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 Post subject: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:06 am
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Location: Bellevue, Washington
Hello!

I was wondering if anyone might be willing to give me some suggestions on a build I was hoping to start soon. (current comp keep turning itself back on after shutting down) In particular, I'm not really sure which direction to go with the motherboard. While I'm not looking at super extravagant Haswell models, I figured a mid to a mid-high one would work decently enough. Cost isn't a factor for the CPU or mobo.

Primarily, I'll be using this comp for web surfing and Office, but I'll also need it for Creative Suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, maybe Premiere Pro) and some gaming (generally MOBAs & strategy). My hope is that I'll be able to use this for at least 5 years, so it'd be nice to futureproof it some.

CPU: Core i5?
CPU Heatsink: HR-02 Macho
Mobo: Was throwing around the MSI Z87-G45, ASUS Z87-PLUS, ASUS Z87-PRO, Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD3H, ASUS Maximus VI Hero but not really tied to any
Primary HD: Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB
Secondary HD: WD Red 3 TB
PSU: SeaSonic X-650 (already have)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 2x 8 GB (until 10/9, there's a $30 discount, so it's not much more than a 2x4 GB)
GPU: Have a 4870, waiting for Rx200 reviews to decide
Case: Define R4

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 1564
Location: Guatemala
chaohuei wrote:
Case: Define R4
PSU: SeaSonic X-650 (already have)
Really good components, what case fans are you planning on using?

chaohuei wrote:
Mobo: Was throwing around the MSI Z87-G45, ASUS Z87-PLUS, ASUS Z87-PRO, Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD3H, ASUS Maximus VI Hero but not really tied to any
Why Z87 boards? are you overclocking? if so then its fine, else an H87 or B85 would be fine. Im going to suggest to chose the motherboard according to how you want to control the fans and what fans you planning on using.

1) If you plan to use the R4 fan controller for the the case fans then disregard everything and go with the any board you like.
2) If you want to control the fans with software, and you plan on using 3pin (like the included Fractal R2 140mm fans), then im going to suggest the Asus Z87 PRO (cheaper) or Asus Maximus VI Hero (more expensive), install AI SUITE III and control the fans with FanXpert2.
3) If you go with PWM fans for case fans like Noctua NF-A14 PWM and wish to control them with pure bios (no software), then look into Asrock Z87 Extreme 3 or 6 (depending on your budget) or MSI Z87-GD65/45/43 (depending on your budget), check my signature for similar build.

chaohuei wrote:
CPU: Core i5?
If you are going with Z87 mobo, and planning on keeping it 5 years i would go with K CPU so you have the option for overclocking down the road if you need more cpu power. Intel Core i5-4670K Quad-Core Desktop Processor 3.4 GHZ 6 MB Cache - BX80646I54670K $229 free shipping

chaohuei wrote:
CPU Heatsink: HR-02 Macho
Nice cooler, the only suggestion is to go with the black n white version, it cost the same, and will look better matching the black n white theme of the Define R4, Thermarlight HR02 Macho B/W $52.50 free shipping.

chaohuei wrote:
Primary HD: Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB
Secondary HD: WD Red 3 TB
Great SSD, good mature firmware, great storage hdd reviewed by SPCR.

chaohuei wrote:
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 2x 8 GB (until 10/9, there's a $30 discount, so it's not much more than a 2x4 GB)
Memory i like a lot crucial, worked great with Asus Maximus IV Gene and with MSI Z87-GD65, but i went with low profile low voltage, its also on sale atm, just $10 more. Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Low Profile Desktop Memory Model BLS2K8G3D1609ES2LX0, very nice size, you can fit almost any cooler you desire in the future, even twin tower coolers with frontal fans.

chaohuei wrote:
GPU: Have a 4870, waiting for Rx200 reviews to decide
I think most of the RX200 will be rebadges of the current gen, the only new GPU that AMD will offer is the R290. Wait for it to hit retail before deciding, maybe nvidia lowers their GPUs, the MSI N760 (GTX760) is a wonderful choice in performance/noise/cost, if you wish to read more check CA_Steve GTX 760 review compilation, but wait to see what amd offers.

