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 Post subject: Project: Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:45 pm 
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Posts: 92
Location: USA
Objective

To build a quiet computer using the new BTX form factor.

Introduction

The BTX form factor is very interesting, as it isolates the main source of heat - the processor - into its own sectioned off area, effectively improving the cooling efficiencies of the CPU heatsink and keeping the remained of the case cooler. Being that I am a fan of AMD, it would be necessary to find a solution which allowed for the same idea, but used a standard ATX board. The result would be a very quiet and cool AMD computer with tons of processing power and none of the added costs of going with Intel.

Case: SilverStone TJ-06

After consulting the boards, I found out that there already was a company utilizing the BTX form factor using an ATX board. That company was SilverStone. For my project, I selected the TJ-06, which places the ATX motherboard on the left side of the case in an up-side-down position. A plastic wind tunnel is then places around the CPU and two 120mm fans (intake and exhaust) providing the isolated CPU cooling.

Motherboard: ASUS A8N-E

It was important to ensure stabilty and ease of use when building a computer - especially when one has no freekin' idea what one is doing half the time. I went with ASUS because I have had nothing but sucess with their boards. I selected the A8N-E because it is the nForce4 Ultra version of their Socket 939 boards. It gives you all the high level functions of the SLI boards, with out the unnecessary (for my application) second PCIe 16x slot. The nForce4 chipset was important because of compliance issues with the Via chipset.

Processor: AMD 64 3000+ Socket 939 90nm

I was not looking for shere processing power, but rather current technology. I find it no use to purchase a chip based on old technology when I can just as easily use a chip based on new technology. As such, I went with the AMD 64 in its slowest version (slow just doesn't seem right). It uses the updated Socket 939 format and more importantly, the 90nm size - which improves performance with less heat disapated. The result is a super fast processor at low temps. A quiet PC dream.

CPU Heatsink: Scythe Ninja

Replaced the XP-120. Works great with the tunnel, and keeps everything nice and cool without use of a fan.

Video Card: ASUS EN6600 256

Went with ASUS to make sure everything nice and compatible. The last thing I need is an expensive videocard that doesn't play nice with my mobo. I didn't really need the 256 as opposed to the 128 version, but at only $5 more, I couldn't afford not to get it.

GPU Heatsink: Zalman VF700 AlCu

Got rid of the loud standard heatsink and replaced it with this baby. The fan is a little fast for my liking, so this may be a future upgrade. Using the Zalman flower patern heatsink does a nice job of removing the heat from the card.

Chipset Cooler: Zalman NB47J

The standard chipset fan had to go. This does a great job with no noise at all.

DVD-R/CD-R: Pioneer DVR-109

Quiet Track keeps the noise down and the flat black front panel matches my theme. Couldn't asked for more.

Hard Drive: Samsung SP0812C

Quiet hard drive; SATA; Can't ask for more.

Fan Controller: Sunbeam Rheobus

Provides great control of fans so I can keep my rig both quiet and cool without the extra readouts that I would never use.

Fans Yate Loon D12SL-12

Max speed of 1400RPM, and I have them cranked down to just under 1000RPM. One intake and one exhaust.

Power Supply: Seasonic S12-430

Just rated the quietest PSU by SPCR. Need I say more?

Pictures below...

_________________
Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


Last edited by joshd2012 on Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:21 pm 
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Pictures!!! :D

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Sonata (foamed)Bezel mod
Seasonic S12-330, 2x120mm Yate Loon [email protected], P4-2.6C w/PAL8942 80mm [email protected], 1GB Mushkin DDR400, ATI 9800Pro 128MB w/ZM80A, Samsung SATA 160Gb


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:24 pm
Posts: 92
Location: USA
Right now, the system idles from 30-33 C for the CPU and 30-35 C for the board. I hope that when I install the isolater, this will lower the board temps without raising the CPU temps.

Any questions? Suggestions? Info/pic requests?

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


Last edited by joshd2012 on Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:25 pm
Posts: 64
What difference does removing the fan from the xp-120 have? To me it just looks like it will blow the air against the wall, as well as causing turbulence. With another 120mm fan, and in a tunnel, personally i'd have removed the xp120 fan.

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moo?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:31 pm
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Location: Acton, MA, USA -- Folding for SPCR
Where did you get those dust filters?

