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 Post subject: Panaflo L1J?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:56 pm 
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I just bought 3 more Panaflo FBA08A12L1As but they all seem to be labelled FBA08A12L 1J. Anyone know what's up with that? J doesn't seem to stand for anything on the spec sheet.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/appliance/pdf/fancommon.pdf


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:14 am 
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Looks like you stumped everyone so far! (Me included :) )

I'll bump this back up for you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:38 pm 
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bondiablo, can you copy your label verbatim, line by line?

I have one Panaflo that is labelled:

9H27AD-1J
MODEL FBA08A12L
DC12V 0.1A


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:05 pm 
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I bought 2 fans from SVC.com here described as:
80x25mm Panaflo 24CFM 3-pin Fan (L1A) Ultra Quiet

The fans I received have this in the center of each fan:

Panaflo DC Brushless

OG26AN-1J
FBA08A12L
DC12V 0.1A

Matsushita Electronics
Made in Japan

Never having bought this fan before I assumed this was normal labeling for an 'L1A' fan. But, this post seems to imply that it isn't.
So, to be sure, let me ask, is this the expected labeling for an 'L1A' fan?

Thanks,
Lilla

Thanks, Lilla


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:43 am 
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I thought I saw the 1J suffix on some Panaflos before too. Went through my box, only 1A and 1BX. Found them on eBay though.

I remember Dorothy (or her husband) mentioning that production has been moved to China. Anyone seen Panaflos labeled Made in China? These might be either Panaflos made in China, or those still made in Japan.

Hopefully Dorothy can shed some light on this.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:53 am 
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o No difference between L1A & L1J
o 80mm L1BX are not in production
---- any are custom OEM order released to retail (eventually)
---- to order is a 16-24wk wait, and may be subject to MinOrderQty
---- that wait is subject to revision re factory scheduling
o 92mm L1BX are in production
---- I now carry them in 3-wire form

Of course, the Panaflo tacho isn't readable on every single motherboard
made - some have fan-monitoring chipset bugs (WinBond). Thus whilst
Intel & Supermicro and others are ok, some common boards are not.
The rpm buffer isn't flushed properly resulting in a "0" or "double-rpm"
reading which causes double-rpm spikes on rpm monitoring.

As a result I don't charge extra for the 92mm L1BX, and list them as
L1A/BX in that functionality depends on your motherboard re bugs.

The China plant (same equipment physically moved in some instances)
is turning out the same or better quality than those from Japan now. I
filter the fans in any case, so it's immaterial. H1BX in particular exhibit
the double-rpm issue on some Asus boards - but not others.

I suspect as BIOS upgrades filter thro, so bugs will get corrected.
The fans are compliant with the Intel whitepaper, chipsets interpret it.
The 92mm fans are good for forthcoming BTX cases & BTX motherboards,
the 80mm still have a strong niche re PSU, CPU, ultra-low noise case fans.
--
DB.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:55 pm 
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Lilla wrote:
So, to be sure, let me ask, is this the expected labeling for an 'L1A' fan?
Methinks it is. A shame bondiablo hasn't come back to say where the J is on his label, but just got 3 of my 'flos in front of me and the labelling is the same as yours & Elliot. Seems to me the 'FBA08A12L1A' as per the spec sheet only has 'FBA08A12L' on the fan itself. The line above is batch or some such - I have OL18AN-1J and OI18AN-1J, all 3 made in Japan.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:19 pm 
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o Noise spec is the "L, M, H, U"

o Anything after is an option code
---- eg, locked-rotor, tacho, solid corners
---- eg, connector type, tails, wire-type
---- eg, threaded brass insert fitted

The latter has nothing to do with the noise level,
or "that end of the fan" - it's OEM options etc.

