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 Post subject: Silverstone's Flagship: Temjin TJ06 PC case
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:32 am 
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Review of the Silverstone's Flagship, the Temjin TJ06 PC case -- upsidedown motherboard, wind tunnel for CPU with dual 120mm push/pull fans front/back, aluminum bezel w/ steel chassis, etc, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:29 am 
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In the Temjin 6 review, MikeC wrote:
"It is ideal both for a thermally excessive overclocked system of the type still favored by many gamers"


Ooh! I love it! :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:56 am 
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The deisgn is good looking.

The wind tunnel is the best I have seen so far. Access to the HDs must be very easy. However, they lack the mechanical decoupling that the Antec Sonata features.

I'm wondering if this could be the best off the shelf quiet computer case... Does it have better cooling than the Sonata? How does the noise compare to a stock Sonata?

I'm wondering how well could a socket-A system would be cooled in such a casing. Since the CPU is in the "Wind Tunnel", I'm guessing that any good heatsink with heatpipes and the fins in the right direction could cool quite well.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:40 pm 
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No contest against a Sonata -- the Sonata doesn't even come close for airflow or cooling or quality of fans. They're in different classes. The Sonata is a kind of starter piece but if you like to mess around or go for super quiet, you quickly outgrow it. Access to drive is totally easy, and and even though the cables have to go inside, because the other side panel is removable, this is a cinch.

It doesn't matter what CPU you put in there. I am sure the wind tunnel + dual 120s + any top HS will handle the hottest CPU.

The only real issue is if you use a really hot VGA card without an exhaust type HSF for it, and more than ~3 hard drives in the drive bay. The combination of high heat in the upper chamber + possible blockage by the HDDs of the airflow path for the PSU fan will probably push temps up and also cause the PSU to heat up & its fan to speed up and get noisier.

But if you have that many drives, you're not really going to have a quiet case unless you suspend them, so the HDD/PSU issue may be moot -- you'll want to put the HDDs elsewhere to suspend them.

A possible mod for really hot VGA + many drives might be...

- cut a 120mm hole on the back panel under the PSU and put a quiet 120 in there. That takes care of any heat issues in the upper chamber.

- open the top one or two CD bays and create a PSU fresh air duct -- discussed in the PSU forum

- use a quiet 80mm fan PSU

- suspend quiet hard drives in the airflow path into the PSU, probably right in the CD bay. The PSU fan will probably have enough airflow to keep the HDDs cool enough. If needed you could even suspended a quiet fan inline in front of the PSU in the middle of the duct to help the airflow. If all the fans are quiet ones run at 7V or less, even a very high wattage system could run reasonably cool at under 25 dBA/1m in this case.

Keep in mind that the 21-22 dBA/1m of the test system is quiet enough to be inaudible under the desk for most people. It is probably quieter than my main system that I am using right now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:02 pm 
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The TJ-06 is a very interesting product. I'm curious to see how something like the NCU-2000 would fare in the wind tunnel. Or perhaps a product like Alpha's U18C.

I suspect that the windtunnel can have an even stronger effect on a product that was meant to be passive.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:10 pm 
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sthayashi wrote:
The TJ-06 is a very interesting product. I'm curious to see how something like the NCU-2000 would fare in the wind tunnel. Or perhaps a product like Alpha's U18C.

I suspect that the windtunnel can have an even stronger effect on a product that was meant to be passive.


I'm wondering how well a zalman flower would work. And as a result of that, I wonder if there's any way to use a socket A or socket 478 heatsink with a socket 754 or 939 system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:17 pm 
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Looks like a good case for tower type heatsinks, as long as they aren't too tall!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:26 pm 
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mathias wrote:
And as a result of that, I wonder if there's any way to use a socket A or socket 478 heatsink with a socket 754 or 939 system.