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Lee

QX6700 at 3.0GHz, Ninja SCNJ-1100P, 8800GT, Asus P5K-E, Seasonic S12II-500GB, 2x WD5000AACS, Antec Solo
Opteron 170 at 260x10 w/7000B-Cu, 6800 GT w/VF700-Cu, DFI nF4 Ultra-D w/NB47J, Seasonic S12-500, 2x WD5000AACS suspended, Antec SLK3000B


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:35 pm 
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Location: USA
x1m - I'll have to try that once I get the isolater in; hopefully I can get it done this weekend.

ilh - Jab Tech

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:24 pm
Posts: 36
thats not BTX, thats ATX upsidedown


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: FOLDING IN TORONTO, CANADA
Can the XP 120 be rotated 90 degrees, then lose the dedicated CPU fan?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:17 am 
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Location: Houten, The Netherlands, Europe
It is never* possible to rotate an XP-120 by 90°. The mounting mechanism only allows two positions. One of which is often blocked by the power regulation components.

*unless you have enough skills and tools to create your own custom designed mounting brackets.

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3) MSI RS480M2-IL | A64 3000+ | Freezer 64 | SS-301HT | 7200.7 PATA 40GB
5) Intel D525MW | Intel 320 40GB | Vertex II 180GB


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:56 am 
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Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Hello:

What about a small transitional duct from the lower, rear fan to the XP-120 (sans the CPU fan...)? And, maybe a transitional duct from the lower, front fan to the base of the XP-120? They don't have to connect, or be sealed, but if cool air flows in near the base and the warmer air is removed from the top of the HS, then the third fan could likely be nixed?

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http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:17 am 
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miyagi wrote:
thats not BTX, thats ATX upsidedown


You know, he pretty much said that in his post.... It's a BTX case, which accomodates an upside-down ATX board.

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~mar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:58 pm 
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Posts: 92
Location: USA
NeilBlanchard wrote:
Hello:

What about a small transitional duct from the lower, rear fan to the XP-120 (sans the CPU fan...)? And, maybe a transitional duct from the lower, front fan to the base of the XP-120? They don't have to connect, or be sealed, but if cool air flows in near the base and the warmer air is removed from the top of the HS, then the third fan could likely be nixed?


I was thinking of that during design phase, but I don't think there would be much benefit. Once I close off the CPU, it will be the only major heat source in that isolater. The way I have it set up now, cool air is being pulled into the front of the case. The fan on the XP-120 sucks air (pretty cool since there is no other major heat source) from the back of the heatsink to the front. As the hot air is pulled away from the heatsink, it is pulled right infront of the exhuast fan, getting rid of it very quickly.

Once I get the isolater installed, I will experiment with turning off the CPU fan and the intake fan. It may be possible to only run an exhaust fan under idle. Lots of experimentation and changes to come. This project is far from over.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:24 pm
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Location: USA
Update

Well, I installed the isolater, and got some interesting results:

Before the isolater

CPU: 32C
Board: 35C

After the isolater

CPU: 30C
Board: 40C

The shield definitley helps with the CPU, but the board is much hotter. I'm going to ramp up the VGA cooler fan and see what that does for me.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:07 am
Posts: 2674
Location: Houten, The Netherlands, Europe
Do you know where your board temp is measured? I have seen posts, about nForce boards I believe, where the board temp was measured somewhere around the voltage regulators on the mobo. In your setup these are now inside the tunnel between the CPU and the exhaust, that is most probably the part of your case with the hottest air. Plus it won't have much airflow as it is in the "shadow" of the XP-120.

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3) MSI RS480M2-IL | A64 3000+ | Freezer 64 | SS-301HT | 7200.7 PATA 40GB
5) Intel D525MW | Intel 320 40GB | Vertex II 180GB


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:10 pm 
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Yeah, that is something I definitely need to find out. I also need to check and see if I can find a thermometer I can stick in the upper part of the case. Thanks for the tip.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:56 am 
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According to the A8N-E manual (DDR Qualified Vendor List, DIMM Support option B), some dual channel DIMMS may work in slots A2 & B2 (which are the 2nd and 4th slots). Do you know anything about this? Sounds like it would provide a little more clearance from the XP-120 heatpipes and maybe the memory would run a bit cooler because of the that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:36 am 
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m0002a wrote:
According to the A8N-E manual (DDR Qualified Vendor List, DIMM Support option B), some dual channel DIMMS may work in slots A2 & B2 (which are the 2nd and 4th slots). Do you know anything about this? Sounds like it would provide a little more clearance from the XP-120 heatpipes and maybe the memory would run a bit cooler because of the that.


The clearance is really a non-issue. I was, with some added effort, able to remove the memory from the slots you see them in now without hitting the heatpipes. Moving them over might help with heat, but you are talking about very little movement. I haven't tried with my OCZ, but I have no idea how I would check to see if they were running in dual channel even if I did. I'm just assuming they are now.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:56 am 
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Hi Josh, do you still have these pics available? I currently have the a8n-e board and was kind of hoping to see how everything eventually fit on it.