For example:
o 1A is bare tails
o 1J is 2-pin plug as I recall
o 1BX is 3-wire bare tails, tacho
---- 80mm L1BX does not exist in production schedules
---- 92mm L1BX does however exist, SGI, SUN, Fujitsu & IBM use it

Bare tails are a PITA, someone has to sit there with a crimp tool &
then solder & then fit into the connector & fit them into the fan & test.
Unfortunately distributors tend to list them rarely if at all. Panaflo are
too expensive for PC integrators (like Papst), instead they go to the
partner of Panaflo which is NMB - they will customise the motor etc.
Panaflo tend to be the ultra-industrial end, NMB the economic end.
That said, NMB 80mm are 18-22ukp in the UK - mainly re bearings
which even SKF can't hold a candle to in quietness & pure precision.

Factory connectors are crimped on a press.
Aftermarket can be crimp or crimp-with-solder (which I use for security).

For the 4-pin Molex, always solder, they are not a great design - don't
know what Molex was thinking at the time. Expensive, large & shoddy.

Factory Panaflo connectors tend to be brown, mine are white.
That said I also use brown for 2-pin as a packaging differentiator.

There is a pink varient tho (glass fibre filled, for very high-temp :-)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:41 pm 
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so nmb 80mm fans have the best bearings made? Does this mean they are quieter than Papst and Panaflos when all are at low voltages or is there a negative side to NMB 80mm?

I have the same fans (1J) Lilla has, made in Japan, popped out the 2 pin connector and popped in a 3, no soldering is needed. Most of you know this is possible, but this maybe the reason why the 3 pin (1BX) is not made. Buy a 3pin extension cable to replace the 2 pin cord


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:52 am 
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No.
o NMB ball-bearings are above SKF ball-bearings
---- in general precision and quality - and also price

o Panaflo are a fluid bearing
---- more rugged than a ball-bearing whilst also being quieter
---- but it comes at price - cost, physical size & weight

As to which is better, well it gets hard to tell the difference
between the NMB 15dB(A) / 18cfm and the Panaflo 24M1A.
So it comes down to preference - and largely tonal frequency.

Fans such as Papst have other acoustic noises, and a very
large variation fan-to-fan, the older German Papst are best.

Hope that clarifies.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:05 am 
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
jafb2000 wrote:
o Noise spec is the "L, M, H, U"


Low, Medium, High, Ultra?

Edit: Hm, my first post, almost forgot I have to say something.

Hi all! And thanks for all the great info in these forums. I think I'll hang around for a while :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:42 pm 
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jafb2000, thanks for your posts. I'm clipping and saving the information you have posted, very helpful stuff for this newbie.

Trip wrote:
so nmb 80mm fans have the best bearings made? Does this mean they are quieter than Papst and Panaflos when all are at low voltages or is there a negative side to NMB 80mm?

I have the same fans (1J) Lilla has, made in Japan, popped out the 2 pin connector and popped in a 3, no soldering is needed. Most of you know this is possible, but this maybe the reason why the 3 pin (1BX) is not made. Buy a 3pin extension cable to replace the 2 pin cord


Trip, not me, I didn't know it was possible. I bought the extension cable in case I needed extra length, I had no idea that I could use the cable to upgrade my fan to 1BX. This is great news, because now I can experiment with RPM detecting with the fan.

I had originally wanted fans with RPM sensor mainly so I could experiment with the RPM sensing, especially since I am a newbie and I am interested in learning how things work. I have read the threads and as I understand it at the 5V the sensors don't work or are not reliable, so having the RPM sensor is not a biggie. But, now it looks like I can experiment with the RPM sensor stuff afterall.

I'm delighted to learn this. Trip, you made my day. Thanks for posting this.

Lilla


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:12 pm 
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Lilla, I think you got it wrong.
At least I didn't read it the way you did.

A few quotes from jafb2000 (that sells panaflo fans and know lots about them):
"No difference between L1A & L1J"
"1A is bare tails"
"1J is 2-pin plug as I recall"

So from what I read there is no easy way to get RPM monitoring on an L1J.
The only difference is that they are sold with a 2-pin connector and the L1A is sold (from factory) with bare tails. Some vendors equip the L1A with a plug before selling the fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:57 pm 
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That's correct - 2-pin plug.
--
Dorothy Bradbury


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:09 pm 
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fyi, I got my L1J with 3-pin tail, at no extra cost to me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:11 pm 
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Trip wrote:
I have the same fans (1J) Lilla has, made in Japan, popped out the 2 pin connector and popped in a 3, no soldering is needed. Most of you know this is possible, but this maybe the reason why the 3 pin (1BX) is not made. Buy a 3pin extension cable to replace the 2 pin cord


So, is Trip's statement above wrong then?
Or, is it possible that Trip received a fan with the RPM sensor in it?

