90s model and said is was very quiet. Hopfully I'll get a chance to hear it myself.


DrCR


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:17 am 
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DrCR, sorry I seem to have dropped off the Watch for replies service for this one :-( ... let us know how you get on and B.T.W. I'm about to post a reply Here that though not directly related may be of some interest.


Pete

(Will take a while for me to write it up though.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:14 pm 
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peteamer wrote:
I'm about to post a reply Here that though not directly related may be of some interest.


Nice thread, thanks. I dropped off watching that one. lol


Update:

The extake 120mm fan will be a Nexus, and I'll mod something like the Seasonic Super Tornado (already pretty quiet, esp. on low load) with a 120mm Nexus as well. I thought about liquid cooling it (i.e. not necessarily water), but I've decided it's not worth the hassle. I'll have to run the PSU Nexus off a fan controller since the PSU undervolts the stock fan below the Nexus's threshold of 7V, but I planned to get a fan controller anyway.

I may drop the two 92mm fans totally, but I'm thinking about keeping one, or perhaps instead having a 120mm intake by the cards. I've dropped the Zalman's as they are not the same kind of fan that Zalman ships with their heatsinks. The fan will an evercool if I go for an intake by the cards as I'll be having a window and looks will be a factor. Otherwise, it will be a 92mm Nexus.

For the hard drive(s), I plan on watercooling them (using a homemade "block") and sandwitching them in open celled, closed celled, and then aluminum plates. I might not watercool them though and in place of the standard aluminum plate concept use some old passive Slot-A heatsinks I pull from some old junked 233MHz Compaqs I got from work.

As far as asthetics, I plan on having my cake and eating it too as I plan on utilizing two layers of foam, a layer of closed cell, a top layer of open cell, and a mirror bottom as well (and aluminum plate mounted on the bottom of my steal tower with closed cell inbetween). I'll have to post some pics of the overall design I'd like to mimic as well as silentize. It will be a chore getting my old beige full tower to look and perform the way I'd like, but I figure if that saves me a hundred dollars or more from not getting a new case, it's that much more I can spend on the computer hardware instead. :)


DrCR


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