Check the review of the XP-120. Although I must admit that getting a $50 heat sink for the 754/939 to 478 HSF bracket is kinda excessive... Maybe someone who bought the XP-120 for a P4 system will have one to sell.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:46 pm 
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IMO, just about any decent HS work OK fanless as long as the fins go front/back when mounted on the board & in the case. By decent, I mean the top dogs w/fins not too tightly spaced --

Zalman
Thermalright
Alphatech
"splayed" pins Swiftechs
most of the taller heatpipes + parallel-to-motherboard fins HS
Some of the Scythe, Coolermaster, and even elcheapos from others

heck, even stock Intel/AMD HS w/ fan removed as long as the fins are going the right way!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:16 pm 
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Nice article, but I've mixed feelings about this case. It looks well put together, with a very useful front bezel mount......sexy looking in a classy package.

But I'm not at all impressed with the thermal figures.....considering this case uses two 120mm fans dedicated to CPU cooling, in a totally ducted setup, the CPU temp figures seem high to me. And if I'm following you correctly, this case with the PSU has three 120mm fans, an 80mm fan and you suggest opening up the rear for a fifth fan. :?

I'm comparing your figures to my dBox computer with only one 120mm fan and one 80mm hd fan, complete with heavy duty air filtration.....these Silverstone figures look poor.

And I don't think you can blame the temps on that heatsink.....IMHO this case has poor execution of a ducted CPU. A neat looking clear duct, that doesn't work very well.

FWIW....I recently ordered that same heatsink, a P4 3.2 Northwood, and a new AMS aluminum case. I intend to run the whole thing on two 120mm fans without a duct, but with filtration. We'll see how these setups compare. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:16 pm 
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I'm definatly thinking the NCU-2000 would be an excellent choice here.

Mike, I recognise your point about the duct "working" with near-any CPU cooler, but for the true OCD, which one do you think would work best? (I.E., allowing the slowest fan speeds for the hottest CPUs).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:23 pm 
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FWIW....Alpha heatsinks don't work very well with airflow across the pin fins. I tried that setup with very poor results temp-wise.

An NCU 2000 probably won't fit in the clear duct from the looks of it. My NCU 1000 doesn't even fit in some standard cases....touches the case panel on cases less than 8" wide.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:40 pm 
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Maybe that windtunel would work better with the fan closer to it, or with just a heatsink fan. If it wasn't at an end, it wouldn't need any grill, or at most, a hand guard would work as well as a finger guard.

Bluefront wrote:
An NCU 2000 probably won't fit in the clear duct from the looks of it. My NCU 1000 doesn't even fit in some standard cases....touches the case panel on cases less than 8" wide.


I wonder if anyone tried cutting one of those down to make it fit. :lol:

I think this duct would work better if it was as big as possible, and came with some light foam or something to attach to block of where air could get around the heatsink.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:10 pm 
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Bluefront,

Your comparison of the temp results vs. those obtained in your boxes are a bit apples & oranges. The case is straight off the shelf with no customization except two simple cuts of plastic with a hacksaw and a single 80mm fan swap.

CPU temps at full load of 53C & case temps at 30/31Cs with a system doing 22 dBA/1m in a stock case -- what is high about those temps?! It's very impressive for a case that's so stock.

What does it matter how many fans are used if the result is quiet? The important thing is how it compares with other cases that are marketed as quiet / good. In that regard, it is about the best I've seen.

Your systems require how much custom work for you to pull off? And how many readers of SPCR can duplicate your work even if they had the time?

If you wanted to mod a case for best cooling / acoustics, this one is a great place to start.

For better overall cooling, Russ had a suggestion: It might be worth experimenting with removing the duct, which would send the intake air all over the case, and using a blow-across-the-motherboard HSF -- with fan or not -- closely coupled to the back 120mm fan.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:29 pm 
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Mike....I'm not comparing noise or anything other than CPU temps and fan speeds.

This case uses a duct to exhaust CPU heat directly....just like the dBox to which I referred. This silverstone has two 120mm CPU duct fans.....at 12v the CPU temp is higher than my single 120mm setup at about 8v.