Sounds like Trip and I bought the same fan (same numbers) from the same vendor, SVC.com

Thanks, Lilla


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:12 pm 
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jafb2000 : thanks for the information. Always learning more things from you.

silvervarg : I read it the same way as Lilla, actually, but figured I was confused and didn't respond. I know for a fact that you cannot plug in a 3 pin tail and get tach monitoring on a 1A, and I assume it's the same for the 1J. I'm not sure what that SVC link is about. It's exactly what Trip described it as - an extension cord. It doesn't connect directly to the Panaflo's tiny plug near the hub.

ecto: Welcome to SPCR! You're exactly right in the designation of L, M, H and U. I think there's also a V for variable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:16 pm 
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For what it's worth, I bought a 80mm M1A from SVC and received a M1BX. It says 1BX on the label, and has a 3 wire connector. I tested it on an Asus MB and it did send out the correct tach signal.

I've never bought a 1A labelled as a 1A and received a 1BX before. I suppose there's no harm in trying if you happen to have a 3 wire tail handy. I do know that someone who bought a M1A from Digikey a few months back tested it and it did not have a tach output. But I didn't know about the BIOS issue back then either, so it might have been that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:30 pm 
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ecto wrote:
jafb2000 wrote:
o Noise spec is the "L, M, H, U"


Low, Medium, High, Ultra?

Edit: Hm, my first post, almost forgot I have to say something.

Hi all! And thanks for all the great info in these forums. I think I'll hang around for a while :)

ecto, Welcome to the SPCR forums!

Check on the link in the first post in this thread for more info on the model number conventions of the Panaflo fan. 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:35 pm 
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lenny wrote:
I read it the same way as Lilla, actually, but figured I was confused and didn't respond. I know for a fact that you cannot plug in a 3 pin tail and get tach monitoring on a 1A, and I assume it's the same for the 1J. I'm not sure what that SVC link is about. It's exactly what Trip described it as - an extension cord. It doesn't connect directly to the Panaflo's tiny plug near the hub.


Trip and I have the same 1J fan and 12" 3-pin extension, we both purchased from SVC.com.

The fan came with a 2-wire (no rpm sensing wire) cable, the end that connects to the hub uses a 3-pin connector, the other end uses a 2-pin connector. I flipped this wire off, and compared it to the 3-pin 3-wire extension. The 3-wire extension can be plugged in at the hub, just as Trip said.

Now, as to whether than means there is an RPM sensor in the fan itself, that I cannot say. I am waiting on my motherboard, until then I have no way to know more.

Lilla

* edited * to correctly describe the cable that came attached to the fan.


Last edited by Lilla on Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:36 pm 
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Lilla wrote:
So, is Trip's statement above wrong then?


I'm not sure exactly what Trip means, but you cannot "create" a L1BX from an L1A just by swapping out the tail or adding a 3-pin connector. I tried it (see this thread for results) and the circuitry in the fans is not the same between the A and the BX fans.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:46 pm 
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dukla2000 wrote:
Seems to me the 'FBA08A12L1A' as per the spec sheet only has 'FBA08A12L' on the fan itself. The line above is batch or some such - I have OL18AN-1J and OI18AN-1J, all 3 made in Japan.

Mine are labeled the same way but some earlier Panaflos I have show 1A where yours, and the ones I bought recently, are showing 1J. I'm pretty sure this isn't just a batch number since that's the same place the 1BX appears on the BX versions I have.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:04 pm 
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o 1A/1J do not have tacho - they have locked-rotor
---- the code is referring to tail termination

o 1BX does have tacho - not locked-rotor

In theory there's no reason why motherboard chipsets could
not read the locked-rotor, it's just a BIOS (s/w) issue really.
In time they may do, since it is cheaper to implement.

