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 Post subject: scythe ninja and shogun now at newegg!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:17 am 
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here's a question, which is better at cooling, which is better at passive cooling, which is better price/performance value,

the scythe ninja/shogun or the thermalright xp-90/120?

theoretically when it comes to passive cooling a tower heatpipe design is in theory better than a flat heatpipe design although actual performance depends on implementation.

well newegg now carries the scythe ninja and the scythe shogun.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... h&ATT=Fans

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... h&ATT=Fans


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:38 am 
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Here's a great review I came by on a German site that illustrates the effects of fin density cooling with different levels of airflow. Note that the NCU-2005 and Shogun are basically the same design, but the Shogun has more fins packed more closely together. This allows it to perform better when air is being forced over it, but hinders it with natural convection.

IMO, the Ninja appears to be the best all around heatsink, performing better than the Shogun with active cooling, and almost keeping up with the NCU-2005 passively. For all out passive cooling, I'd recommend the NCU-2005. The Shogun looks like the worst buy, performing very poorly passively, yet not even keeping up with the Ninja with active cooling.

Image

Source:
http://www.dirkvader.de/frame.php?site= ... _Towers%2F

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:40 pm 
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Good timing. I was just sitting around wondering whether to get the SCNJ-1000 Ninja or the NCU-2000. Notice I said 2000; I didn't even know they had a 2005.

SPCR noted the difference between the NCU-2000 and the NCU-1000 here. I wonder what the difference between the NCU-2005 and the NCU-2000 is? I hope someone, somewhere can give us some tests. The NCU-2000 is more widely available than the NCU-2005 atm. Let's do a quick paper comparison:

http://www.scythe-usa.com/cooler/ncu2000.htm
http://www.scythe.co.jp/en/cooler/ncu2005.htm

-Same dimensions, general construction material, and heatlane coolant material
-2005 is 60g lighter (445g to the 2000's 505g), compatible with LGA775, and includes a 120mm fanclip.

Hmmm. With the same dimensions, I wonder what the significant decrease in weight of the 2005 is attributed to; perhaps a different alloy of Al or Cu is being used.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:45 pm 
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I thought the only difference between the 2000 and 2005 was the ability to use a 120mm fan clip. I didn't notice the change in the weight spec.... maybe one of them is just mistaken. :P They sure look the same to me (except for the fan clip notches).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:14 pm 
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so is the scythe ninja the best for passive cooling, better than other scythe's offerings and better than thermalright xp-90/120 or thermaltake sonic tower?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:30 pm 
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Caudipteryx zoui: I have no clue what accounts for the higher weight of the NCU-2000. As far as I can tell, they look like the same heatsink. If I had one in my possession and not just pictures to go off, I'd probably be able to figure it out. But unfortunately, I don't.

I'm not sure what country you reside in, but Directon (U.S. based) has the NCU-2005. I believe NewEgg also has it.

dan: I think the tests prove that the NCU-2005 is the best heatsink for passive cooling. However, there is little difference between the Ninja and the NCU-2005, so it's really your call. Because the fins of the Ninja are opened up in all directions, it might perform better than the NCU-2005 in a configuration where you have an exhaust fan beside and above the heatsink. This is just speculation though, I can't back it up. What I do know is that the NCU-2005 is ~$5-10 cheaper.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:01 pm 
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This really is a tough call that comes down to case/setup specifics.

Heatlane vs. Heatpipe technology; which one would perform better in the vertical position, perpendicular to the base of my case and the ground below? My tower heatsink will be positioned as you expect a real building tower to (straight up from the ground).

I'm leaning towards the NCU-2005. I think my low-flow rear fan will be able to suck more air through it with its fewer fins (16 to the Ninja's 23) and larger gaps between them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:56 pm 
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I've just realized a potential flaw in using the NCU-2005 perpendicular to the ground like I was planning to in my setup.

I'll just quote this page @ frostytech:
Quote:
For the Scythe NCU-2000 to work properly inside the PC, the fins of the heatsink have to be oriented vertically. If the fins are oriented horizontally, convection cooling won't be nearly as effective because as the hot air rises, it will not be passing [as well] through the heatsink fins.