I was curious so I just did a benchmark......My P4 2.66 maxed out about 41C (23C ambient, Aerocool HT 101). I think it's a fair comparison....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:59 pm 
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Bluefront wrote:
Mike....I'm not comparing noise or anything other than CPU temps and fan speeds.......My P4 2.66 maxed out about 41C (23C ambient, Aerocool HT 101). I think it's a fair comparison....

Different fan, different voltage, different airflow, different CPU, different HS, different motherboard... I don't know that it is a fair comparison. :lol:

I think without a well-controlled A/B comparison, it is very difficult to be fair. Which is why I often discourage peple to compare CPU temps in the forums -- it's a useless excercise unless you have enough of the same stuff set up the same way.

As often noted in the case reviews, the sample test system built in the cases is designed just to give an idea, it is usually only one of a huge variety of configs / techniques that could be used.

Let's put it this way. Whether this particular build provides better or worse cooling than yours is moot, IMO. The real point is how it compares with any other commercially available products.

* How easy is it to build a cool & quiet system in this case compared to another one?
* How easy is it to go for extreme silence in this case (with modding and whatever needs to be done) compared to others?
* How about with hot components?

The answers to the above seem very positive and clear to me. The only real issue I have is the question of the cooling in the upper half with really hot components, and I think I've already addressed how an experienced (or not) modder could tackle this. I am sure there are other mods & techniques people will come up for this case.

It's not a perfect case for a quiet PC, but it's closer than any I've seen so far.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:09 pm 
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hey good review, and this case looks really great.. i like what i'm seeing. :D
i tried to build this same kind of airflow design myself once earlier (isolated cpu and hard drives hanging under psu fan) but the execution of this case is just so much less ghetto than what i managed. bees knees...i love this minimalist silver look.


this line made me chuckle..

Quote:
Any number of good heatsinks could probably be used fanlessly here with those dual 120mm fans.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:28 pm 
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Quick pedantry -
I think the reference to "CPU slots" should have been PCI - ref. the hold down mechanism.

Last page - spelling errors.
"they piosition the PSU"
"smak dab"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:53 pm 
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Seems like suspending or Sorbothaning 2-3 HDs in the HD cage would be easy enough: rotate drives 90 degrees and stack.

MikeC, how well does the duct seal onto the HSF? I suspect significantly better temps if you used some foam to force all duct airflow through the HSF's fins.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:28 am 
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HammerSandwich wrote:
MikeC, how well does the duct seal onto the HSF? I suspect significantly better temps if you used some foam to force all duct airflow through the HSF's fins.

The 2nd and 3rd photos on this page -- http://www.silentpcreview.com/article203-page3.html -- should give you some idea. The gap between the far wall (or motherboard "cage") and the start of the duct is more than an inch. It has to be there to allow for variances in boards.

I don't think cooling the CPU is an issue at all and would not seal it as you suggest. I'd prefer to have some spillage of the 120mm fans' airflow into the upper section.

(I run folding @ home on most of my computers and am used to seeing near 60C temps on some of them. None has ever misbehaved or failed due to CPU overheating. 53C is barely warm, imo. )

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:12 am 
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MikeC wrote:
(I run folding @ home on most of my computers and am used to seeing near 60C temps on some of them. None has ever misbehaved or failed due to CPU overheating. 53C is barely warm, imo. )


And the test was conducted with CPU burn so it should be atleast a few degrees lower with folding@home. :wink:

Mike will it be possible to test the rig with a different HS, like those tall towers such as the Aero?
I also think sealing off all the gaps including the HS will improve temps even further.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:26 am 
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From the looks of it, this case was designed with one purpose in mind.....increased ability to handle hot CPUs, such as a prescott. The testing was done with a 2.8 P-4, a moderately hot cpu.

