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 Post subject: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
The last source of noise in my PC are the case fans.
I'd like to know what I can do to make them as quiet as possible.

Questions:
----
a) Can PWM fans run at lower rpm than non-PWM fans ? Do they need lower startup voltage ?

b) I read that some PWM fans can cause a "ticking noise" when running at low rpm. Also, it seems there are very few PWM fan-controllers. (I would need one with 3-5 channels). Are PWM-fans practical, or do they cause a lot of new problems ? I would need a PWM-fan controller anyway, because my motherboard doesn't have enough PWM-fan-headers.

c) Scythe Gentle Tycoon fans seem pretty good for my purpose.
They come in 5 different flavors.
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/0 ... etail.html
AP-11 - 500 rpm - 5 dBA - 31 m3/h
AP-12 - 800 rpm - 9 dBA - 48 m3/h
....
AP-15 - 1850 rpm - 28 dBA - 98 m3/h

How does that work ? Do the different types have different resistors in them, basically undervolting them inside the fan itself ? Or do they have different motors, and they all run truly on 12V ? That would mean you could under-volt them, to run even lower ? E.g. I could either buy a AP-11 and run it at 500 rpm at 12V. Or buy a AP-12, and under-volt it to 6V and run it at 400 rpm even. Would a low-rpm fan have more trouble to start when under-volted than a high-rpm fan ?

d) 5 dBA for the AP-11 seems very very low. Any other fan or brand that I should consider ? Low noise is my priority, airflow hardly is. As long as I have a little airflow in my case.

Thanks in advance,
Gryz.


Background:
----
Components:
i5-3570K, overclocked to 4.0/4.2 GHz. Watercooled.
Asus GTX680. not overclocked. Watercooled.
1xSSD plus 2x 5400rpm HDDs.
ASRock Z77 Extreme 4.
SuperFlower/Kingwin 500W fanless PSU. Fanless !

Component cooling:
CPU and GPU are watercooled, and thus completely silent.
The 500W fanless PSU stays remarkably cool. Even when gaming.
I have a Laing DDC-1T 12V/10W waterpump. It was definitely audible, even when undervolted to 8-9V.
So I sawed a 10 cm hole in the back of the cupboard of my desk.
Water tubes leave the PC, and go to the pump inside the cupboard.
The pump has ~15cm of noise insulation foam at the sides, and 20cm of foam at the top, bottom, front, back.
The pump is absolutely not audible anymore. My plan worked better than expected. And the pump stays relatively cool.
I used to use only the reservoir of my Zalman Resorator1.
With >3 liters of water in it, it takes 1-2 hours to warm up a bit under heavy load.
However, I decided to add a radiator (240mm Black Ice Stealth). Temperature of the loop is pretty low now.

Case fans:
The last source of noise are the case-fans.
(I don't mind occasional noise from the HDDs. It reminds me of the fact that the PC is doing something).
I have 5 fans in my Fractal Design Arc Midi case. All fans are made by Fractal Design.
The original 3x 140mm fans are: 2 in the front, sucking air in, lowest one blowing on the HDDs.
One 140mm in the back, blowing air out.
I bought two new 120mm fans. They are screwed under my radiator, which is screwed in the top of the case.
Blowing air up, out of the case.

The noise:
The fans are audible at 1m distance, when I sit in my chair behind my computer.
Rather low volume, like water rushing through central heating in a house.
Can't hear it when playing games or listening to music. But still I wanna try to get rid of it, as much as possible.
The 2 top radiator fans are on a fan-controller, blowing at minimum speed.
http://www.xigmatek.com/product.php?productid=94
Even at minimum voltage, the fans have no problem starting after a reboot.
The other 3 fans are on another fan controller, the one that came with the FD case.
It looks very similar to the Xigmatek one. (only painted white).
That fan controller can not be set all the way back. Because 2 of the 3 fans will not start after a reboot.

So what can I do to reduce the noise ?
a) Undervolt fans.
b) Buy fans that run at low rpm.
c) Buy the best brand (lowest noise).
d) Less fans.
e) Larger fans.
f) PWM fans ?

I don't care much about airflow. So a 500 rpm fan would do.
My case is cool. My loop is cool, and would take a long time to warm up, even with minimal airflow past the radiator. The PSU seems to do so well, I'm not worried about that either. As long as I get *some* airflow through my case. I want 2 fans on my 240mm radiator, blowing air out of the case, upwards. Then I could have a 3rd case-fan, sucking in air, in the front, so they cool my HDDs a bit. Result: only 3 fans total. (I am currently running with 3 fans only, to look at the impact on temperatures. So far it looks like hardly any different to 5 fans). The real question is: what fans should I buy to replace my FD fans ?