_________________
DESKTOP >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4770K | Thermalright HR-22 + TY150 @550rpm | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @225rpm | SeaSonic X-660
Other builds -->> Server | HTPC | Download Station


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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:29 am
Posts: 564
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chaohuei wrote:
GPU: Have a 4870, waiting for Rx200 reviews to decide

R7 260X = 7790 +10% clock speed
R9 270X = 7870 + 5% clock speed
R9 280X = 7979GHz -5% clock speed
I don't expect any suprise performance from these cards, their predecessors might get a nice price drop when they're phased out.
R9 290(x) should compete with GTX780 (non X) and Titan, they will be introduced later.
chaohuei wrote:
Primarily, I'll be using this comp for web surfing and Office, but I'll also need it for Creative Suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, maybe Premiere Pro) and some gaming (generally MOBAs & strategy). My hope is that I'll be able to use this for at least 5 years, so it'd be nice to futureproof it some.

If you get a Z87 mainboard you should get a K CPU for overclocking, the i5-4670K has the best bang for the buck. Photoshop and strategy games could benefit from a higher clocked CPU.
The HR-02 is prbably the best single fan CPU cooler, if you want the maximum overclock on air you could get a Phanteks PH-TC14PE. If the HR-02 is so expensive (over 50$?) I would spend the extra 25$ for the Phantek either way. You do need low profile RAM with this cooler.
For futerproofing I would get the fastest SSD or at least the fastest connection. SSDs already saturate Sata 6Gb/s (6Gigabit = 750 Megabyte before overhead ~ 550MB/s after) so the next standard Sata Express is based on PCIe and has a theoretical bandwidth of 1.6GB/s (Gigabyte!). One form factor for these SSDs is called M.2 (formerly known as NGFF: next generation form factor), already present in some Sony Z series ultrabooks with preconfigured SSDs and most likely the upcoming MacPro. Asus has three of mainboards with that connector: Maximus VI Formula (ATX), ASUS MAXIMUS VI GENE (mATX) and the MAXIMUS VI IMPACT (ITX).
SSDs with that formfactor are just coming to the market like the Samsung XP 941 (review by SSDreview).
The mainboard and SSD are more expensive than comparable products without the M.2 connector. Intels next generation chipset will have Sata Express standard.

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Evga GTX 670 FTW+ 4GB with Thermalright Spitfire and Thermalright TY-150 500-800RPM, Seasonic 460W Platinum Fanless


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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
It's a nice build list.

RAM: While Haswell's memory performance is pretty flat vs speed, 1333 will be a slight hit to performance vs 1600 (with the same latency). Photoshop is the only memory hog of your listed apps..and unless you run tons of large images, 8GB could be good enough. (what's the task mgr in your current PC say during your typical Photoshop use?)

SSD: 840 Pro is a good choice. Down the road, you can always add another SSD for separate app/workspace.

WD Red: There's an odd thing going on with the Red. Newegg shows a lot of DOA returns while Amazon doesn't. Rumor is that it's due to the Egg's packing method vs Amazon's. fyi.

GPU: what's your monitor resolution and what games do you play? That drives the gpu horsepower req.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:06 am
Posts: 17
Location: Bellevue, Washington
Abula wrote:
chaohuei wrote:
Case: Define R4
PSU: SeaSonic X-650 (already have)
Really good components, what case fans are you planning on using?

I was going to listen to the R4's fans to see if I like them. Otherwise, I'm leaning toward either the Noiseblocker M12-S2 or the Scythe GT120-12.

Abula wrote:
Why Z87 boards? are you overclocking? if so then its fine, else an H87 or B85 would be fine.

1) If you plan to use the R4 fan controller for the the case fans then disregard everything and go with the any board you like.
2) If you want to control the fans with software, and you plan on using 3pin (like the included Fractal R2 140mm fans), then im going to suggest the Asus Z87 PRO (cheaper) or Asus Maximus VI Hero (more expensive), install AI SUITE III and control the fans with FanXpert2.
3) If you go with PWM fans for case fans like Noctua NF-A14 PWM and wish to control them with pure bios (no software), then look into Asrock Z87 Extreme 3 or 6 (depending on your budget) or MSI Z87-GD65/45/43 (depending on your budget), check my signature for similar build.

At the outset, no, I wasn't planning on overclocking. Maybe in the future, but it isn't a priority. I've never tried it, though, so it's seems worth trying at some point.