Since the CPU temp results were only average at best, I have serious doubts about this particular duct setup with a hot CPU. Which of course casts serious doubts about the case in general, and particularily it's ability to run quietly.

The duct idea looks ok, but IMHO, there's a problem.... :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:01 am 
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OK, bluefront, go ahead and have your doubts. Obviously, you want to contradict whatever it is I have to say about this case. How you can be so stubbornly convinced about something you have not heard or played with I really don't know. :roll:

You don't take into consideration any of the points I've made regarding the vagaries of your "comparison". The fact remains that temp readings of CPUs off different systems vary way too much to really compare.

And I have to say your 41C is suspect... or you have a lucky very cool running CPU -- that kind of temp has been achieved in SPCR P4 HS testing (with 2.53 or 2.8 P4s) only with the best models with fairly high airflow (and noise) in cool (20-22C) open air conditions. Have you calibrated your CPU temp reporting system?

Cooling a hot Prescott is only one of many targets of this case. If you want to put a P4-3.8 in here, I am sure it would be cooled very effectively with the fans on high. It won't be very quiet, but there are no stock case setups that will cool a P4-3.8 quietly. Anyone who wants to put a 150W CPU in their system can expect to spend a lot of $ and effort to cool it quietly.

In the meanwhile, there will be lots of others who try this case for themselves and be perfectly content with the reality: A good looking, well-made case that's quiet straight out of the box, with a unique design that allows for a different range of experiments for quiet PC seekers. Like all components, it will do only whatever you set it up to do.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:06 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
The gap between the far wall (or motherboard "cage") and the start of the duct is more than an inch. It has to be there to allow for variances in boards.

I don't think cooling the CPU is an issue at all and would not seal it as you suggest. I'd prefer to have some spillage of the 120mm fans' airflow into the upper section

Actually, I just meant how closely the duct fits around the CPU's HSF. (Think of a cross section.) Look at how big a gap there is between the HSF's baseplate and the fins; a lot of air is going to sneak through there without doing much productive. Etc.

MikeC wrote:
53C is barely warm, imo.

I don't disagree, though we don't have a very good handle on how this measurement technique compares to normal diode reports. Looks like SPCR needs a reference mobo to match its 2.8C.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:49 pm 
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I've had this case for a few months already. The moment I got it I already began modding it. I took out the entire hard drive cage and added a 120mm fan right below the PSU.

I will be adding some sorbathane where the the hard drive cage used to be and put my Raptor in one of those Xtor Xilencers that should be coming in within the next few weeks. From there the Xtor would rest on top of the sorbathane while the 120mm fan should exhaust any of the hot air. I will also be creating one of those PSU ducts at the top of the two bays as Mike mentioned earlier.

I just bought the Seasonic Super Silencer 460 A3 today and I'll probably sleeve the entire thing before I install it in the case.

I have came into a couple problems already with the case but nothing too extreme. People who in intend on buying this case should make sure that the socket on the motherboard is not at the very edge of the motherboard. I have a P4P800 and I could not install the Thermalright XP-120. I was off by maybe 2-4cm as it was hitting the bottom of the case. So now I'm stuck with the stock Intel Cooler :( for the time being.

The other problem that I had was my Enermax EG465P-VE motherboard cable was too short to route at the back of the case and forced me to remove the "insert" from the windtunnel allowing some of the intake air to escape the windtunnel.

Last problem I had with the case is the clearance between the video card with one the new VGA Silencers and windtunnel. I have an Asus 9600XT with an ATI 2 Silencer and the windtunnel actually comes into contact with the Silencer which kinda bugs me as I literally have to lift up the video card before I can put the windtunnel in place. I might just go out and get a regular VGA Silencer or the ATI 1 Silencer to fix this.

I hope some of this information helps people out there who are interested in the case!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:28 pm 
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Like many other people, I am forced to examine and make judgements about cases using the internet.....reviews, photos, posts, etc. I have very few places around here that sell cases. CompUSA is about it. And since the computer case itself plays such a big part in a quiet project, I would prefer to personally examine a case before purchase....but it usually isn't possible. That's why the reviews on SPCR are so valuable.