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1892
Location: Guatemala
Gryzemuis wrote:
a) Can PWM fans run at lower rpm than non-PWM fans ? Do they need lower startup voltage ?
It should depend on the fan itself, not all fans can go very low on voltage... but some do. But on PWM fans you have range that they will work garantee under 4pin, for example my Scythe KamaFlex2 PWM can run 300-1600rpm, but i can still run them around 250 fine, no issues starting.

Gryzemuis wrote:
b) I read that some PWM fans can cause a "ticking noise" when running at low rpm. Also, it seems there are very few PWM fan-controllers. (I would need one with 3-5 channels). Are PWM-fans practical, or do they cause a lot of new problems ? I would need a PWM-fan controller anyway, because my motherboard doesn't have enough PWM-fan-headers.
Some do tick, but you cant generalize even on the same model and brand. For example i have on my MiniMi build an TY140 running at 670-700rpm no ticking, but i just did a build recently for a friend with HR02 Macho and around 675rpm it ticks, higher than 715rpm the tick goes away, i cant blame thermalright as the fan is rated 900-1300, so im going below their specs.

Gryzemuis wrote:
c) Scythe Gentle Tycoon fans seem pretty good for my purpose.
They come in 5 different flavors.
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/0 ... etail.html
AP-11 - 500 rpm - 5 dBA - 31 m3/h
AP-12 - 800 rpm - 9 dBA - 48 m3/h
....
AP-15 - 1850 rpm - 28 dBA - 98 m3/h

How does that work ? Do the different types have different resistors in them, basically undervolting them inside the fan itself ? Or do they have different motors, and they all run truly on 12V ? That would mean you could under-volt them, to run even lower ? E.g. I could either buy a AP-11 and run it at 500 rpm at 12V. Or buy a AP-12, and under-volt it to 6V and run it at 400 rpm even. Would a low-rpm fan have more trouble to start when under-volted than a high-rpm fan ?
Here i cant help you mush as i dont have much knowledge into how different version of has are design between the same series. But i can tell you that i ran my AP-15 on Scythe fan controller to 500rpm, lower than that they turn off, i didnt hear any ticks on them being undervolted... but my PC wasnt uber silent back then. SPCR just did a review on them, and they came very well on it, Fan Roundup #6: Scythe, Noiseblocker, Antec, Nexus, Thermalright, only the 800/1450 rpm were tested, but they were really good from what i read, my experience is great with GT. But i do feel 500rpm is very low, it bearly will move air. Im not sure if its because of the ScytheUSA closed their operation (as a lot of scythe products are starting to get hard to get) or because they are not stocking on low rpm gentle typoons or being discontinued... idk, the fact is that among watercooling comunity the AP15 were the favorites as they have very good static preassure, can be undervolted and are not that noisy, that said they do have real ball bearing... some people dont mind (like me), some do.... Either way i cant seem to find any 800rpm or 500rpm anymore.

Gryzemuis wrote:
d) 5 dBA for the AP-11 seems very very low. Any other fan or brand that I should consider ? Low noise is my priority, airflow hardly is. As long as I have a little airflow in my case.
I dont own one yet (maybe soon refreshing my gaming pc with haswell build)... but one of the very well regarded PWM fans for rads are the Noctua NF-F12 PWM Cooling Fan they have good static preassure, their range of operation is very wide and go very low (300-1500rpm via PWM), but here is very improtant that mobo can handle them, some mobos have restriction on their bios, some can overcome it via software like Asus FanXpert2... etc. They are gaining a lot of gound among the watercooling comunity, so this would be my pick if you can control them via mobo, else the GT seems like a better option for a rad.

Gryzemuis wrote:
I don't care much about airflow. So a 500 rpm fan would do.
My case is cool. My loop is cool, and would take a long time to warm up, even with minimal airflow past the radiator. The PSU seems to do so well, I'm not worried about that either. As long as I get *some* airflow through my case. I want 2 fans on my 240mm radiator, blowing air out of the case, upwards. Then I could have a 3rd case-fan, sucking in air, in the front, so they cool my HDDs a bit. Result: only 3 fans total. (I am currently running with 3 fans only, to look at the impact on temperatures. So far it looks like hardly any different to 5 fans). The real question is: what fans should I buy to replace my FD fans ?
Just as a comment, on my HTPCMI build, im runnign 5 scythe kamaflex2 between 250-300rpm and i cant hear anything at all, but the airflow is extremly low, all played well at the end even on load all the components stayed with in comortable temps... so i didnt mind, but each setup is different, i dont have such high end components on it, so my suggestion is to test and see what works better for you. If your mobo can control PWM fan to their full range (both high n low) then i would go with the Noctuas (but crosscheck this as in most builds i have done only the cpu 4pin can go that low), else i would go with the GT12 800rpm, or GT11 500rpm if you feel thats good enough for your rads.

