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 Post subject: Talk Me Out Of It
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:14 am 
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This is the one.

The kit that finally has convinced me to stop struggling with air and give in to the "dark side" of watercooling.

I have big plans this spring for a truly mega-quiet PC, and this will be an integral part.

So, talk me out of it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:45 am 
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well, according to them you'll get "street respect" :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:51 am 
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something new with that kit is only the software controlled/integrated pump,so which company manufacture that pump?can it deliver true silent when undervolted?
the Sunon fan is not really quiet when undervol and the radiator is the standard Black Ice,this come as a good kit, but I will prefer PA160+a Papst.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:27 am 
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the pump is a fancy ehiem so it should be pretty quiet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:01 am 
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Things that attracted me to this Kit:
1. Cheap- only $251 shipped with CPU, GPU, chipset cooling
2. Good reviews on the CPU Block
3. Eheim pump
4. Less tubing mess with integrated reservoir
5. High-flow, low impedance radiator design
6. Everything is included (clamps, tubes, etc.)

Things I do not like:
1. Single radiator not as effective as 2x or 3x units (but quieter, and I can always add another later)
2. Integrated reservoir means slightly higher temperatures
3. BIG pump (I'll try to hide it somewhere in my new P180)

Anything I missed?

The fan will be replaced with a Yate Loon, so that's not a concern.

I know that I can probably achieve higher performance for more $ if I set it up myself, but this is my first H2O rig. While I'm hardly a PC n3wb, it's usually better to reduce the fiddling with a new product.

And again, it's cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Talk Me Out Of It
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:27 am 
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warriorpoet wrote:
So, talk me out of it.


Ok...

It is probably not going to be any quieter than an aircooled system would be, and it will (depending upon your other components), most likely be louder. A Sycthe Ninja with a Nexus fan will produce lower temps and less noise than their single 120mm WC system.

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 Post subject: Re: Talk Me Out Of It
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:53 am 
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Rusty075 wrote:
warriorpoet wrote:
So, talk me out of it.


Ok...

It is probably not going to be any quieter than an aircooled system would be, and it will (depending upon your other components), most likely be louder. A Sycthe Ninja with a Nexus fan will produce lower temps and less noise than their single 120mm WC system.

... and also be 1/4 the price.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:15 am 
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Location: Los Angeles, CA - Folding for SPCR
Without a doubt i'd say ditch the watercooling system and stick with air.
I was stuck making this exact same decision with my build a month ago trying to balance the pros and cons (granted using selected parts in the wc loop, not a kit).
To me it ended up make no sense to go with watercooling for 3 main reasons: Its more expensive, its harder to deal with, and the cooling/noise performance isnt any better. Especially if you cool everything with a single 120mm radiator, you're not going to be able to undervolt the fan as much.
The single yate loon, with the noise caused by the turbulence from pushing through the radiator, plus the pump noise, will not be any quieter than a Ninja with an undervolted nexus, a board with a passive nb, and an undervolted vf700 on the video card, which is the rig i ended up going with (using an xp-120 instead of a ninja, but ill probably change that soon) and i could not be happier. All of my fans are wired into a multichannel zalman fan controller and i almost never turn them up (even with an overclocked dual core athlon).
Best of all, my entire cooling setup (XP-120, Nexus 120mm, Yateloon 120mm (case fan), vf-700) only cost me about 100 bucks.
If you really want to watercool though, get a zalman reserator to cool the cpu and gpu, use a passive nb board and put a soft-mounted, undervolted nexus at the rear of the case to give a little airflow over the electrical circutry.
For reference the rig im talking about here is listed under "Main Rig"
(BTW what components are you planning on putting in this system)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:16 pm 
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Location: USA
teknerd wrote:
Without a doubt i'd say ditch the watercooling system and stick with air.
[snip]
(BTW what components are you planning on putting in this system)


Planned Upgrade:
Mobo: trusty ABit AN8 Ultra
CPU: Opteron 170
HDD: Samsung P120 250Gb
PSU: Antec Neo HE500 (already have it)
VGA: ATI x1800xt 512Mb/ R580 equivalent
Case: Antec P180 (waiting patiently by)
RAM: 2Gb G.Skill PC3200 CAS 2.0
Planned fans: 1x 80mm in PSU, 2x Yate Loon 120mm @ 5-7v

It'll be pretty hot loud when I OC unless I resort to our friend in the faucet, hence the defection to liquid.

