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 Post subject: New SILENT computer - overly high temps?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Location: Slovenia
Hello. I have put togeter this system:
q9550
p5q pro
...
1 HD, 1 ssd, passive 5670 Ultimate, Seasonic X-400 (installed with mesh upwards as manufacturer suggests) and cpu cooler HR-02 run passively.
All in Solo case with 1 Noctua fan at the back 500 rpm.

The thing is SILENT.

Problem may be temps.
GPU rans over 70 C idle and goes over 100 C (at which point i stopped the test for fearing i dont fry something) when 100% stressed by some software. Heatsisnk for this card was reviewed as very good.
Prime95 small FFT test shoots up CPU temps to 76 C (idle around 45 C).

Are these temps safe? Note that CPU wont be fully utilized and games will be played only occasionaly.

If i change fan speed to 700 rpm, temps go down 5 C, but fan is more audiable (would same 500 rpm fan on heatsink be better option?).

Thermal paste is Artic Silver MX3. I reaplied it numerous time - vertical line, hoizontal line. No effect.

Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Everything that generates heat is passively cooled, so it dumps heat into the case, and there is almost no air flow through the case...big surprise that it runs hot.

There's no way to run that CPU under any sort load and not have the temps shoot up without active cooling or substantial case ventilation.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:00 pm 
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I would experiment with either an 800rpm slipstream, or other fans undervolted.

If there's a restrictive mesh grill over the fan, that's the primary source of noise, as it's causing a bit of turbulence (not sure of how your case is modded).

The Solo is very tight, and doesn't really offer killer airflow, so I'm not surprised the GPU is hot enough to bake some cookies. I would say experiment with undervolted fans in various placements to cool things down better. I have a 92mm fan that's running at 7v and completely silent, cooling my ATI4850 with an Accelero S1 on it.

Ducting your HR-02 to the exhaust might help you drop the temps a little more as well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:05 pm 
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WAY too much heat with barely any airflow !

At least speed up that exhaust... please ? (duct it to the CPU heatsink maybe ?)
Also, I'd duct the PSU to the front bezel with a kama bay (there is an example on the main site, look for P150 I think) and plug those holes in the back next to the PCI slots. That alone will make a big difference I think, since the cool air will be comming in through the front of the case, passing the hot components, before exiting, rather than going in through the PSU and back out the exhaust fan (air always takes the shortest least resistant path).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:13 pm 
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76 degree centigrade cpu temps will not harm the chip, it's not a problem.

those gpu temps could be an issue, tho.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Both chips (CPU and GPU) are close to their limits, but they are fine if a torture test doesn't create artifacts or hang the system. However, you might have a problem during the summer, with higher ambient temperatures.

I'd consider either speeding the back fan up permanently, or adding some sort of control (software or hardware—your choice) to make it go faster under load. This way the PC can stay silent outside of games/heavy computations.

Adding a CPU fan would also help, but only at the CPU side of things, and only slightly, since too little hot air is moved out of the case.

An opening below the GPU cooler at the back will help with GPU temperatures. If you haven't yet, try taking out a slot cover or two.

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 Post subject: Re: New SILENT computer - overly high temps?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:51 pm 
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AmonRaa wrote:
Are these temps safe? Note that CPU wont be fully utilized and games will be played only occasionaly.

If your system can survive at a 1 hour test with Prime95 (x4) and FurMark, they are safe (you have not said if GPU temp seems going to stabilize or not, when around 100°C).

However these temps are typical of such a system (I have a two years similar one, substantially less powerful and maybe cooler, with an E5400 and an Ultimate 4650, and my exhaust fan is almost always stopped).

AmonRaa wrote:
If i change fan speed to 700 rpm, temps go down 5 C, but fan is more audiable (would same 500 rpm fan on heatsink be better option?).

I guess you have the case very near to you: if it's true, no 12cm fan over 500rpm may be said "silent" (and the Noctua isn't the best one in this respect).

AmonRaa wrote:
Any suggestions?

Does the system run substantially cooler if the side panel is removed?

You probably may need an intake fan, but the Solo needs to be modded to mount a 12cm one, while the intakes are maybe a bit far from the video card to run 80 or 92mm ones at 500-700rpm.