None the less, a person still has to read between the lines when trying to make his own judgements. Perhaps I'm seeing this case wrong....who knows? My opinions about it are based on the duct setup...nothing else.

As to my own duct projects.....a bunch....I'm certain I measure all the temps in my own computers better than most people around here. I usually use Speedfan, along with separate temp probes, LCD readouts like DigitalDoc5......and back it all up with a digital hand-held laser non-contact temp reader. I'm fairly certain any temps I post about are accurate. FWIW.... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:58 pm 
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I own this case. It is a very nice case. However every review I've seen misses several potential problems

1. Do not try to put six ide drives in this caase, The cabling becomes a mess, .it is very dififcult and next to impossible to install the left side panel with three IDE cables going to six drives It does work very well with six SATA drives. Luckily I actually wound up making a little bit of a profit selling 6 250gb IDE drives and buying 6 SATA drives

2. The key is easy to bend I found this out when I flipped it on its side with the key in the case. I know kind of a "duh" but a stronger key would help

3. The wind tunnel snaps that hold it in are easy to break. You can order a spare wind tunnel from Sundial Micro for twenty bucks

4 I didn't care for the tool-free easy to use tension mount for the PCI slots. It took some getting use to. Fortunately it is easy to remove and I use the screw holes to secure my pci cards. Removing it also improves the airflow over the PCI cards. If you do remove it use care in puttiing it back on as needs to be fitted just right for alignment purposes

5 I tried to put a Hard drive under my floppy. Unlike the optical drive bay no screw holes are provided in the 3.5" drive bat so it is impossible to pout one there. You can use brackets and the clips to put hard drives in the 5.25" bay

6 the Creative Audigy Platinum I/R drive can only be installed with screws, the clips won't work

My Hard drives are around 45-51C accroding to S.M.A.R.T

The reviewer missed the padlock hasp on the right panel. There is no hasp for the left panle buy your not going to get at anything from the left panel anyway. The green wiire in the HD bay is an intrusion alarm

I ditched the stock fans and installed adjustable enermax UC-FAB12 in the 120mm fan slots

The 5.25 EMI protectors can be screwed back in if needed


This case is actually very good and well worth the money. I'd just like to see one review where they actually try to put Six hard drive in the case.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:20 pm 
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Hi, renegade44. Welcome to SPCR Reviews!

renegade44 wrote:
...6 SATA drives

Six!!?? 1.5 TB!! I'm not sure if I should cover my ears or wipe drool off my chin :-)

Thanks for your additional comments. It's always good to hear opinions of someone who is actually using a product.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:37 pm 
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Bluefront wrote:
I'm certain I measure all the temps in my own computers better than most people around here. I usually use Speedfan, along with separate temp probes, LCD readouts like DigitalDoc5......and back it all up with a digital hand-held laser non-contact temp reader. I'm fairly certain any temps I post about are accurate. FWIW.... :wink:

First, let me say that I have read many of your posts, and I'm very impressed with your talent and ingenuity, as is evident in your many projects.

The internal diode measures the temperature of the core. Any probe you use can only measure external temperature. Many BIOS don't report the temperature accurately. Without proper calibration, the best you can expect is relative temperature differences.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:05 pm 
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[quote="renegade44"]3. The wind tunnel snaps that hold it in are easy to break. You can order a spare wind tunnel from Sundial Micro for twenty bucks

[quote]

I broke one of the snaps a few days ago though it didn't really affect anything so I left it as it. But today I took the windtunnel out and put it on the floor and while I was sucking up the dust with the vacuum, phone rang and I ran to get it. Came back and CRACK! I stepped on it by accident :cry:

Anyways where can I get the spare wind tunnel on Sundial Micro site?
I'm having a hard time finding it on the site.. :?


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