PS, glad the Sunflower work good for you.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.
There aren't many clear answers in your post, but don't worry, this is good enough. Engineering is always a matter of tradeoffs. And you can only make the best tradeoffs when you know all the details.

I don't think I will go with PWM fans. My motherboard has only 1 4-pin fan-header. And the CPU1 fan-header has 4-pins. I had my Laing DDC-1T pump's rpm-connector on the CPU fanheader. But the reporting was flakey (often reporting 0 rpm every 10 sec). Switching the cable to the PWR 3-pin fanheader fixed this. So I don't trust CPU1 fanheader. And 1 remaining PWM fanheader isn't enough for 3-5 case-fans.
Besides, I still can't find a decent PWM fan-controller with 3-5 channels.

So PWM on average doesn't allow lower fanspeeds ? I just need to look at advertised/tested numbers ? Unfortunately those numbers are not available for all brands. I think I'm gonna stick with non-PWM. And just assume that most can be undervolted by 50% max, to make sure they will start. That will give me a decent range of rpm to work with.

Thanks for linking that review of the Gentle Tycoons. I have read a lot of stuff on this website (and others). But missed that one. I think I can conclude that those fans indeed will run at 12V at those speeds. And can be undervolted. I think I will got with the 800rpm version. I see it runs at 876 rpm. My fan-controller(s) seem to have a max output of 90% of 12V. My Laing DDC-1T runs at 3800 rpm without controller. And with controller (turned on max), it runs at only 3400 rpm. So I assume the GT-800 will run 876 without controller, and ~800 with controller. That will give me a range of 800-350rpm.

My current 120mm Fractal Designs ....
Wait. While googling for info, I found out that there are supposedly old (R1) and new (R2) versions of the fractal design fans. My 2x 120mm radiator fans are R2 for sure. But the older 3x 140mm casefans might be R1. (They came with the case, last year May). The 120mm seem indeed quieter than the old 140mm ones. And they start even when I have the fan-controller turned down all the way. Even when I added the "lower rpm" adapters that come with the R2 fans.
I guess I need to test a bit more.

Anyway, the GT-800 look good. They are my first choice now.
It looks like they are easily available in multiple Dutch webshops.


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1892
Location: Guatemala
These comments are not aimed to change your mind, i still think the GT12 are the best choice on your situation. But to throw some options in case you want to test or down the road you want to see how pwm works with certain fans... etc.

Gryzemuis wrote:
I don't think I will go with PWM fans. My motherboard has only 1 4-pin fan-header. And the CPU1 fan-header has 4-pins. I had my Laing DDC-1T pump's rpm-connector on the CPU fanheader. But the reporting was flakey (often reporting 0 rpm every 10 sec). Switching the cable to the PWR 3-pin fanheader fixed this. So I don't trust CPU1 fanheader. And 1 remaining PWM fanheader isn't enough for 3-5 case-fans.
If the motherboard is defective on the pwm or cant control the fans to the range you want then i think its better not to mess with pwm fans, for example on my server build i tried to use 7x scythe kamaflex2 pwm (300-1600rpm), i though to lower them as on my minimi built to 300rpm and if on load to ramp up maybe 500-700... while i could achieve the 300rpm fine.... the mobo had issues with detecting pwm bottom rpms, when they went below 300rpm it ramp all of them to 1600rpm, this was a 10sec cycle, its like the server was breathing, kinda funny but annoying. I contacted Supermicro to see if they could help me with a bios revision, as i really liked the noise level at 300rpm.... but they didnt know if they could do it short term, so i bought 7x Noiseblockers M12-S1 (the others on the review you just read), and were decently quiet, still not as quiet as the Scythe due to rpm difference... but i had so many issues with the server that i just called it. I kinda derail into what i wanted to explain, but the point is you can drive more than one pwm fan with one heather.... just not powered by the mobo, there are adapters like Akasa Flexa FP5 PWM 5-Way Splitter - Smart Fan Cable (AK-CBFA03-45), this is how i powered so many fans on the server with pwm signal, the adapter draws the current from your 4pin molex (PSU) not the 4pin fan heather (mobo), and just one of all the fans will report the pwm signal and the rpms (its labeled on the adapter).