Altho manufacturers focusing on cost will fit the cheapest fan
they can find, and as few as possible as BTX will no doubt show.
A cheap fan on a 1,000$ PC costs still something re profit, but
as that PC gets cheaper to 500$, the fan is a major profit factor.

Papst suppliers are actually dropping a lot of tacho models, as it
pushes the price up and people buy less - so pushing price up more.

Have fun :-)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:13 pm 
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Jab2000, thanks for the explanation.

Aphonos, good detailed experiment. Thanks.

I understand now, it's not happening with this fan. So be it.

Lilla


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:12 pm 
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Thanks lenny and aphonos! I'm sure I'll spend a lot of time here in the future.. in fact I already do, heh. :)

Just an idea (I know nothing about how fans work, so sorry if this sounds stupid), but would it be possible to switch the circuitry in a 1A with the circuitry from a 1BX? Or, make one yourself?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:44 pm 
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Sorry if I caused some confusion, I was just now notified of the new posts. I think AOL is still filtering my SPCR mail...

When I bought the Panaflos from svc.com I received a 2 pin connection. They are the same model as Lilla described. I replaced the 2pin wire with a 3 pin extension that I bought to extend the fans. The 2pin connection would not fit a 3pin connection, so switching the wires was a huge help. Not all fans allow 2 pin and 3 pin wires to be switched out so I thought it'd be a helpful comment. Actually, the Panaflo is the only fan I've seen that does this.

I'd check and see if the RPM monitoring was possible through my mobo, but the Via MissionControl software or mobo sensors don't work correctly. Tested it with several fans as well as my PSU fan monitor, no success...

Lilla, it sounds like these fans don't work for RPM monitoring, but would you mind checking yours with the extension plugged in?

Actually some of you who have posted may have tested this as well; any answers from personal experience would be welcome.

Heh, if I ever post something that sounds a bit off and I don't respond, feel free to PM me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:59 pm 
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Trip wrote:
Actually some of you who have posted may have tested this as well; any answers from personal experience would be welcome.

Heh, if I ever post something that sounds a bit off and I don't respond, feel free to PM me.

It seems AOL is not only filtering your email, it is affecting your ability to read carefully. :wink: See my remarks about 5 posts up from this one.

Also, it is not very clear from your post as to what you are actually switching around and how you are doing it. Pics might help, but in any case, I highly doubt you are going to end up with RPM monitoring on your fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:15 am 
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I did the same thing you did. Heh, so the word I was looking for was "hub"? I pulled the 2 pin wire out of the hub and put in a 3 pin wire. Not worth pictures, but y'know that was a big discovery for me...

Interesting quote from yahoo store page

"Panasonic Part No. FBA08A12L1A or PABA08A12L1J used interchangeably, depending on the market availability."

aphonos wrote:
It seems AOL is not only filtering your email, it is affecting your ability to read carefully. See my remarks about 5 posts up from this one.


:lol: Sorry bout that, it's finals week, you know how it is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:26 am 
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jafb2000 wrote:
For example:
o 1A is bare tails
o 1J is 2-pin plug as I recall
o 1BX is 3-wire bare tails, tacho...

Oh and I forgot to mention, oddly enough both the 1A, 1J and even 1BX labelled fans I have all came with bare tails the only difference of course being the 1BX had 3 wires and the others just 2. None of them had a 2pin plug.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:01 pm 
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ecto wrote:
Just an idea (I know nothing about how fans work, so sorry if this sounds stupid), but would it be possible to switch the circuitry in a 1A with the circuitry from a 1BX? Or, make one yourself?

I've read somewhere that the tach output is provided by a hall effect sensor. Here's some more information on tach outputs. I'm not sure how easy it is to modify the circuitry on a 1A - I haven't been using the Panaflos long enough to have one fail on me yet, and I'm unwilling to sacrifice one in the name of science :-)

There is at least one thread on how to build an external tach sensor for a fan, but a casual search did not turn it up. You plug your fan into this circuit, and this circuit into your MB. From what I recall, it's cheaper getting a fan with tach output.


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