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 Post subject: What about a "lateral" CPU cooler ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:33 am 
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Location: France
With the air duct for the CPU wouldn't a towertype Heatsink be more appropriate ? It may take advantage of the push/pull configuration and would not need a fan...
I wonder if it would fit in the duct though...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:22 am 
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pics are down. i wanna see!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:04 am 
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matva wrote:
pics are down. i wanna see!

me too thanks :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:23 pm 
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roo wrote:
matva wrote:
pics are down. i wanna see!

me too thanks :)


yeah, that would be nice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:31 am 
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Sorry for the long delay. I haven't been on the board since I finished my project. Other projects in other genres - you understand.

I have gone ahead and uploaded the pics again, to hopefully a better place (my webhost screwed me, and have since moved to blogspot). Here they are:

ImageImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImage

I'm going to upgrade the fans to Orange Yate Loons. The Mad Dogs aren't loud, but I think I can gain some more control over the fans through the rheobus if I have a slower fan. I'm going to look for a quieter video card cooler (the Zalman is the loudest thing in my case, even at 7v), and a quiet SATA 3.0 hard drive and push the Samsung to the backup position.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:34 am 
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Time for some upgrades.

I went ahead and replaced my intake and exhaust fans with some Orange Yate Loons. Not too much gained.

The next step is going to be to replace the XP-120 with a Ninja. I'm hoping the tunnel will be all that's required to keep the temps down, but if not, I'll attach another Yate Loon to the front so I'll have 3 fans in the tunnel.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:36 am 
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I went ahead and replaced my XP-120 with the Ninja, and what a near-nightmare that was. Here, you can see the result:

Image

I know everything looks good now, but getting that XP-120 out of there was a near disaster. I started freeing the compression clips, and the heatsink popped up. No big surprise there. But attached to the heatsink was the CPU... not good. So I rushed to remove the motherboard and release all the clamps as fast as possible. It turns out thermal paste (Arctic Silver 5) had not actually dried, but that there was enough on there to cause a massive vacuum on the surface of the CPU. Luckily, after sliding the CPU off the XP-120 and cleaning off some of the paste, I was able to reseat the CPU and it still works (as you can tell by me typing).

After that, the problems were over. The XP-120 and the Ninja both use the same mounting hardware, so I was able to install the Ninja without having to change any of the mounts on my mobo - nice! So I'm now down to 2 Yate Loons, the Zalman GPU fan, and the PSU fan.

My custom tunnel still fits around the Ninja, and with it in place, I'm idling around 31 C. So I got rid of a fan and maintained the same temperature. Have to be happy with that.

Next step will be to get a GeForce 7 series with the passive cooler, I just have to figure how to set it up in my case (as the nice Asus one uses a CPU heatsink fan - which I no longer have!). Any suggestion?

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:19 am 
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Location: Poland, Warsaw
Quote:
Next step will be to get a GeForce 7 series with the passive cooler, I just have to figure how to set it up in my case (as the nice Asus one uses a CPU heatsink fan - which I no longer have!). Any suggestion?
i've using Thermaltake Schooner on 7800GT and it works... COMPLETELY fanless... highest temp i've noticed is 100*C:) i'm happy with that result. ive added of course some heatsinks on ram:) and last, i must mod the mounting clips, but it isnt that hard as you think. mounting holes don't match only. The rest fits very well. ooh the 3 fins on zalman nb 47j(ASUS A8N-E) don't have enough room under the Schooner so i must flex it, i dont break it. Why would I?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:16 pm 
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Do you have any pics on this?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:58 am
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Location: Poland, Warsaw
what would you like to see ? If You want i can post my whole pc in gallery.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:51 am 
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A picture if the card with the schooner would be nice.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:37 pm 
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Location: USA
Hmm.... that is an interesting concept. I don't know if I would be in favor of the external module (with dust and dirt), but it may be my only option with my only option.

Though it makes me think... is there a way to make you own heat pipes? In this configuration, If I could bring the heatsink at the end of the heat pipes up to the PSU fan, it would probably work real well.

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Project Black Hole (Updated 2/25)
SilverStone SST-TJ06-B::Samsung SP0812C::Sony MPF920::Seasonic S12-430::Asus A8N-E:: AMD64 3000+ 939 90nm:: Pioneer DVR-109BK::1GB OCZ Premier::ASUS EN6600::Scythe Ninja::Zalman VF700


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