I'm in the process of exploring other options through Danger Den's online configurator as well, so this is by no means a done deal.

Current rig pre-ugrade:
Mobo: trusty ABit AN8 Ultra
CPU: A64 3200+ @ 2.4GHz w/ SI-120/Nexus combo (also cooles the ABit Silent OTES radiator)
HDD: Maxtor DiamondMax9 80Gb (LOUD)
PSU: Antec Neo HE500
Video: Leadtek 6800GT @ 400/1100 w/ NV Silencer 5 Rev.3
Case: Antec SLK3000B
RAM: 1GB Corsair ValueSelect PC3200
Fans: 80mm in PSU, 72mm in AC Silencer, 2x 120mm (1x Tri-cool @ 9v, 1x Nexus @ 8-12v uGuru controlled).

Is it quiet? Yes. Can I still hear it? Yes. Can I make it significantly quieter without sacrificing performance with my current setup? No.

I'm planning on another radiator running passively in the front-top location in the P180, for a total of two, to benefit from the negative pressure draw and provide dedicated cooling to the VGA. I am nearly positive this setup will cool better than air, the question is what components to choose to best take advantage of the airflow in this high performance (read: high heat) system.

As you can see, the plan is to loose one fan (VGA) and undervolt the others further in a case with better acoustic/thermal properties than what I am currently using. I am as close to the pinacle of air cooling performance as I plan to be with my current rig, and there is no logical reason to upgrade my cooling to a Ninja or V-1 Ultra to gain 1-5C, instead I have decided to jump to a technology that, in my opinion, has considerably more potential for quiet and performance, the Holy Grail I've been chasing for the past few years.

As an example, here's what my fan setup would look like for me to be satisfied with air cooling in the P180: 2x Yate Loon 120mm @5v exhaust, 1x Yate Loon @ 8-12v (uGuru controlled) CPU and OTES cooling, 1x 80mm fan (assuming VF700Cu or V-1 Ultra) GPU, 1x 80mm fan PSU. Contrast that with the above watercooling plan and the noise differenial should become faily obvious. Also note that with the air cooling components added (SCNJ-1000, V-1 Ultra, Swiftech BGA sinks, etc.), the price differential lessens.

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Last edited by warriorpoet on Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:02 pm 
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Location: USA
Interesting self configured kit, let me know how it stacks up in the above system:

CPU: Danger Den TDX Block
VGA: Danger Den Maze4
Chipset: Danger Den Maze4
Fitting: 3/8 OD
Additional: Series 2 GPU tiedown
Pump+Reservoir: Swiftech MCRES-1000P
Radiator: Swiftech MCR120 x2
Misc.: 90 degree fittings x4
10ft. Tygon
15 clamps
Swiftech HydrX
Swiftech Copper BGA Ramsinks

$363.93 all in (except the water :P )

Any suggestions?

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Last edited by warriorpoet on Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, CA - Folding for SPCR
I'd avoid a chipset block and use a heatpipe based cooler instead. chipset water blocks tend to be more restrictive in the loop in low flow systems (which yours will likely be if you undervolt your pump to keep it quiet).
Also, try to avoid using 90 degree elbows. They too restrict the flow and reduce the cooling efficiency.
Some people around here tend to like the black ice rads because they tend to work fairly well with lower pressure fans (because the fins are spaced further apart). Also, the csp mag pumps are supposed to be fairly quiet from what i have read. I'd recommend searching through the watercooling forums for advice on what radiator and pump to use.
Otherwise i'd say it looks like a pretty good setup.

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Main Rig: X2-4200+ | XP-120 | A8N-SLI Premium | 2GB RAM | XFX 6600GT w/VF700 | 74GB Raptor & 320GB 3200JD | P180 | SmartPower II 500W | 2x Dell 1704FPV (Digital)
Media Center: Athlon XP-M 2500+ @ 2.2GHz | ALX800 w/92mm Panaflo | 1GB RAM | 40GB WD | SLK3000B | Modulated, Fan-Swapped 380S PSU


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:40 pm 
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Posts: 323
Location: USA
teknerd wrote:
I'd avoid a chipset block and use a heatpipe based cooler instead. chipset water blocks tend to be more restrictive in the loop in low flow systems (which yours will likely be if you undervolt your pump to keep it quiet).
Also, try to avoid using 90 degree elbows. They too restrict the flow and reduce the cooling efficiency.
Some people around here tend to like the black ice rads because they tend to work fairly well with lower pressure fans (because the fins are spaced further apart)...
...Otherwise i'd say it looks like a pretty good setup.