This is probably true with the ninja as well, but to a lesser extent. This realization is bad news for me; I may have to abandon my tower designs for my horizontal case (where the mobo sits parallel to the ground).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:05 pm 
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Caudipteryx zoui wrote:
I've just realized a potential flaw in using the NCU-2005 perpendicular to the ground like I was planning to in my setup.

I'll just quote this page @ frostytech:
Quote:
For the Scythe NCU-2000 to work properly inside the PC, the fins of the heatsink have to be oriented vertically. If the fins are oriented horizontally, convection cooling won't be nearly as effective because as the hot air rises, it will not be passing [as well] through the heatsink fins.


Unless you're trying to run your machine COMPLETELY passive, then this is not a concern. Otherwise, you will have some airflow generated by a fan, which is overwhelmingly much more airflow than convection airflow.

The tiny amount of diminished airflow from losing the convection effect will be more than made up for by the increased heatpipe effectiveness from a vertical heatpipe orientation.

In a tower case, the sideways oriented heat pipes will rely on capillary action within the wick to return condensed fluid back to the heat source. In a horizontal case, the vertically oriented heat pipes will get a boost from gravity returning the condensed fluid to the heat source.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:17 pm 
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Caudipteryx zoui wrote:
I've just realized a potential flaw in using the NCU-2005 perpendicular to the ground like I was planning to in my setup.

I'll just quote this page @ frostytech:
Quote:
For the Scythe NCU-2000 to work properly inside the PC, the fins of the heatsink have to be oriented vertically. If the fins are oriented horizontally, convection cooling won't be nearly as effective because as the hot air rises, it will not be passing [as well] through the heatsink fins.


This is probably true with the ninja as well, but to a lesser extent. This realization is bad news for me; I may have to abandon my tower designs for my horizontal case (where the mobo sits parallel to the ground).
I was seriously considering the NCU-2005 in my ideas before the Ninja came about, but I am fairly certain that one nice thing about the NCU-2005 is that it is possible for you to mount the heatlanes in any orientation you like, since it bolts on separate from the copper base. I believe on the last page of SPCR's own review of the NCU-2000, MikeC rotates the heatsink so that it deliberately has the fins facing the "wrong" way.

The Ninja should be naturally insensitive to orientation by design, which is a great plus I think, so that just makes choosing between these two just that much harder. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:45 am 
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Isaac,

My rig will not be entirely passive. Still, it will be more passive than the typical midtower setup housing a 120mm PSU intake above and a 120mm exhuast behind the CPU cooler. There will be only one 120mm exhaust behind my tower cooler, the top quarter of which will be ~1" directly behind it. It will also be in a SFF case which is lacking decent airflow atm.

However, if I understand your remarks correctly, use of the Ninja in a vertical orientation would be more effective than in a horizontal one due to the gravity-assisted fallback of the condensed heatpipe water (assuming otherwise identical setups). It appears my designs live on!

There has to be a point at which an increasingly-smaller amount of airflow is no longer enough to outweigh the benefits of convection airflow, as small as they may be, in a given setup. It doesn't appear that I will come close to this point, but it would make for a damn interesting read if someone were to test for this.

BrianE,

Rotating the NCU-2005 90 degrees as the seperate copper base allows still provides more convection cooling because the fins are still vertically oriented when the NCU-2005 is mounted horizontally. The fins may not be facing the ideal way to receive fan airflow in the review setup but they are still positioned correctly to benefit more from convection cooling than they would if the entire tower was positioned vertically.

You are right in the fact that I missed important information in that review. The real juicy info, however, is the results where the motherboard was placed horizontally (thus making the NCU-2005 vertical) and the performance was "virtually unchanged."

Guys,

The real question now is whether the heatlane tech of the NCU-2005 can benefit as much from the vertical orientation as the heatpipe tech of the Ninja.

The marketing of the heatlane tech claims that "heat transfer capability is not extremely affected by its applied position," and that it is "Hardly . . . affected by . . . gravity." That's great for those who will be using it the traditional horizontal way, but this implies only marginally improved performance for those who will be using it vertically.

Take this heatlane pic and rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise to see what we'd be working with:

Image

Thoughts?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:04 am 
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With all but completely passive convection only cooling, the differences between all three od these coolers is marginal. Given that, I'd go for the one that has the best chance of fitting well and mounting easily into your system, the greatest versatility and unidirectionality of airflow. I'd choose the Ninja.

