It is currently Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:02 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Silenx vs Panaflo at Identical Flow Rates
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:19 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 110
Perhaps this entry should be longer or more formal, such as a full review, but I am a little short of time.

There has been a great deal of interest expressed in the Silenx fan, but not much objective information is available for it yet, as best I can tell.

Let me say at the outset that one of the biggest problems we have in this forum is that the quest for very low noise levels involves evaluation of phenomena that are at the limits of human sense perception. Measurement of these phenomena is very difficult, requiring very sophisticated and extremely expensive equipment, as Mike's work with the University of Vancouver has shown.

I have recently acquired a device for measuring airflow, the AirFlow 6000VT (http://www.airflow.co.uk/scripted/detai ... r=71839701). This is not an ideal instrument for measuring low airflow states, but seems useful. The results, which I have gotten with it, have been consistent.

As a first step, I measured airflow for three 80mm low-noise fans at 12.3 volts: Vantec Stealth SF8025L (0.10 amps, airflow=210 ft/min), Panaflo FBA08A12L (0.10 amps, 190 ft/min), and Silenx 825-15-20 (by Ahanix, 0.84 amps, 125 ft/min). As pointed out many times before (most thoroughly in gmJamez' wonderful post, "Choosing Fans, A Scientific Approach", http://xover.mud.at/jamez/fanspec2/fanspec2.xls), there is a tremendous variation in airflow at 12 volts from different fans on the market. To some extent, quiet fans are just low airflow fans. The results, which I obtained with the Vantec, Panaflo and Silenx at 12.3 volts, support that idea.

Next, I adjusted voltage to the Panaflo and the Silenx, using FanMate controllers, until airflow for each fan was 110 ft/min. The choice of this value was arbitrary, but was based on the likelihood that reliable airflow measurements could be made, and this level of fan function is likely to be employed in everyday use.

At isoflow=110 ft/min, voltages were 6.73v for the Panaflo and 9.0v for the Silenx.

Extended, careful listening to the fans revealed the following: The Panaflo has a faint clicking, a hum and a tiny bit of whine. The Silenx has almost no click, but there is a slight buzz/hum which is probably due mainly to air turbulence. Both fans are extremely quiet, but the Silenx is quieter. This is mostly due to the non-complex nature of the sound it makes, and the sound appears to be at relatively low, poorly penetrating frequencies.

A major caveat: These were only 2 fans, one of each. There is likely to be significant variation between different samples in a batch of fans, which are ostensibly identical due to subtle variations in manufacturing. The results, which I obtained, could have just been due to sampling error.

So, if these results are generalizable, is the obvious conclusion that everyone should buy Silenx fans? Not necessarily. The Silenx is an intrinsically low-flow fan. The Silenx' top end of performance is only 66% of the Panaflo's. In the event that a heavy heat load is imposed on the system, the Silenx may lack the ability to ramp up to meet demand. The Silenx is not widely available (yet), and the cost and difficulty in obtaining the fan may not be worth it.

Another intrinsically low-flow 80mm fan, the NMB 3110KL-04W-B19 (0.06 amps), shows airflow at 12.3v of 124 ft/min, and at the isoflow=110 ft/min level uses 10.68 volts. This fan is slightly but definitely noisier than the Silenx and the Panaflo, but it is still relatively quiet. (I am using 2 of them at 12v in current systems, with no complaints at all.) The NMB has a more pronounced buzzing sound up close. SVC is basically giving these fans away at $2.50 each ($1.85 each in batches of 10), and it is a 3-wire fan, which allows for fan speed monitoring. (The Panaflo and Silenx are 2-wire fans). Although none of these fans are costly, the NMB is easily cheapest.

In summary, options for low noise fans are quite good. Among the low-flow, super-quiet fans, Silenx, Panaflo and NMB are all reasonable considerations. Choice will depend on system need, availability and (to a small degree) budget.

John Coyle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:40 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:32 pm
Posts: 399
Location: San Diego, CA
I noticed in the Panaflows I got yesterday, 4 types. They tend to make the clicking noise at lower voltage, but then these are just a small sample. Also, I guess even though all of these are wired with 3 pins, the tach pin is not active on the models that don't support it.

The NMBs I've tested seem to be smooth overall in wide voltage range with a slight click.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:14 pm 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:27 pm
Posts: 1465
Location: Reading.England.EU
John - a really interesting approach. I like the idea of comparing fan noise at the same airflow!