Alternatively you can put a fan directly on the VGA, which seems the most problematic element.

Anyway, best candidates are the usual ones: Scythe S-Flex, Slipstream, Noctua R8 (the B9 is IMVHO too much audible even if dialed down), or Nexus RSCF. Nexus and Slipstream should not be placed horizontally (on the card, I mean).

Regards,
Luca


Last edited by quest_for_silence on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:13 am 
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What's your case temps? Removing the panel migth help, but it's not a permanent solutions I think.

As above mentioned, low case air flow will cook passive heat sinks - adding just the tiniest flow will move heat away from the sinks (lowering CPU/GPU temps, but might increase case temp).

Also, the passive PSU relies on some kind of flow (right?), and as mentioned is fed fresh air from the back, and dumps heat into the case, and the almost a short circuited vent path right out the back fan. Ducting the PSU might cook it, I'm not sure, but might.

Suggestion:
    - put two intake fans in the front, gives better air flow than teh sole one in the back.
    - put slow fans on both heat sinks


Now your case will be better ventilated, PSU is ventilated out of the case, CPU/GPU will get lower temps. Possibly still as silent as before, but there are no short-cuts here. Ducting the CPU out of the back will of course help even more.

/d

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:36 am 
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Why worry about temps in extreme test conditions you admit don't represent actual usage?
Quote:
The thing is SILENT... Note that CPU wont be fully utilized and games will be played only occasionaly.

Focus on what is important --

1. temps in idle & low load -- this is 90% of the time for most pc users.
2. temps in max game/app load -- check temps mid-way
3. keep an eye on temps in hot weather.

You might do is add a very slow spinning fan (500rpm) on the CPU. It will help all the temps w/ hardly any increase in noise. Try a Scythe slipstream or Nexus 120. Forget intake fan. Don't sweat the psu -- the load is not high enough to create much heat there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:47 am 
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MikeC wrote:
It will help all the temps

Why "all the temps"?

MikeC wrote:
Forget intake fan.

Why? Don't fanless things benefit from a tiny bit of fresh air?

Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:03 am 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
MikeC wrote:
Forget intake fan.

Why? Don't fanless things benefit from a tiny bit of fresh air?

Adding a front fan could create a zero-pressure case. I'm not sure that's a good thing. ;) Plus it would almost certainly break the silence, which is reason enough not to do it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:26 am 
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What is the room temp during these 45C/76C idle measurements? What are the other component temps (mobo, HDD)?

Just wondering how much of the baseline is from a hot summer day in a warm home...

Attach a low rpm fan to the cpu cooler opposite the case fan. The push/pull arrangement should drop your cpu idle temp and do wonders for your load temp.

Improving the cpu cooler circulation should also lessen the heat rise in the case and lower your gpu temps.

I'd start with that and then regroup if you need additional cooling.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:38 am 
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I agree with some of the other posts here, namely:
1. CPU load temperature is high, but not dangerous, and you won't get those conditions in normal use;
2. Intake fans are not needed, and they would make your system louder;
3. Open the slots below the graphic card, this should have a significant effect on GPU temps and should also lower CPU temps a bit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:08 pm
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Location: Slovenia
Thanx guys for replies.

I did some testing with Prime and Furmark (slots below gpu open):
cpu 77 degrees..few hours, stable
gpu 107 !!! no artifacts, stable...at 107 gpu downclocks to give it a little breathing room

side panel off:
cpu 63 degrees
no difference..ie 107 degrees and downclocks

side panel off + antec tricool pushing through heatsink on low (cant be in pull mode as heatsink is too close to exaust fan which in turn acts as pull fan):

cpu 50 degrees - thats more like it
gpu 91 degrees

side panel off + tricool high speed + exaust fan 700 rpm
cou 49 degrees (funny, thought there would be biger difference)
gpu 76 - difference showed here

Since Noctua is 18 cfm 5V (under 19 dbA/m) and SLIP STREAM SY1225SL12M at 5V is 24 cfm (18 dbA/m) best would be to replace Noctua and put another on CPU, right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:02 am 
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Adding a SlipStream will be better on the CPU due to the higher static pressure it generates (better for forcing air through the heatsink).