I think I'll need the NB block due to the reduced airflow in the case, also, the Maze4 block really isn't that restrictive from what I gather.

The 90 degree elbows appear to be a necessary evil with the GPU block, unfortunately. I think I'll need two (the others are spares).

I've not heard a lot about the Black Ice rads, but I have heard the Swiftechs are good high flow units with fairly good airflow characteristics, I'll have to bone up a bit on that. Of course, from what I gather the Thermochill PA120.1s are the "bestest", but they're $85 a piece. :shock:

Thanks for your help!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:34 pm
Posts: 20
warriorpoet wrote:
Of course, from what I gather the Thermochill PA120.1s are the "bestest", but they're $85 a piece. :shock:

I am currently running a Thermochill PA 120.3 and one major advantage to the "oversized" rad is that about 70% of the time I can run it passively, only turning on the fans when absolutely necessary (i.e., gaming).
Also, the lower fin density allows for slower, lower cfm fans to be effectively used.
You pay more upfront, but the money is well spent, IMO.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:27 pm
Posts: 341
Location: Sweden
warriorpoet wrote:
As an example, here's what my fan setup would look like for me to be satisfied with air cooling in the P180: 2x Yate Loon 120mm @5v exhaust, 1x Yate Loon @ 8-12v (uGuru controlled) CPU and OTES cooling, 1x 80mm fan (assuming VF700Cu or V-1 Ultra) GPU, 1x 80mm fan PSU. Contrast that with the above watercooling plan and the noise differenial should become faily obvious. Also note that with the air cooling components added (SCNJ-1000, V-1 Ultra, Swiftech BGA sinks, etc.), the price differential lessens.

Seems to me like you've already made up your mind. But I think you can do better. E.g: get active fan control for all fans and let Nexus exhaust fans spin under 200 rpm most of the time. I second Rusty and MikeC.

warriorpoet wrote:
Planned fans: 1x 80mm in PSU, 2x Yate Loon 120mm @ 5-7v

That won't be very quiet, with 5-7 V through rads. The air solution will be quieter than that. To beat a well designed air alternative you'll need better rads with bigger cooling area and extremely undervolted top notch fans. I use 2 x 4412's @ 3.5 V (unless gaming or such) on my rads and they alone make more noise than my whole air cooled A64 machine does when I sit here internetting. Have you considered using large passive radiator(s)? If you succeed with truly isolating the pump it could deliver that Holy Grail quiet for sure.

warriorpoet wrote:
Single radiator not as effective as 2x or 3x units (but quieter, and I can always add another later)

Where does this come from? This debate about more or fewer fans should be over by now.


I'd say go air or get a cut-no-corners superbly ass-kicking water system. You'll likely regret opting for some half-assed w/c, thus ending up with the worst of two worlds.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Posts: 323
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snutten wrote:
...get active fan control for all fans and let Nexus exhaust fans spin under 200 rpm most of the time. I second Rusty and MikeC.


I have active fan control throguh uGuru, but it's certrainly not that radical. 200 rpm is virually zero airflow. At the very least, my mobo needs the air.

snutten wrote:
That won't be very quiet, with 5-7 V through rads. The air solution will be quieter than that. To beat a well designed air alternative you'll need better rads with bigger cooling area and extremely undervolted top notch fans. I use 2 x 4412's @ 3.5 V (unless gaming or such) on my rads and they alone make more noise than my whole air cooled A64 machine does when I sit here internetting. Have you considered using large passive radiator(s)? If you succeed with truly isolating the pump it could deliver that Holy Grail quiet for sure.


Only one fan will directly suck air through a radiator. Nothing will be force-feeding it. The whole concept is to let negative case pressure do the work, especially in the passive rad at the front of the case. The plan is to have only the two rear exhaust fans (rear and top) running at 5v, the rear pulling air through a radiator, the "blowhole" pulling air over the motherboard components, both pulling cool air from the front over a passive radiator. Everything will be soft mounted. Fan noise should be, minimally, far less than standard P180 operation, idealy, virtually silent.

What better internal rads would you suggest? I am also considering Thermochill's 120.1; have you a recommendation on that?

I am planning on running 2x 5v Yate Loon 120mm, what's better/quieter than that?