Unfortunately, the fan choice above does factor into the mobo choice, doesn't it? Optimally, I'd prefer BIOS-controlled fans, but I figured that I could probably find adapters or go with software-controlled fans. Initially, I'd leaned toward the MSI Z87-G45 and the MSI Z87-GD65, but I thought I'd try to be a bit more open-minded since I don't have as much time to research as I used to. How are the ASRocks? I've had experience with MSI, Gigabyte, and ASUS but I don't recall even having personally seen other brands.

boost wrote:
For futureproofing I would get the fastest SSD or at least the fastest connection.

How soon do you think they'll take before becoming mainstream? While someone is covering the CPU/mobo for me, I'd rather that he not spend too much money. Generally, I was looking at mobos that were less than $200.

Abula wrote:
If you are going with Z87 mobo, and planning on keeping it 5 years i would go with K CPU so you have the option for overclocking down the road if you need more cpu power.

boost wrote:
If you get a Z87 mainboard you should get a K CPU for overclocking, the i5-4670K has the best bang for the buck. Photoshop and strategy games could benefit from a higher clocked CPU.

The i5-4670K seems like a good value. I think I'll go with that.

Abula wrote:
Nice cooler, the only suggestion is to go with the black n white version, it cost the same, and will look better matching the black n white theme of the Define R4

Didn't even realize that there were color variants. Good to know!

boost wrote:
The HR-02 is prbably the best single fan CPU cooler, if you want the maximum overclock on air you could get a Phanteks PH-TC14PE. If the HR-02 is so expensive (over 50$?) I would spend the extra 25$ for the Phantek either way. You do need low profile RAM with this cooler.

If I did OC, I don't think I'd try to max it out, to be honest. Right now, I'm looking at just over $50 (seems relatively hard to source right now) for the Macho.

It seems that the Macho's got better cooling capability whereas the Phantek sounds better. Did I miss something when reading about the two?

Abula wrote:
Memory i like a lot crucial, worked great with Asus Maximus IV Gene and with MSI Z87-GD65, but i went with low profile low voltage, its also on sale atm, just $10 more. Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Low Profile Desktop Memory Model BLS2K8G3D1609ES2LX0, very nice size, you can fit almost any cooler you desire in the future, even twin tower coolers with frontal fans.

Seems reasonable.

CA_Steve wrote:
Photoshop is the only memory hog of your listed apps..and unless you run tons of large images, 8GB could be good enough.
I was thinking of going for 8 GB initially, but with the $30 discount, I figured that I might as well spring for 2x8GB instead of 2x4GB. It also doesn't seem like low profile sticks exist with 1600 DDR3 sticks. How often does that end up being a concern?

I don't use CS extensively at the moment, only occasionally, so I don't have numbers for you. I'm enrolled in a design program right now, so I wanted to make sure that I'd have plenty of memory to run CS smoothly for when (and if) I would need it. My current class probably isn't going to require heavy use of PS, AI, or PP, so I don't think it'll be an immediate factor.

Abula wrote:
I think most of the RX200 will be rebadges of the current gen, the only new GPU that AMD will offer is the R290. Wait for it to hit retail before deciding, maybe nvidia lowers their GPUs, the MSI N760 (GTX760) is a wonderful choice in performance/noise/cost, if you wish to read more check CA_Steve GTX 760 review compilation, but wait to see what amd offers.

boost wrote:
I don't expect any surprise performance from these cards, their predecessors might get a nice price drop when they're phased out.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was expecting. From some of the early reviews that I skimmed this morning (which didn't seem super comprehensive), it seems that the cards coming out first are basically cheaper and re-badged versions of the 7000 series, so I think I'll see how it'll affect the cards already on the market. The 4870's still serviceable, so I'm in no hurry to grab a new GPU.

CA_Steve wrote:
what's your monitor resolution and what games do you play? That drives the gpu horsepower req.
I have two monitors. My primary is running at 1920x1200. My secondary's at 1080p. I'm hoping to replace that with another 1920x1200, though. I don't think the games I play are really going to require much. I currently play League of Legends the most. If I end up with more time, I'd probably go back to Heroes 5/6 and SC2. To be honest, I'm more worried that my video card might give out (and the drivers aren't officially being updated any longer).

CA_Steve wrote:
WD Red: There's an odd thing going on with the Red. Newegg shows a lot of DOA returns while Amazon doesn't. Rumor is that it's due to the Egg's packing method vs Amazon's.
I do some shipping at work, and I generally find that I prefer Newegg's packing. How ironic.