Your comments also reminded me of wine tasting: "the limits of human sense perception" (as well as the difficulties to actually measure this stuff in a repeatable way) indicates to me we are indeed concerned with an individual's judgement and side by side comparisons is the best we can hope for.

You mention the potentional limitations because of the sample size, as well as "Extended, careful listening to the fans revealed the following: The Panaflo has a faint clicking, a hum and a tiny bit of whine. " One thing I have noticed with 3 Panaflo 80mm L1A I have is that the noise varies depending on the fan orientation. It started out from a daft notion that I should 'burn in' my new fans at 12V before deploying them at slower speed. I decided to set them vertically on each edge for 5 minutes, followed by each edge for 10 minutes. (So a 1 hour run-in for the bearing.) What I noticed as I rotated them is on some edges they got noisier - almost like a rubbing/brushing sound. So now I mark my fans which way up is quieter - sad but true.

_________________
2009/Oct: Jetway JNC81-LF * 4850e naked under fanless Xigmatek Apache * Antec mini Skeleton w/Nexus 120mm PWM fan * Delta 90W brick w/Skeleton DC-DC board * WD2500BEVT 250Gb blue


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:19 pm
Posts: 3
johnc, in the middle of your post the Vantec Stealth seems to vanish suddenly. What is the result that you got from it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Silenx vs Panaflo at Identical Flow Rates
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:38 pm
Posts: 667
Location: Chicago, IL
johnc wrote:
... The Panaflo has a faint clicking, a hum and a tiny bit of whine. The Silenx has almost no click, but there is a slight buzz/hum which is probably due mainly to air turbulence. Both fans are extremely quiet, but the Silenx is quieter... A major caveat: These were only 2 fans, one of each... The results, which I obtained, could have just been due to sampling error...


Thanks John Coyle for that nice review! For what it's worth, I also obtain the same results from direct comparison of these 80mm Panaflo and "SilenX" fans.

The fans I am calling "SilenX" here are of course not made by SilenX, but are actually Jamicon (Kaimei Electronic Corp) model# JF0825B1E - which I am fairly certain is the identical fan used in the ExoticPC and SilenX 400W 14dbA power supplies (product code: "JF" = main series code, "08"=80mm frame width, "25" = 25mm frame thickness, "B" = Ball Bearing, "1" = 12V, "E" = Extra Low Speed). If you are a PC builder interested in ordering in a larger quantity, you can order these from Jamicon directly in cartons of 100 at a unit price of around $5.30 or better. Anyone interested in the Jamicon line of fans can read about them at the website address here.

8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:38 pm
Posts: 667
Location: Chicago, IL
digitalix wrote:
Don't forget to mention the 2 month lead time :)


A couple suppliers around me have said they have some stock of this specific model of Jamicon fan (I received mine through a hardware trade). So if there are any other professional PC builders out there are interested in finding/using this particularly quiet model of Jamicon fan, you might want to check with your own local wholesale hardware suppliers too, just in case they might have some in stock available for you right away. Of course, you can always work directly with Jamicon as well - who are well known to be very friendly and trustworthy.

8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:36 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11829
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Nice comparative method John! Reminiscent of my HS comparison method. ;) One question: any idea how your ft/min spec compares with CFM? If Panaflo's spec is assumed to be accurate, 24 cfm = 190 ft/min; the conversion factor is 7.9. So your 110 f/min corresponds to ~14CFM. 6.7V & the Panaflo is still pushing that much air -- that's pretty good, and right on the money with the fan airflow/noise prediction charts!

An aside to the question about the Vantec -- my guess is John put it aside because it really wasn't worth comparing. I have a couple of Vantec samples, and while the 80mm is the best of the bunch (92mm is terrible, just awful), it really doesn't ramp down in speed gracefully like a good Panaflo does. Not in the same league at all. Yes, I acknowledge I've heard better & worse samples of the Panaflo, but in all honesty I've heard many dozens, if not a hundred Panaflo samples -- and at most a dozen of any other model -- so my sampling info is biased against the Panaflo.

Anyway, John, nice work! Will have to get you more samples to test!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Silenx vs Panaflo at Identical Flow Rates
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:28 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 110
Sorry for not filling in the details on the Vantec Stealth, but I had intended to focus on Silenx vs Panaflo.

Since you are interested in that information, here it is, together with isoflow=110 ft/min results for the Papst.