Gryzemuis wrote:
Besides, I still can't find a decent PWM fan-controller with 3-5 channels.
For me PWM fans are not meant for fan controllers but to make it easier on the mobo to control the fans. Not in the same line of this, but interesting, is a fan controller that uses PWM signal to control 3pin fans and you can also manually adjust it from what i remember. I never really tried it personally, kinda wanted with the GT AP15, but then i bought the Scythe Kama flex2 and then i just bought the M12-S1, but ill leave you with a couple of videos in case you are curios,
Sunbeamtech Rheosmart 6 PWM Fan Controller BIOS Setting Tutorial (this one is kinda cool with them powering all off and it starts under certain conditions, depends on the mobo bios into what it allows on pwm fan control)
Product Showcase SUNBEAMTECH Rheosmart 6 Fan Controller (PL-RS-6)

Gryzemuis wrote:
So PWM on average doesn't allow lower fanspeeds ? I just need to look at advertised/tested numbers ? Unfortunately those numbers are not available for all brands. I think I'm gonna stick with non-PWM. And just assume that most can be undervolted by 50% max, to make sure they will start. That will give me a decent range of rpm to work with.
In theory yes, but for example the first gens on pwm fans, like NOiseblocker PS-PL (i belive thats the numbers) the lowerst they could reach were 600rpm, but this is by design thats how they were made. Scythe PWM slipstream and kamaflex2 were the first (that i saw) having a lower operational range 300-1600 (i did test both), and now the noctual NF-F12 also has very decent range droping to 300rpm on pwm (personally havent tested thought, just by specs). Not all fans are design equally, so thus their operation, pwm or no pwm, some drop a lot some dont, but generally pwm fan will have an operational range that via pwm signal they will work that range, but this is not guaranteed operating them via pure undervolting.

Gryzemuis wrote:
I think I will got with the 800rpm version. I see it runs at 876 rpm. My fan-controller(s) seem to have a max output of 90% of 12V. My Laing DDC-1T runs at 3800 rpm without controller. And with controller (turned on max), it runs at only 3400 rpm. So I assume the GT-800 will run 876 without controller, and ~800 with controller. That will give me a range of 800-350rpm.
I think you are right, give or take some rpms depending on the fan controller, from the review,
Image
The picture seems a lot like Asus FanXpert2, when it test all the fans connected to the mobo. This is one of the reason im really looking foward for Asus Haswell board that has FanXpert2 or newer.

Quote:
Wait. While googling for info, I found out that there are supposedly old (R1) and new (R2) versions of the fractal design fans. My 2x 120mm radiator fans are R2 for sure. But the older 3x 140mm casefans might be R1. (They came with the case, last year May). The 120mm seem indeed quieter than the old 140mm ones. And they start even when I have the fan-controller turned down all the way. Even when I added the "lower rpm" adapters that come with the R2 fans.
In case in the future you look for better 140mm fans for the case, i own 2, and really good quiet fans, Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPro PK-1 140mm x 25mm Ultra Quiet Fan - 700 RPM - 9 dBA.

Try, if you feel like it, to share your thoughts on the Scythe Gentle Typhoons, im interested into how is the cooling/noise on a rad with low rpms.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Thanks again for the detailed reply ! Much appreciated.

But it looks like the fans are not making the noise !
I know, pretty embarassing.

I started to become suspicious when I read about the new R2 Silent fans from Fractal Design.
http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=pro ... =4&prod=78
Their specs say:
min 850 rpm, normal 1200 rpm, max 2000 rpm.
I run the fans as slow as possible.
That means already close to 800 rpm. Maybe even lower (half of 1200 would mean 600 rpm already).
My 2x120mm fans are definitely R2. I was not sure about my 3x140mm casefans. They came with the case. Which I bought 7 May 2012. The R2 fans were released April 2012. I think my 140mm fans are R2 too.

So I started to do some testing.

I opened the case. Disabled fans one by one. I couldn't pinpoint which fans were louder and which ones were quieter. Disabled all 5 case fans. The noise seemed to stay at the same volume. Must be something else then ? There was a faint "rushing noise". Like air moving. Or water through the tubes. And a distinct humming. I couldn't locate the humming. The "rushing noise" seemd to come from the HDDs.

Shutdown the PC, unplugged the 2xHDD (and SSD). Rebooted.
No more rushing air sound. Must have been the HDDs.
Humming still there.