I'd leave the Noctua alone as the exhaust fan. It has a better bearing than the SlipStream, which is important at these low speeds.

Have you tried to open a slot or two below the GPU heatsink with the case closed? It should improve the GPU temperatures further.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:25 pm 
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To reiterate what I and others have said, you are placing your system under artificially high loads. Prime + Furmark is an extreme torture test which you most likely will never be able to reproduce in normal use. Although they are useful tools to evaluate the stability of a system, I don't think it is necessary to worry about temperatures under these conditions, particularly when your goal is silence. It may be reassuring to get lower temperatures, but you will also get an increase in noise, without adding any real benefit to your system. You have already achieved a good result with just a single fan.

Certainly, if you like throwing money away, you could try replacing the Noctua with the Slipstream as you suggested. Personally, I have not had good luck with Slipstreams, as the bearings dry out and they become noisy after a while, YMMV.

Alternatively, for further reductions in temperature, you could try making some ducts out of cardboard to direct and concentrate incoming and outgoing air to where it is most needed. This won't cost you anything and can be fun to experiment with. Unless you are planning to always use the computer with the case open, you should do your experiments with the case closed. Modding the case to open it up more is also an option, if you like metalwork.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:12 pm 
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The CPU temps are okay, you can't expect much better in a passive setup, the Q9550 is a pretty hot chip, especially once you begin to fully stress it. 76°C in Prime95 is still okay though. You shouldn't hit 70°C in normal heavy usage.
What you could do and what I have done in the past with 1-fan-setups and what may raise a few eyebrows here, is to turn around the exhaust fan and use it as an intake. I didn't notice any worsening of system temps when I ran it that way but CPU temps decreased by a couple of degrees.

Passive GPUs are always advertised by the manufacturer to require case airflow. Furmark is artificially stressing it, but idling at 70°C I'd suspect you *could* run into some heat-induced shutdowns in gaming sessions. If you don't plan on gaming, it would be fine idling at 70°C, the Radeon HD4850 I had idled at over 80°C with stock cooling.
If you do plan on gaming and you encounter issues, you could place a fan in a way that it blows directly on you graphics card. Best would be to simply attach it to the GPU heatsink with cable ties. Yes, that makes it not passive anymore, but you could use a big fan of your choosing and even at <500rpm it will decrease your GPU temps to a safe value.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Modo wrote:
I'd leave the Noctua alone as the exhaust fan. It has a better bearing than the SlipStream, which is important at these low speeds

I own both those fans: IMO, at 500rpm, the SS is far superior. Obviously in the long run a sleeve bearing should last noticeably less.

Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:47 pm 
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tim851 wrote:
What you could do and what I have done in the past with 1-fan-setups and what may raise a few eyebrows here, is to turn around the exhaust fan and use it as an intake. I didn't notice any worsening of system temps when I ran it that way but CPU temps decreased by a couple of degrees.

I've observed the same phenomenon in a NSK3480: but, after changing the heatsink, I've nevermore noticed it, so I suspect it may not be so univocal.

Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:52 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Modo wrote:
I'd leave the Noctua alone as the exhaust fan. It has a better bearing than the SlipStream, which is important at these low speeds

I own both those fans: IMO, at 500rpm, the SS is far superior. Obviously in the long run a sleeve bearing should last noticeably less.

I know the difference, I own both models as well. :) What I'm saying is, buying a second SS to swap the Noctua out might not be necessary in this system. The other proposed modifications should be enough.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:54 pm 
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AmonRaa wrote:
I did some testing with Prime and Furmark (slots below gpu open):
cpu 77 degrees..few hours, stable
gpu 107 !!! no artifacts, stable...at 107 gpu downclocks to give it a little breathing room

Mind you repeat this test (side panel on) using the TriCool on low as "temporary" (I mean you haven't proper apertures on the Solo, and you have not to secure it, just lean it on the front, maybe with duct tape) intake fan?

What about the temps and noise?

Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:14 am 
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Modo wrote:
Adding a front fan could create a zero-pressure case. I'm not sure that's a good thing. ;)

So even such a thing is a "zero-pressure system" and it should be "bad"? ;)

Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:30 am 
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quest for silence..in next few days i'll probably remove mesh grill at the back and try that test

even though cpu temps are "ok" i'll probably also lap cpu and heatsink - that should lower temps by a few degrees, after that i might experiment with ducting hr-02 to exhaust fan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:13 am 
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Hi AmonRaa,

* You can add a Scythe Slip Stream @5v on the gpu to cool it down a lot.

* Maybe cut a blowhole on the top of the solo right under the X-400 grill cover for the heat excape by natural convection.

And can you please post a picture of your tower, I'll like to see how the HR-2 fits in the solo Thanks :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:17 pm 
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suh: I'll post a pic in my next post, promise :)
How it fits? It doesnt :p You have to remove horizontal bar that slightly supports PSU. HR-02 is just too big to mount motherboard properly with that bar in there (maybe depends on motherboard, on mine p5q that bar had to be removed).

Another test:
Disabled Noctua fan, though still in place.
Put Antec at the front of the case occupying 3 drive bays pushing air OUT on low (did testing for high too but since high settings give me headache they're not important but basically low speed results - 15 to 20 degrees).

Results (low speed):
10 degrees C lower idle and load temperature of GPU. What i'll prolly do for gpu is cable tie Noctua on it.

Load temperature for CPU reached 64 degrees, so same as Noctua exhaust on low + side panel off. Note that noctua was still in place thus impeding airflow. With it removed, mesh removed (maybe some dust filter on) results should be further improved.

So guys, is front exhaust fan an option or is there a problem with that setup?
I'd basicly have Noctua on graphic card and undervolted Slipstream at the front (pushing out).

Also, 120mm doesnt completly fill 3 bay slots. Kama bay is an option but since stores here dont stock it and delivery time is unknown with what could i fill that space - suspending fan on elastic and foam all around?

p.s.: HDD (suspended on elastic - compartment below newly installed fan) temp in classcal setup was 41degress and 30 degress in this new test


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:34 am 
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I cant just disappear without an update and the promised pics.

First I removed the honeycomb from the back of the case with pliers.
I lapped the cpu and heatsink: here are before and after (no cpu shots)

Image
Image

I removed front 5.25 bays and plastic infront of them and replaced it with a mesh. I thought about modders mesh but price of shipment from US to EU is the same as price of the product so I used material that was available to me.
I replaced Noctua as exaust fan (and put it in lower HDD bay to pull air from outside cooling HDD and pushing air through GPU) with Slipstream at 5V.
I experimented with said Slipstream using it as 1. case exhaust fan, 2. on the cpu heatsink pulling hot air through heatsink and pushing it out, 3. pushing air through heatsink. All with a duct and without. I expected results for n.3 to be the best since every1 is saying push is best but in this case single fan as exhaust case fan gave best results. Note that duct on or off didnt have an effect. To the pics:

Image
HR-02 is a big boy, so PSU bar had to be removed. In this pic fan is on the heatsink but temperatures were better if it worrks as an exhaust fan, so there it went.

Image
Duct taped that holes and opened up PCI slots so hot air from GPU has an exhaust.

Image
Softmounted HDD, softmounted Noctua on ultralow.

Image
View from the other side.

Image
Some plastic mesh I found lying around. Not perfect, but i think its ok.

Image
From 1m you dont give it a second glance, seems like OEM.

I overclocked CPU to 3.4 on stock voltage (thus no increase in temps).
CPU in my normal work intensity stays under 40C and in Prime reaches only 60C. GPU in Witcher (i'll mostly play frp's) reaches 82C. HDD is cool at 32C.
No increase in noise.
So all is well with the world :p


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 Post subject: Re: New SILENT computer - overly high temps?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:59 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Thanks for the pictures :mrgreen:

It's very tight beetween Hr2 and the psu, looks like only 2 centimeters.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:27 am 
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AmonRaa wrote:
HR-02 is just too big to mount motherboard properly with that bar in there (maybe depends on motherboard, on mine p5q that bar had to be removed).


Any comments on the performance of the HR-02... and how it compares to any other heatsinks that you have used?

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