Passive is out, unfortunately, due to space and $ constraints. Although nice, those impressive Knovect-O-Matics are awefully pricey. ;)

snutten wrote:
warriorpoet wrote:
Single radiator not as effective as 2x or 3x units (but quieter, and I can always add another later)

Where does this come from? This debate about more or fewer fans should be over by now.


Where did I mention the number of fans mounted to the radiators? I was referring to the size of the radiator (i.e. a radiator with mounting points for 1x 120mm or 2-3x 120mm fans), not the amount of fans I'd be running on it, a point aluded to earlier in your response ("...better rads with bigger cooling area..."). Again, any radiator must be mounted in-case due to space constraints.

snutten wrote:
I'd say go air or get a cut-no-corners superbly ass-kicking water system. You'll likely regret opting for some half-assed w/c, thus ending up with the worst of two worlds.


I believe, naively perhaps, that the above spec, perhaps with additional tweaks, accomplishes both extreme quiet and superior (to air) performance. With 2x 120mm radiators, a high performance CPU, GPU and Chipset block I expect better system temps all around, not necessarily for any one component. In other words, my CPU may gain a degree or two (going dual core, I expect it anyway), but I should see significant temp drops for my NF4 northbridge, GPU and case as less heated air is spread around. Is this flawed thinking?

Currently I get very good temps on my CPU (26-44c w/ SI-120 on an A64 3200+ @2.4 GHz), marginal temps with my passive Q-OTES cooler (37-47c), and fairly good temps for my VGA (Leadtek 6800GT w/ NV Silencer 5 Rev. 3 51-71c). Am I mistaken that my VGA temps, at least, will drop significantly?

Remember, I'm upgrading to a newer (hotter) card at the same time, something in the 7800GTX/x1800xt range.

Maybe I'll start another thread...

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ATCS840/ Seasonic X-750/ 2500k 4.4 GHz (Koolance CPU-370)/ Gigabyte z68xp-ud4/ eVGA 570 865,1730,1950 (Koolance VID-580)/ 8Gb G.Skill DDR3 1866/ Corsair Force 3 120Gb, Samsung 470 128 Gb, Scorpio Black 750 2.5" (Quiet Drive)/ EK DCP-2.2 (res., gel-stuff)/ XSPC RX360, Swiftech MCR220QP/ 3 Scythe GT ~300-550RPM, 3 NB Multi-frame ~400-600RPM, 3 230mm 300RPM-> Lamptron FC-4/ Akasa AcoustiPack


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:08 pm 
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Posts: 341
Location: Sweden
warriorpoet wrote:
Only one fan will directly suck air through a radiator. Nothing will be force-feeding it. The whole concept is to let negative case pressure do the work, especially in the passive rad at the front of the case. The plan is to have only the two rear exhaust fans (rear and top) running at 5v, the rear pulling air through a radiator, the "blowhole" pulling air over the motherboard components, both pulling cool air from the front over a passive radiator.


Just remember when you undervolt a fan it loses static pressure faster than free flow cfm. The fan on the rad may end up pulling close to no air. Also, having a rad in the intake heats up the mobo you said needed to be cooled. Why not have both rads on blowout? Does that fit?

warriorpoet wrote:
Everything will be soft mounted. Fan noise should be, minimally, far less than standard P180 operation, idealy, virtually silent.

Those Papst fans I talked about are considered to be very quiet at low voltages. I have them soft mounted with shrouds in a sound isolated case. Who knows what tricks you have up your sleeve but you had better believe me when I say the rad fins add significantly to the noise. Thats why even at 3.5 V, under 400 rpm, I can hear them. Don't get me wrong. That w/c machine of mine is really quiet. I'm just saying the air cooled one has it beaten.

warriorpoet wrote:
What better internal rads would you suggest? I am also considering Thermochill's 120.1; have you a recommendation on that?

I am planning on running 2x 5v Yate Loon 120mm, what's better/quieter than that?


I bought my w/c stuff more than three years ago. One Black Ice, one Innovatek rad. Both have far to tight fins in my opinion. Don't know much about newer rads. I hear the PA series are good.