Turns out the (light) humming was cause by the pump.
Pump runs at 3800 rpm.
I put in a fan-controller. At full speed, the pump now runs at 3400.
2700-2800 Rpm is the lowest I dare run the pump. I am afraid it won't start.
At 2700-2800 rmp, the pump was still audible. So I put it in noise isolation.
And then I ran my pump at 3400 rpm again. Because I thought it didn't matter. But it did.
So now I run my pump at 2900-3000 rpm. Not audible again. Thanks to both undervolting and noise insulation.

Still, there is the "rushing air" sound. It's the HDDs. I rebooted a few times with and without HDDs. (While the case-fans were still not connected). I never knew HDDs make that sound ! I know the "rattling" sound when you read or write large amounts of data. As I wrote, I don't mind that sound. But in idle (while spinning) they make a lot more noise than I knew ! I guess this will be my next project. Better decoupling, or maybe encasing them (scary).
Time to move to the forum next door. :)

Abula, still thanks a lot for your time. I learned quite a bit. I will probably still buy new case-fans. (I know I can not resist :p). I now feel a lot more certain that better fans will have some impact. And that the end-result will be worthwile. I also think that 800 rpm is more than enough for my case, so I will feel more secure to buy low-rpm fans.

One remaining issue is: will 120mm fans fit in my case, where I now have 140mm fans ? The fans are "clicked" in position. Not with screws. I need to take one out, and see if there are pre-drilled holes for a 120mm fan. If not, I will buy 3x140mm fans. Else I might buy the same ones that I will use at the radiator.

My favorite webshop does carry Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentFan PK-1. They also have all the GT ones. It seems it is now only a matter of choice. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1892
Location: Guatemala
Gryzemuis wrote:
One remaining issue is: will 120mm fans fit in my case, where I now have 140mm fans ? The fans are "clicked" in position. Not with screws. I need to take one out, and see if there are pre-drilled holes for a 120mm fan. If not, I will buy 3x140mm fans. Else I might buy the same ones that I will use at the radiator.

My favorite webshop does carry Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentFan PK-1. They also have all the GT ones. It seems it is now only a matter of choice. :)
Im a little confused, i though that you had 140mm fans on intake and out (fractal fans) on midi and top 240mm rad on top (with 2x 120mm fractal fans). If thats correct, my suggestions for the GT12 (800rpm) was for the rad only (or is it a 280 rad?), either way, the Noiseblocker PK1 is a great fan for case fans where its not too much restricted (i would still undervolt them to where they are inaudible), has decent airflow bieng a 140mm but to my knowledge it wont perform as good on rads/heatsink, but again this are case fan down the road if you feel you fractals 140s arent cutting it to your desire of lower nosie. If i go into haswell wiht R4, PK1 will by my choice for 2 fronts and back, but for the heatsink ill probably still use a TY-140 or Noctua NF-F14, still deciding though into moving back to atx... but will see depending on the mobos. The Arc midi should be able to fit 120s though, but idk if its worth it, it will lower the airflow and the same rpms.... i would do that only if i were not to find any good 140mm fans.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
Posts: 40
Abula wrote:
Im a little confused, i though that you had 140mm fans on intake and out (fractal fans) on midi and top 240mm rad on top (with 2x 120mm fractal fans).

Correct.

Quote:
If thats correct, my suggestions for the GT12 (800rpm) was for the rad only (or is it a 280 rad?), either way,

It's a 240mm radiator. It has 2x120mm FD fans now.
Yes, I am planning to put 2x GT12 120mm fans there.

I would prefer to put 5x the same fan in my case. For simplicity. But the Gentle Typhoons are only available in 120mm. While I need 140mm fans for my case (2x front, 1x back). An option would be to put in GT12-120mm anyway. But only if I can attach/install them without too much problems. (E.g. if there are pre-drilled holes for 120mm). If not, I need to find another type/brand fan. As you recommend the NoiseBlocker 140mm PK1, I will probably go try those.

Quote:
the Noiseblocker PK1 is a great fan for case fans where its not too much restricted (i would still undervolt them to where they are inaudible), has decent airflow bieng a 140mm but to my knowledge it wont perform as good on rads/heatsink, but again this are case fan down the road if you feel you fractals 140s arent cutting it to your desire of lower nosie.

Exactly like my current plan.

Quote:
If i go into haswell wiht R4, PK1 will by my choice for 2 fronts and back, but for the heatsink ill probably still use a TY-140 or Noctua NF-F14, still deciding though into moving back to atx... but will see depending on the mobos. The Arc midi should be able to fit 120s though, but idk if its worth it, it will lower the airflow and the same rpms.... i would do that only if i were not to find any good 140mm fans.

The only reason would be to have 5x the same fan. But maybe I'm overcautious, and I should go with the best fan for the best application.