The NCU series is more of a pain to install and directional. The Shogun has also been in the lab for as long as the Ninja, but it has not been as thoroughly used, and not tested yet. But the fan on the Shogun is not at the same low noise level as a Nexus, and the Shogun does not work as well with minimum airflow, so...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:46 am 
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Caudipteryx zoui wrote:
BrianE,

Rotating the NCU-2005 90 degrees as the seperate copper base allows still provides more convection cooling because the fins are still vertically oriented when the NCU-2005 is mounted horizontally. The fins may not be facing the ideal way to receive fan airflow in the review setup but they are still positioned correctly to benefit more from convection cooling than they would if the entire tower was positioned vertically.

You are right in the fact that I missed important information in that review. The real juicy info, however, is the results where the motherboard was placed horizontally (thus making the NCU-2005 vertical) and the performance was "virtually unchanged."
Sorry, I totally missed that key word in your previous post: "horizontal". :P I thought you were having concerns about the way the HS mounted on the motherboard, which caused me some headaches thinking about most other heatsinks.

Like MikeC seems to be saying, I think as long as you have some air passing through either cooler model, both would do just fine. 100% passive convection only sounds to be an extremely picky thing to implement, and even a little bit of airflow seems to fix things. For me I guess I just have to decide which would fit better with my plans.

I can see what you mean about mounting it vertically... I can see the Ninja with its normal heatpipes working great in this direction since none of the pipes are fighting gravity, but the heatlanes I'm not so sure. I did manage to see a video about how heatlanes worked, and it looks just like as if there's fluid in dozens of little pipettes jetting around and around rapidly. I think it works by having the vaporizing coolant propel everything, so maybe it would work as advertised in any direction?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:11 pm 
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BrianE wrote:
I did manage to see a video about how heatlanes worked, and it looks just like as if there's fluid in dozens of little pipettes jetting around and around rapidly.


IIRC, that's not heatlanes, but cappilary heatpipes, which were used with the NCU-1000, while heatlanes were used with the 2000.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:58 am 
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what works the fastest? heatpipe - heatlane or heat capillaries?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:15 am 
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mathias wrote:
BrianE wrote:
I did manage to see a video about how heatlanes worked, and it looks just like as if there's fluid in dozens of little pipettes jetting around and around rapidly.


IIRC, that's not heatlanes, but cappilary heatpipes, which were used with the NCU-1000, while heatlanes were used with the 2000.


I have an NCU-1000, and it definitely uses whatever the heck they call "heatlanes". It isn't labeled the Scythe NCU-1000 "Heatlane Zen" for nothing!

Whatever the technical details are, there seems to be little functional difference between a "heatlanes" and heatpipes. They work using the same basic physics.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:49 pm 
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http://www.silentpcreview.com/article187-page1.html :

"As with the NCU-1000 the new model is a heatpipe device. In the original, the heatpipe consisted of a circulating capillary tube which is visible at the top.

In the NCU-2000, a flat heatpipe is employed."

IsaacKuo wrote:
I have an NCU-1000, and it definitely uses whatever the heck they call "heatlanes". It isn't labeled the Scythe NCU-1000 "Heatlane Zen" for nothing!


Oh, so they call not just the flat heapipes but also the capilary pipes heatlanes. That's confusing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:45 pm 
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Getting slightly back on topic, the Ninja appears on NewEgg's listings but it's not actually available -- it says Out of Stock. Ditto for the XP-120 and Freezer 64. Does anyone know of another reputable online retailer that one can buy these from?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:04 am 
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www.bestbyteinc.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:19 pm 
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CGameProgrammer wrote:
Getting slightly back on topic, the Ninja appears on NewEgg's listings but it's not actually available -- it says Out of Stock. Ditto for the XP-120 and Freezer 64. Does anyone know of another reputable online retailer that one can buy these from?


http://www.performance-pcs.com/
where I got mine. I made my order Friday night, after they closed for the weekend. Monday morning, I asked if I could add a p4 bracket to my order from Friday to save on shipping. They added it into my order and shipped it two hours later with the rest. Good service.

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