(1) At 12.3 volts: Vantec Stealth SF8025L (0.10 amps, airflow=210 ft/min). At isoflow=110 ft/min, voltage = 6.44v. This sample of the Vantec Stealth vibrates significantly on my tabletop. Holding the Vantec and the Silenx, both at isoflow=110, shows the Vantec to have more frame vibration. Listening to the Vantec reveals a coarse, gritty, slightly grinding buzz. This fan, undervolted, would probably be OK if suspended. It is by no means noisy, but it is just not as quiet as the Silenx, Panaflo or NMB at isoflow=110. It has the greatest cooling power at voltage=12.3v, though.

(2) At 12.3 volts: Papst 8412 NGL (0.45 amps, airflow=165 ft/min). At isoflow=110, voltage = 9.48 volts. This sample also vibrates significantly on the desktop. Holding the Papst and the Silenx in each hand, the Papst shows more frame vibration. Listening to the Papst reveals the clicking noise that has been described many times in this forum, a sound like a stick being dragged along a picket fence by a bicycle rider. There is also a definite "machine buzzing" sound. At isoflow=110, this fan is not as quiet as the Silenx. It still a very quiet fan. In terms of peak cooling power, it falls below the Vantec Stealth and the Panaflo, but above the Silenx and the NMB.

This post, together with my first post in the thread, lists information for a total of 5 low-noise fans: Silenx, Panaflo, NMB, Papst and Vantec. Each of these fans has strengths and weaknesses. Each of them can be made to work with at least reasonable success in a quiet system, but site-specific factors must be examined to make the best choice.

John Coyle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Silenx vs Panaflow
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:42 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 110
Very sorry for the Papst typo. Amps for that fan should be 0.045 amps, not 0.45 amps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:24 pm 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:27 pm
Posts: 1465
Location: Reading.England.EU
digitalix wrote:
Pop open the fan assembly on the Papst and compare it to any other fan on the market, you'll notice the ball bearings ...
Nah, the NGL is Sleeve (the NL would be ball). But you are right - Papst MTBFs will probably outlast me, let alone my PC :)

johnc wrote:
Holding the Papst and the Silenx in each hand, the Papst shows more frame vibration.
That is disappointing for the Papst - they have those individual balancing 'bits'. Did yours fall out?

_________________
2009/Oct: Jetway JNC81-LF * 4850e naked under fanless Xigmatek Apache * Antec mini Skeleton w/Nexus 120mm PWM fan * Delta 90W brick w/Skeleton DC-DC board * WD2500BEVT 250Gb blue


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:32 am
Posts: 43
Location: Florida USA
digitalix wrote:
Quiet fans are almost always just that - low airflow fans. With the exception of Verax fans, which have a unique design, almost all the other fans are...well...identical.
Hope that info is of any use to you people :)


But not all low flow fans are quiet. :D :D I have some noisy low flows in my collection.

Dan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:00 am
Posts: 806
Location: Germany
Papst seem to vibrate because they use stronger magnets.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Silenx vs Panaflo at Identical Flow Rates
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 2:17 pm 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:58 am
Posts: 152
Location: Fairfax, Virginia, USA
al bundy wrote:
The fans I am calling "SilenX" here are of course not made by SilenX, but are actually Jamicon (Kaimei Electronic Corp) model# JF0825B1E - which I am fairly certain is the identical fan used in the ExoticPC and SilenX 400W 14dbA power supplies (product code: "JF" = main series code, "08"=80mm frame width, "25" = 25mm frame thickness, "B" = Ball Bearing, "1" = 12V, "E" = Extra Low Speed). If you are a PC builder interested in ordering in a larger quantity, you can order these from Jamicon directly in cartons of 100 at a unit price of around $5.30 or better. Anyone interested in the Jamicon line of fans can read about them at the website address here.



The question is, then, is the fan that johnc measured the Ahanix Silenx fan that is for sale here, or is it a fan pulled from a Silenx system that could be Jamicon or could be Ahanix (or in some wierd way that digitalix mentioned elsewhere, both!). Colorcases also sells the Silenx PSU, by the way. I think (though I am not sure) that Colorcases was purchased by Ahanix, which would explain their selling the product as well, using an Ahanix Silenx fan. Just a guess, though....

EDIT: Props to johnc for this very useful post! johnc, if indeed this was the Ahanix vareity, commercially-available Silenx fan, then you've sold me!