When it comes to fans I think Nexus are reigning SPCR champions. Personally I love them and can confirm they undervolt nicely down to 50 rpm with a T-balancer and Attenuators. Now that you can buy them without that horrible orange colour there's no against.

warriorpoet wrote:
Passive is out, unfortunately, due to space and $ constraints. Although nice, those impressive Knovect-O-Matics are awefully pricey. ;)

You can get a huge radiator from a car tip at almost no cost. As to the space constraints; I hear you.

warriorpoet wrote:
Where did I mention the number of fans mounted to the radiators? I was referring to the size of the radiator (i.e. a radiator with mounting points for 1x 120mm or 2-3x 120mm fans), not the amount of fans I'd be running on it, a point aluded to earlier in your response ("...better rads with bigger cooling area...").

Doesn't matter if you refer to the rad area or the fan area. Bigger is better. At least not noisier.

warriorpoet wrote:
... accomplishes both extreme quiet and superior (to air) performance. With 2x 120mm radiators, a high performance CPU, GPU and Chipset block I expect better system temps all around, not necessarily for any one component. In other words, my CPU may gain a degree or two (going dual core, I expect it anyway), but I should see significant temp drops for my NF4 northbridge, GPU and case as less heated air is spread around. Is this flawed thinking?

I use a passive NB heatsink and a simple air duct to force some air through it. Some cardboard covering 1/2 of the rad in the back forcing a miniscule amount of cool air over the heatsink before it's blown out. But you should do very fine I think and can certainly expect better temps for your video card. Not easy to cool monster GPUs with a Zalman.

But I can't see the super quiet thing happen. I already told you how my two setups compare. To beat my 3.5 V Papsts you need more rad area. Otherwise the fans spin up to cool sufficiently. I have an alu case with copper plates glued on the inside. Some water passes this outer cooling circuit through aluminium profiles attached to the copper plates, thus making the whole case act as a big heatsink. Sound and heat isolated on the inside of course. This a rather elaborate system with almost everything a nerd could ask for. The Eheim 1048 touches nothing solid, hanging in silicone strings. And still the computer is not silent. The Fan-O-Matic can't spin the fans any slower or they stall. When I install a T-balancer I expect it to be on par with the air machine, except when they are idling. You see, the air cooled one idles with a total of 3 Nexus 120 fans, each spinning under 200 rpm, and one ducted PSU Nexus 80 at about 4 V (Seagate model starts at ~4V) in a sound-proofed case - and it's f***ing hard to beat even with a well designed w/c system.

How much is gained by moving the heat a couple of centimeters to blow it away through rads instead of a Scythe? I think it basically depends on how big the rads are.

I dunno why I sit here all night repeating myself but I can at least hope you find at least some of my advice not complete folly. Here's my past best talking you out of it if you should be interested:
Life with watercooling is like prison. Go Air.
Water cooling future
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:40 am 
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snutten wrote:
How much is gained by moving the heat a couple of centimeters to blow it away through rads instead of a Scythe? I think it basically depends on how big the rads are.


Good point, I had not considered that.

snutten wrote:
I dunno why I sit here all night repeating myself but I can at least hope you find at least some of my advice not complete folly. Here's my past best talking you out of it if you should be interested:
Life with watercooling is like prison. Go Air.
Water cooling future
More


snutten: thank you much for your time, effort and thought. I do not consider any of your responses approaching folly. Perhaps it's my fault for dragging this out for too long, but I really wanted to approach this concept from every angle.

This is not the first time I have seriously considered water cooling, and I dare say it will not be the last, but for now you all have convinced me to stick with high-po air cooling components. The major point I had not considered was air turbulance noise through the radiator fins. The pump noise was going to be adressed by enclosure/suspension, water turbulance by proper bleeding.

Perhaps I'll wait until I can afford a large external radiator that can be attached to the exterior of the case, like a Konvect-O-Matic. Then again, I'll have to figure out a different way to attach the pump...and the saga continues... ;)

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ATCS840/ Seasonic X-750/ 2500k 4.4 GHz (Koolance CPU-370)/ Gigabyte z68xp-ud4/ eVGA 570 865,1730,1950 (Koolance VID-580)/ 8Gb G.Skill DDR3 1866/ Corsair Force 3 120Gb, Samsung 470 128 Gb, Scorpio Black 750 2.5" (Quiet Drive)/ EK DCP-2.2 (res., gel-stuff)/ XSPC RX360, Swiftech MCR220QP/ 3 Scythe GT ~300-550RPM, 3 NB Multi-frame ~400-600RPM, 3 230mm 300RPM-> Lamptron FC-4/ Akasa AcoustiPack


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