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:39 am 
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chaohuei wrote:
boost wrote:
The HR-02 is prbably the best single fan CPU cooler, if you want the maximum overclock on air you could get a Phanteks PH-TC14PE. If the HR-02 is so expensive (over 50$?) I would spend the extra 25$ for the Phantek either way. You do need low profile RAM with this cooler.

If I did OC, I don't think I'd try to max it out, to be honest. Right now, I'm looking at just over $50 (seems relatively hard to source right now) for the Macho.

It seems that the Macho's got better cooling capability whereas the Phantek sounds better. Did I miss something when reading about the two?

Phantek is the best air cooler right now, narrowly beating out the Noctua NH-D14, third place to Alpenföhn K2, Prolimatech Genesis and Thermalright SB-E shared. But the temperature margin is so small, you can just get whichever is cheaper. Phantek also has a black variant. For single fan coolers I'd recommend HR-02 or Mugen 4 whichever is cheaper. Two fans means better cooling potential, also two sources of noise, but you only need it for higher overclocks.
chaohuei wrote:
boost wrote:
For futureproofing I would get the fastest SSD or at least the fastest connection.

How soon do you think they'll take before becoming mainstream? While someone is covering the CPU/mobo for me, I'd rather that he not spend too much money. Generally, I was looking at mobos that were less than $200.

Sata express will become mainstream with Intel 9 series chipsets middle of next year. Before that you will see M.2 SSDs in higher end notebooks and Macs.
The mainboards with M.2 connectors are very expensive and if you don't (intend to) use all the features like M.2, faster Wifi throgh mSATA and improved sound and overclocking abilities they are too expensive.
IMHO I only regretted not going for the higher end mainboard because later I wanted the features my board didn't have, but YMMV.

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Evga GTX 670 FTW+ 4GB with Thermalright Spitfire and Thermalright TY-150 500-800RPM, Seasonic 460W Platinum Fanless


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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:51 am 
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boost wrote:
The mainboards with M.2 connectors are very expensive and if you don't (intend to) use all the features like M.2, faster Wifi throgh mSATA and improved sound and overclocking abilities they are too expensive.
Asus implementation on the Maximus VI boards of the M.2 port is not so good, read NGFF M.2 SSD in the Mpcie combo2 slot, the only reason to persue it is if you dont have any place to mount a 2.5 ssd? which on a desktop is extremely easy, maybe in the impact could be worth it but in all others its better just to go with sata III ssd.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the fan choice above does factor into the mobo choice, doesn't it? Optimally, I'd prefer BIOS-controlled fans, but I figured that I could probably find adapters or go with software-controlled fans. Initially, I'd leaned toward the MSI Z87-G45 and the MSI Z87-GD65, but I thought I'd try to be a bit more open-minded since I don't have as much time to research as I used to. How are the ASRocks? I've had experience with MSI, Gigabyte, and ASUS but I don't recall even having personally seen other brands.
You seem to be trying to spend they least you can on the build, so for this im going to suggest against going with PWM fans, there are not that many choices out there, and even then they are expensive Noctua NF-A14 PWM $24, Noiseblocker PK-PS $25, so on 3 fans you probably will be going into what the R4 is going to cost you. So thinking on are on budget, my suggestion is go with ASUS Z87-PLUS, is a good solid choice, its retails for $155 ($10 less until tomorrow) and comes with FanXpert2, you can connect the included fractal fans to 3pin CHA_FAN headers on the motherboard and control them with FanXpert2, aswell as the MACHO TY147 since its PWM fan it will be on CPU_FAN header the only true PWM header, all will play good, this would end up the cheapest solution for a very quiet setup (it will be cheaper on H87/B85 but you lose the ocing posibility for the future).

Now if you want to go with MSI, and not invest on PWM fans, its also fine, just connect the fractal 140 r2 fans to the included R4 fan controller (12/7/5V switch), and use the MSI BIOS to control the the Macho Ty147 fan on the CPU_FAN1 header. I would prefer the Asus mobo as it will dynamically move all the fans depending on the conditions of the case, and it will be cheaper.

AsRock i have no idea, seems haswell asrock mobos have much tweakable fan contol with multiple breakpoints for fan speed and temperature (but with pwm), i haven't personally tried it, so check the following thread, Quiet gaming setup, you will find more info about asrock bios fan control there.