I'm still baffled by the noise my HDDs make when spinning, but not active.
I've had totally fanless PCs before (watercooled PSU, Zalman Resorator setups). I never heard the HDDs before. Maybe it's these Samsungs (HD204UI, only 5400 rpm).

I could go mess around with HDD-boxes, etc. But the simplest thing is probably:
- Buy a 256 or 512GB SSD (Samsung 840, Pro or non-Pro).
- Put my Users folder back on the SSD (it's off my 60GB Vertex2, on a HDD atm).
- Disable paging completely (got a separate partition for pagefile on a HDD).
- Put more games on the SSD.
- Put powersavings to switch off the HDDs completely after 5 minutes.

That should keep my HDDs switched off most of the time. Unless when I am messing with large files (films, etc). I think that'll be simpler and more cost effective than trying to shut the HDDs up.


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:29 am 
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Location: Guatemala
Gryzemuis wrote:
I would prefer to put 5x the same fan in my case. For simplicity. But the Gentle Typhoons are only available in 120mm. While I need 140mm fans for my case (2x front, 1x back). An option would be to put in GT12-120mm anyway. But only if I can attach/install them without too much problems. (E.g. if there are pre-drilled holes for 120mm). If not, I need to find another type/brand fan. As you recommend the NoiseBlocker 140mm PK1, I will probably go try those.
Personally i like to have the best that i can with in my budget for each task, like for example in my experience Scythe Slipstreams are amazing fans for case fans (i have built at least 3pcs for friends with only slisptreams as case fans), but not that great for rads (still baffles me that Scythe includes this fans for the mugen3 instead of the kamaflex2, maybe its to keep cost down idk). For this alone i would go GT 800rpm for the rad and PK1 for the case fans, specially thinking on maintaining similar airflow so you passive Sunflower gets air to cool itself. If i were to build on 120mm case fans i still would not go for GTs, i like a lot how the Noiseblockers M12-S1 work. But also will depend on what mobo and how im going to control the fans.

Now I'm not suggesting you do it now... if you are happy with your current case fans let it be and upgrade gradually, personally i cant, but i dont want you to spend more than your need to =).

Gryzemuis wrote:
I'm still baffled by the noise my HDDs make when spinning, but not active.
I've had totally fanless PCs before (watercooled PSU, Zalman Resorator setups). I never heard the HDDs before. Maybe it's these Samsungs (HD204UI, only 5400 rpm).

I could go mess around with HDD-boxes, etc. But the simplest thing is probably:
- Buy a 256 or 512GB SSD (Samsung 840, Pro or non-Pro).
- Put my Users folder back on the SSD (it's off my 60GB Vertex2, on a HDD atm).
- Disable paging completely (got a separate partition for pagefile on a HDD).
- Put more games on the SSD.
- Put powersavings to switch off the HDDs completely after 5 minutes.

That should keep my HDDs switched off most of the time. Unless when I am messing with large files (films, etc). I think that'll be simpler and more cost effective than trying to shut the HDDs up.
I think its great that you find the biggest source of noise, and this is what you should aim your resources atm, and slowlly improving the overall noise/performance. I do own HD204UI, but not on PCs but on my HD TV recorder, and been perfect, i bought it because of reviews i saw here, but never really tried on a PC. But none the less is interesting the sound that its coming from it, i think you already have some solutions in hand that i think will help =). Btw Crucial just released their new M500 and there is 960gb version. Personally on my ssds i dont do much tweaking, some people recommend to move the page file, but i don't, i just leave it as it is, even if this means my ssd will wear faster than others, but i dont like to mess to much with things that work well. The only thing that i do on my ssds is remove hyberation, disable defrag manually and turn off the system restore. In my PC the mechanical hdd is only for storage, most of my pics, movies and music is there, and the download folder is redirected there also, the rest of my docs are on my ssd.

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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Location: Guatemala
This is just to complement more info, not to make you buy or anything, its more like a warning.

Since Haswell its getting closer, im researching a lot in a lot of aspects, specially if i go back into ATX factor i'll probably go into Define R4 and thus 140mm fans are ideal. With my great experience with my two noiseblocker pk1, i had no doubt this would been my case fans, as i don't need more than 700rpm, and even though i did try undervolting them, and they dropped around 400rpm which made them really nice range, i assume they were going down gradually with voltage, but since im planning on running an Asus FanXpert2 setup on Haswell, i wanted to see how all the PK series perform, and i stumble on something that i do think its important and changed my plan for the Haswell build.