_________________
"Just because I work for the federal government doesn't mean that I'm an expert on cockroaches." -- F"S"M


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Fan Source: Silenx
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 3:39 pm 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 110
You've got me sussed. The Silenx fan used in these tests was from Colorcase.

The markings on the fan are: Ahanix Fan, Model 825-15-20, 12V, 0.07A, 0.84W, Silenx, Double Ball bearings, Assembled by Kaimei for ExoticPC.

One of the big issues this Forum deals with again and again is rebadging. Who's making what for whom, and will it be the same next week, seem to be questions we never escape.

Oh, the Web imitates life. We are pretty certain of the identity of the mother...

John Coyle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 4:21 pm 
Offline
-- Vendor --

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:41 am
Posts: 39
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Do not confuse the SilenX branded products on our site with those on Ahanix, ColorCase or ExoticPC. We are in no way affiliated with ExoticPC and our products are different from theirs. We no longer use the Jamicon fans, model JF0825B1E, which is rated 15.9 dBA @ 1m and 19.1 CFM, in our power supplies. We've replaced the fans with hypro bearing fans from Jaro Components, rated 14.0 dBA @ 1m and 20.5 CFM, tweaked the voltage regulator, included ISODAMP fan mounts among various other enhancements to differentiate our product line from ExoticPC or ColorCase, both of which are run by Ahanix. I would just like to make that clear.

_________________
info@SilenX.com
http://www.SilenX.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 2:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:38 pm
Posts: 667
Location: Chicago, IL
silenx wrote:
...We no longer use the Jamicon fans, model JF0825B1E, which is rated 15.9 dBA @ 1m and 19.1 CFM, in our power supplies. We've replaced the fans with hypro bearing fans from Jaro Components, rated 14.0 dBA @ 1m and 20.5 CFM, tweaked the voltage regulator, included ISODAMP fan mounts among various other enhancements to differentiate our product line from ExoticPC or ColorCase, both of which are run by Ahanix. I would just like to make that clear, my apologies for ExoticPC's behavior in confusing the general public.


That is very helpful, thank you for posting this information. The ongoing development of your products will be very interesting for us here to keep our eyes (and ears) on, as they keep evolving from the original SilenX designs.

SilenX, do you have time for a few questions please?

When you were still with ExoticPC you were marketing the 400W 14dbA product as having a max noise spec (under full sustained load) of 14dbA. Does this newer revised version of this product maintain this precise noise spec as well? If so, was the fan changed-out due to supplier considerations only, or are there substantial differences between these fans that you could directly advise us about? Also, will you be selling these Jaro Components fans separately on your site?

Lastly, you said above that the new Jaro Components fan carries specs of 14.0 dBA and 20.5 CFM. When I look at the Jaro Components page at http://www.jaro1.com/indextherm.htm I find one similar fan item (code is ADO812DX-A70GL, see 9 lines up from bottom of p.5 of that document). However, its reported noise spec is 15.0, and not 14.0. Can you please clarify this discrepancy for us - was this a typo in your message above, or am I just possibly overlooking the correct fan item on that page?

Thanks in advance for answering any/all of these questions SilenX, much appreciated!

8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 8:34 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:58 am
Posts: 152
Location: Fairfax, Virginia, USA
silenx wrote:
Do not confuse the SilenX branded products on our site with those on Ahanix, ColorCase or ExoticPC. We are in no way affiliated with ExoticPC and our products are different from theirs. We no longer use the Jamicon fans, model JF0825B1E, which is rated 15.9 dBA @ 1m and 19.1 CFM, in our power supplies. We've replaced the fans with hypro bearing fans from Jaro Components, rated 14.0 dBA @ 1m and 20.5 CFM, tweaked the voltage regulator, included ISODAMP fan mounts among various other enhancements to differentiate our product line from ExoticPC or ColorCase, both of which are run by Ahanix. I would just like to make that clear, my apologies for ExoticPC's behavior in confusing the general public.


Thanks for clearing that mud, silenx! I've been confused about this whole deal for a while now. And you definitely got that last part right. The folks at ExoticPC jump into this board now and then and just make my head spin with their insistence that everything fine, everything's the same, ours is the real silenx, ignore the man behind the curtain! Then there is the weird corporate relationship going on between Ahanix, ExoticPc, ColorCase, Kaimei (and Jamicon?).