Quote:
I was going to listen to the R4's fans to see if I like them. Otherwise, I'm leaning toward either the Noiseblocker M12-S2 or the Scythe GT120-12.
The R4 comes with Fractal 140mm R2 fans, which imo are decent, and for someone not looking to spend much they are pretty solid, i tested them on FanXpert2 and they drop around 400rpm where they are quiet. I would add one extra though for intake, the R4 is very restrictive on the intake with fan filter and the window and door, so two fans intake imo is worth it, you can even set fanXpert2 to turn off fans if you feel dont need them under very light conditions and turn them on and ramp them depending on the settings of the CPU.

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:08 pm 
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At 1980x1200, you really don't need anything more than the GTX 760-class card (7950ish) @ $250. LoL will run well with a low end gaming card, SC2 doesn't need much more than the HD 7770 at Ultra quality. If these are the types of games you plan on playing, you could save money and get a 7770-class card now for $100-150. A couple of years down the road, you can always buy another game card.

Also, be aware AMD doesn't ever idle GDDR5 VRAM clock when you have two monitors connected...unless they fixed it this time around with the fall re-badging. This adds ~20W for idle, 2D and watching videos.

Lots of low profile DDR3 1600 RAM out there...anything you can find at 1333 is sold at 1600. If your aim is to save $'s, you can always add 2 more sticks of RAM in there. Better off getting 2x4GB of the faster RAM.

SSD: Don't sweat the future..it's mostly fun with benchmarks. In real apps, I doubt you'd notice the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:56 am 
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Abula wrote:
You seem to be trying to spend they least you can on the build, so for this im going to suggest against going with PWM fans

Not quite. For the mobo and CPU, I am being more price-conscious, since I'm not paying for them. But I'm willing to spend money out of my pocket for everything else. I'd figured on $500-ish for the CPU/mobo and between $750 and $1000 between the GPU (at some point), RAM, SSD, storage HD, case, and CPU HS/F. As it is, I have room in my budget for both for some other or higher-end parts. Given that, would your mobo suggestion remain the same? (the Z87-PRO is actually on a sale right now, so that's another possibility)

CA_Steve wrote:
be aware AMD doesn't ever idle GDDR5 VRAM clock when you have two monitors connected...unless they fixed it this time around with the fall re-badging. This adds ~20W for idle, 2D and watching videos.

Sounds like it'd be worth waiting around a bit longer just to see what happens with the rebadging, then. I think I heard speculation that nVidia will cut prices in response to the R9 200s, too, so that might make some of those options juicier.

CA_Steve wrote:
Lots of low profile DDR3 1600 RAM out there...anything you can find at 1333 is sold at 1600.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "low profile" means, then. I'd broken up height into three categories: high profile, "standard," and low profile. (I linked to the first examples I could find) Am I being too divisive in my categorization?

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:08 am 
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chaohuei wrote:
Not quite. For the mobo and CPU, I am being more price-conscious, since I'm not paying for them. But I'm willing to spend money out of my pocket for everything else. I'd figured on $500-ish for the CPU/mobo and between $750 and $1000 between the GPU (at some point), RAM, SSD, storage HD, case, and CPU HS/F. As it is, I have room in my budget for both for some other or higher-end parts. Given that, would your mobo suggestion remain the same? (the Z87-PRO is actually on a sale right now, so that's another possibility)
Asus is fine, as long as you understand the limitations of how the headers are, and you connect the fans (or buy fans accordingly) then you should be fine. I personally prefer pure bios fan control, but fanXpert2 will take the R4 fans to 400rpms, and the macho to 600rpm, where it should end up very quiet and still perform well. Here it really comes down into what you want, this is my main hobby for me, so i tend to overspend a lot, not something that i recommend to others.

chaohuei wrote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "low profile" means, then. I'd broken up height into three categories: high profile, "standard," and low profile. (I linked to the first examples I could find) Am I being too divisive in my categorization?
I think over time the term low profile has degenerated because for years we have been using tall memory that we consider that as the standard, so now manufactures like Corsair market their standard as low profile, but in reality low profile is the one that barely reaches the latches on the memory slots.

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 Post subject: Re: CPU/Motherboard + Build Advice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Looks like AMD needs a new memory controller before they can fix the multi-monitor GDDR5 doesn't idle problem. The rebadged parts exhibit the same "feature" as the 7xxx.

low profile: really, any RAM that doesn't have a heatspreader that looms over the circuit board should clear any cooler.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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