Cooling Technique Review Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPro, its in italian, so use google chrome to translate directly or google translate if you dont use chrome. Something interesting in the review, and its the PK1/PK2 behavior upon undervolting,

ImageImage

Even though im not planning on running the case fan ever over 1k rpm, i do want to be able to control them dynamically with FanXpert2, specially for them to ramp up gradually depending on the conditions on the case. Im not sure if the review sample was bad, but it seems to have a dead control from 6 to 12v, given that it drops down as mine close to 400rpm, its a very low range for controlling, the PK2 has a more fluid rpm with voltage and the bottom of the rpms is very close, so for my build ill run pk2 instead of pk1. I still think for someone not undervolting dinamically its a great fan, even for someone that its fine having lets say 2 speeds, 500rpm (5V) / 700rpm (12v) it should be great, but for someone looking for a sweet spot or dynamically control them, i think pk2 is better choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:20 am 
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Posts: 40
Thanks for the headsup.
I ordered 3x PK-1s last week. They should be arriving soon.

Last night I looked for alternatives.
I don't think the PK-2s are that much better for me. They have more control over rpm in the range of 630+. But I'm interested in low rpm. 630 and lower, maybe to 300 rpm even. It seems that is impossible with both PK-1 and PK-2.

I looked for alternatives.
I opened my case. I can only mount 140mm fans in the front, as there are no holes. The fans are clamped in. I hope non-Fractal Design fans will clamp in just as good. I guess I'll have to try that. I noticed my 140mm fans (that came with the case) were the old R1 fans (FD-FAN-140). Those are supposedly a bit more noisy than the new R2 ones.
Old ones: http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=product&prod=19
New ones: http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=product&prod=79
SPCR test: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1034-page5.html

The old ones are specced at 800 rpm, but seemed to run at 690rpm, 11 dBa. The new ones run faster. If they really run at 1000 rpm, then I need to undervolt to 9V to run at the same rpm. My current fan-controllers have a range of 6-12V. My R1-140mm fans don't start at 6V. But my R2-120mm fans do.
I wonder if buying 3 new R2-140mm fans would help. They should be a bit more silent, they could maybe run lower rpm, and maybe their startup voltage is lower. But I don't know for sure. And then there's reports of clicking noises with the R2s.

I looked at more 140mm fans, from other brands. But none of them seemed to get close to the 9dBA of the Noiseblockers. Most seem to run at 12dBa or higher. In that case, I could just as well go with the Fractal R2s.

My plan is now to let the NoiseBlocker PK-1s arrive. I can run them at 400 rpm, which should lower noise from 9dBA to 7dBA or so. I guess that should do. I don't see any other 140mm fans that can get so low noise. Reminder: I just want a little airflow. Low noise is much more important than airflow.


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Im guessing your PK1 and GT12 arrived, if they did have you tried them? did you like them sound wise? how did they perform on cooling?

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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Hi Abula. Yes, they arrived a while ago. I've been using them. They seem to work fine.

I moved my HDDs out of my case. I bought a NAS (Zyxel NSA325). And a 256GB Samsun 840Pro. The 2 HDDs go in the NAS. The 840Pro holds my OS, Users folder, and a few games I currently play. The HDDs would make more noise when spinning than the whole rest of the system.

I use 2 NoiseBlockers as casefans. And the 2 GentleTyphoons for my radiator. I can hardly hear them, sitting at about 1 meter away. But they are not totally silent.

Controlling fanspeed was indeed a problem. With both types of fans. I bought a 4-port Scythe Kaze Master Flat KM06-BK fan-controller. I chose it because it has "spin up control". I needed that go get my waterpump (Laing DDC-1T) going, before it would lower the voltage. I planned to attach the pump and 3 fans to the controller. Well, that didn't work at all. The Scythe fan-controller would run at 12V for maybe 3-5 seconds, and then drop to the lower voltage. That was not enough to get my pump started. So I detached the pump, and attached 2 the case-fans and the 2 radiator-fans to the fan-controller. The fans indeed have weird behaviour when under-volting. So in the end, I run all 4 of them at 480-510 rpm. I can't go lower. Of course the fans will start fine (they only need a few second at 12V to get going).

So at the moment, the loudest source of noise is still the pump. Even when undervolted, and running at 2200 rpm (in stead of the 3800 rpm at 12V), I can still hear it. Even when placed outside the PC-case, in a cupboard in my desk, in 10cm of noise insulating foam. It is pretty quiet now, but not silent. It can be very quiet in my house. My house is an old farmhouse, with thick walls and isolating windows. My neighbors and the road are 100+ meters away. So at night it is very very quiet here. :) I am a night person, so I sit behind my PC a lot at night. So at night I can still hear my pump. I might be able to hear the fans too, but because the pump is a bit louder, I don't notice the fans.