So how come all of you are able to call your product Silenx?! Nobody's bothered to copyright the Silenx brandname? But even then, isn't there some law about similar branding from multiple producers?

BTW, I'm also interested in getting that Jaro fan retail. Will that every be possible? Thanks!

_________________
"Just because I work for the federal government doesn't mean that I'm an expert on cockroaches." -- F"S"M


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 9:57 am 
Offline
-- Vendor --

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:41 am
Posts: 39
Location: Los Angeles, CA
al bundy wrote:
When you were still with ExoticPC you were marketing the 400W 14dbA product as having a max noise spec (under full sustained load) of 14dbA. Does this newer revised version of this product maintain this precise noise spec as well? If so, was the fan changed-out due to supplier considerations only, or are there substantial differences between these fans that you could directly advise us about? Also, will you be selling these Jaro Components fans separately on your site?


Realistically, the max noise can go up to 17 dBA under maximum load and high ambient case temperatures (ambient case temp of 50C) on the ExoticPC version but in typical computer use, as long as the computer was in a well ventilated environment (ambient room temp of 25C), 14 dBA was the maximum value we got at 1m. The 14 dBA number was more or less an arbitrary number on the ExoticPC product, but we're now able to achieve similar or lower noise levels while improving the cooling aspect of the PSU in addition to providing less vibrational noise from the fan itself.

The fans were changed due to both supplier and performance differences between the two. For one, Ahanix forced Jamicon to cut the supply of the fans to us. Second, we did find this fan to perform better than the Jamicon fans. Two of the most obvious performance advantages we noticed was higher air flow and noticeable reduction in bearing vibrations. The hypro bearing is a similar concept of Panaflo's hydro bearings and basically allows for less friction between the fan shaft and the bearing itself with a pocket of lubricant. When combined with the fan isolation mounts, the only noise you do hear from the unit is air turbulence. It turns out you can decrease the noise from the turbulence significantly by removing the cover, but that doesn't necessitate to better cooling as it wouldn't direct the air optimally through the appropriate vent holes on the PSU casing. Regardless, we've done extensive testing with the new fan with FSP Group to make sure it does provide adequate airflow to the unit.

As for the sale of the fans by individually, they will be available shortly but initially with thermistors only. Please email us at info@silenx.com to inquire about orders if you're interested at this time.

al bundy wrote:
Lastly, you said above that the new Jaro Components fan carries specs of 14.0 dBA and 20.5 CFM. When I look at the Jaro Components page at http://www.jaro1.com/indextherm.htm I find one similar fan item (code is ADO812DX-A70GL, see 9 lines up from bottom of p.5 of that document). However, its reported noise spec is 15.0, and not 14.0. Can you please clarify this discrepancy for us - was this a typo in your message above, or am I just possibly overlooking the correct fan item on that page?


It's actually a typo on their specifications. The fan model is actually identical to one offered by Adda. You can check at http://www.addausa.com/specifications/70-80.pdf Jaro and Adda are both obtaining these fans from the same fan manufacturer in Taiwan. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to email us!

_________________
info@SilenX.com
http://www.SilenX.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 10:15 am 
Offline
-- Vendor --

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 3:41 am
Posts: 39
Location: Los Angeles, CA
jamoore9 wrote:
Thanks for clearing that mud, silenx! I've been confused about this whole deal for a while now. And you definitely got that last part right. The folks at ExoticPC jump into this board now and then and just make my head spin with their insistence that everything fine, everything's the same, ours is the real silenx, ignore the man behind the curtain! Then there is the weird corporate relationship going on between Ahanix, ExoticPc, ColorCase, Kaimei (and Jamicon?).

So how come all of you are able to call your product Silenx?! Nobody's bothered to copyright the Silenx brandname? But even then, isn't there some law about similar branding from multiple producers?

BTW, I'm also interested in getting that Jaro fan retail. Will that every be possible? Thanks!


-- EDITED -- The fans will be available for retail soon, if you are interested, feel free to drop us an email, info@silenx.com. I appreciate everyone's patience. If you need help with anything on how to silence your PC, our staff with years of experience will be available at all times to quickly respond.

-- In the interest of peace, NO asides and cheap shots against competitors will be tolerated. Any further contentiousness by either party to the other in this fracus will be banned from the SPCR forums. There will be no further warning. --

_________________
info@SilenX.com
http://www.SilenX.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group