In the end, my machine is rather silent. So my goal is achieved.
On top of that, my machine is also running pretty cool. I am not overclocking yet. But when games get more demanding, I have a little headroom to overclock. (Example: I am currently playing Metro Last Light, and the game runs at 60 fps most of the time).

I'm not unhappy. I just hadn't expected it to cost me close to a 1000 euros to achieve my goal. :) (190 euros for the SSD, 160 euros for my PSU, 120 euros for a NAS, 80 euros for the gpu-block, 60 euros for a pump, 35 euros for a radiator, 30 euros for custom pump-top, 90 euros for replacing the HDD that I dropped when trying to get it suspended (my mistake), 100 euros for fans, a few meters of tube, noise insulating foam, clamps, 3-pin cables, and more small stuff. And a few fan-controllers that I tried, which all disappointed me).

I did learn a lot. Next time I need to build a quiet or silent machine (for myself, or for someone else), I know what to do now.


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:26 pm 
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Glad all work out for you, the pump is what i fear if i ever go into watercooling. I do stay on the PC a lot at night and also get very quiet, i still can hear the 180mm fan on my TJ08E, not that bothers me too much but still is noticeble on very quiet ambient.

But i did order a Fractal Design Define R4 for building on haswell, similar to yours... but a lot more restrictive in airflow and hopping a little more quiet. Still undecided if i go with PK1 or PK2 as i do want to dynamically control the fans with FanXpert2. Did you find the PK1 much more quiet than the Fractals 140? Did you try the PK1 with your fan controller, i mean did you see it not move much from 12V-7V and then drop to 500rpm? my case will have the same stock fans. Im either going to go with Thermalright Silver Arrow or an HR02 Macho, not sure yet, as i see a lot of comments into R4 being very restrictive on the airflow.

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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-11 or ? (Most quiet case fans).
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am
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Abula wrote:
Did you find the PK1 much more quiet than the Fractals 140?


I don't think it matters much.
I don't have anything to measure soundlevels, so my findings are all subjective.
I did not test the FD-140s with my new fan-controller. My 3 old and cheap controllers give 6V-12V range. I could run the 120mm radiator fans (FD-120) at the lowest setting with no problem ( I assume that was 6V). The FD-140s on the other hand, would not spin up at 6V. So I probably ran my FD-140 at 8-9V at the time.
Also, I have no way to objectively compare airflow. My new PK-1s and GT-12s might be (slightly) more quiet, but they also might move less air.
Also, when I had my FD-140s, I had not undervolted my pump yet.

But subjectively, it feels like there isn't that much difference between the FD-140s en the PK-1s.
The FD-120s at 6V already were very very quiet, so I don't think the GTs help a lot there. Hopefully the GTs move more air.

Getting rid of the spinning noise of your HDD(s) will be much more important than optimizing the noise from your case-fans.

Quote:
Did you try the PK1 with your fan controller, i mean did you see it not move much from 12V-7V and then drop to 500rpm?

Yes. And indeed, the rpm did behave as expected.
The Scythe Kaze Flat fan-controller has +/- buttons per channel. Tapping a button will change the voltage slightly, which will result in a ~30rpm difference. However, the PK-1 needed to be "tapped down" about 20 times before the rpm would go down. So that probably means that between 12V and 6V the rpm stays absolutely the same. And then I have only a few settings to chose from (510-670, and a few settings in between). This was a little disappointing. But I feel that with the cheap 12V-6V I would probably not even get below max-speed-rpm. The weird things is: the GT-12s didn't give a much wider range.

Quote:
Im either going to go with Thermalright Silver Arrow or an HR02 Macho, not sure yet, as i see a lot of comments into R4 being very restrictive on the airflow.

As I said, I can't measure airflow, so I can not comment on that. Most heat (cpu&gpu) is removed via watercooling in my machine. And the radiator is less important, as I have 3+ liter in my system. But my system runs very cool. Cores stay around 50C when gaming, gpu stays below 40C. HDDs were always around 25C. And other temperatures that I see in HWMonitor seem to hardly change under load as well. So personally I am not worried about temperatures in my case at all. That's why I run with only 2 case fans and 2 radiator-fans. I bet that now that I removed my HDDs, I can disable the front case-fan as well.

If I were you, I'd try using the FD-140 fans. I had the old ones, you probably will get the new ones. I would first invest in a better fan-controller (with spinup control) so that you can run the 140mm fans at 4-6V, in stead of needing ~8V to get the fans going. Only then, if the fans make too much noise in your opinion, I would replace the fans.


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