I have succeeded in silencing my machine. Thanks all

Post by **MikeC** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:09 pm

sthayashi wrote:Why does that sound like the craziest solution yet? I'm going to end up turning the front of my computer into Swiss cheese with all the airflow paths going on. I'll give it a shot. I don't think I'm going to have time this evening to try out all these ideas, let alone find out which one works.

I'm also going to have to try and find a bunch of filters.

No crazier that what Apple did with the G5 -- several straight-through in-line cooling zones.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:14 pm

Okay, after looking at pictures of your setup, I have one strong suggestion to make. I expect controversy, but I'll make it anyway.

In addition to opening up the intake by all means possible, I would recommend switching heatinks to the big Alpha PAL-series. The reason: they are designed to pull air through the heatsink instead of pushing it. That way, that insane amount of CPU heat isn't redistributed all over your motherboard and video card. My guess is that your mobo temperature sensor is located somewhere in the path of the air being blown through the Thermalrights, and that's why you're observing extra-high case temps as well.

I wouldn't recommend just switching fan directions on your current heatsinks, because the SLK's in particular don't respond well to that.

Then, once that's done, if you're really ambitious, you could set up a duct system to exhaust both CPU's out the back, or one out the back and one out the top (this wouldn't screw up your case airflow like a non-ducted blowhole would).

SpyderCat · Post by **SpyderCat** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:57 pm

Putz wrote:Okay, after looking at pictures of your setup, I have one strong suggestion to make. I expect controversy, but I'll make it anyway.
.....
Then, once that's done, if you're really ambitious, you could set up a duct system to exhaust both CPU's out the back, or one out the back and one out the top (this wouldn't screw up your case airflow like a non-ducted blowhole would).

I was biting my tongue, and didn't dare to suggest it ....

I second this idea !

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Mon May 10, 2004 1:18 pm

Man I wouldn't chop any more holes in the front. You'll just hear the computer noises better, which is what SPCR tries to avoid at all costs. Since by merely opening the side panel, temps are reduced......I bet a large passive vent on the bottom is all you need, filtered or not. You say the case is already raised......Try a large vent in the bottom first. You can always cover it up later, if it doesn't work out.

Alternately.....how about adding an 80mm or a 92mm slow-turning fan to the side panel. You could add a flat duct covering the fan with an opening toward the rear of the case. This would cut down on the noise.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:09 am

Ok, I've done several things:
1) Cut out the fan grills on the front and back. Eventually, I need to take a file to them so that I won't cut myself again.
2)Sleeved two lines on my power supply (I ran out of sleeving).
3) Reapplied Ceramique a la NgTechnik style.
4) Mounted the SLK-800A PROPERLY. I had it on backwards before, but I don't think it was affecting anything.
5) Open the PCI bracket under the video card.
6) Reinstall a 92mm Zalman fan that I had lying around in the front.
7) Reversed the drives so that the connectors are on the same side as the motheboard.

Cleaned up the PSU cables as best I could. It's still messy next to the drives, but it's better. I don't know if it can ever be perfect.

At the time of this writing my temps are:
Case 42C
CPUs 52C
Ambient 27

Jesus, all that work, and it changes by 3 degrees (note: I haven't turned down any fans yet. With the exception of the Zalman, they're all operating at full speed).

Does anyone think that I'll be better off using heatsinks like the Nexus AXP-3200 or the Arctic Cooling Copper Silent? They're smaller and they may have better airflow. Thanks.

Update: I've turned down the 120mm fan to 5V. We'll see how much temps rise due to this.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:51 am

Does anyone think that I'll be better off using heatsinks like the Nexus AXP-3200 or the Arctic Cooling Copper Silent? They're smaller and they may have better airflow.

No, but something like the uni-directional pins of Alpha or Scythe HS would probably give better results.

Also, while you made 2 improvements to intake airflow -- removable of front grill and addition of front fan -- it's still a long way to the CPU area through the resistance of the HDDs and cables.

Just pop open the bottom 1 or 2 CD bay cover, keep the front bezel door open, and see what happens.

You would probably get better results with a side cover vent directly over the CPUs. Antec offers some fan-vented covers, but none for the 3700, and the hole is sited too low anyway (for the VGA?)-- http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details ... odID=77305

Tigr · Post by **Tigr** » Tue May 11, 2004 12:53 pm

You know, I would really try to exhaust the CPU heat directly. Since you do not have 2 80mm fans in the back, just make a duct from the exhaust fan over the 2 CPUs and turn the CPU fans to suck the air through the blades. See what happens. If it shows any improvement, you could actually either make a "combined" duct to your exhaust or change that fan at the back to 2 80mm and duct to them. Give it a try, let's see if it shows any interesting changes.

esn · Post by **esn** » Tue May 11, 2004 1:35 pm

sthayashi wrote: As I've mentioned before, I don't have Heatsink mounting holes in my motherboard. This alone limits the variety of heatsinks that I can use. One thing that I do have on my motherboard is potential places for mounting holes. All the places where the WOULD be a hole looks like a hole that has been soldered in. I have given some thought as to desoldering or drilling these pseudo-holes, but I don't want to destroy my motherboard. Has anyone heard any success or failure stories about people putting holes in their MB?

Don't drill your MB. I repeat, don't do it!

I spent many years designing PCB's. If the hole has a solder plug in it, then it's most likely a via used to transfer a trace (wire) from one layer to another. One potential outcome from drilling these holes would be breaking the connection. Holes large enough for mounting hardware may be solder plated but most likely won't be solder plugged; the hole is just to large to plug. Also, if you are drilling a hole through power and ground planes, then you will most likely smear the copper planes on to the surface of the hole thereby creating a short.

These are just a couple potential outcomes. MB's are densely routed, multi-layer boards. It is likely that if you don't already have mounting holes in the board, then you have no safe place to drill, especially near the CPU and NB.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Tue May 11, 2004 3:04 pm

3) Reapplied Ceramique a la NgTechnik style.

What, no 20 degree C reduction in temps with "perfect" compound application? I AM SHOCKED!!

Sorry, I can't help myself

I tend to agree with the other posters. Try front/side case panel removal to see how much can be gained from better airflow; beyond that, possibly experiment with direct CPU ducting and "suck" heatsinks (Alpha or Scythe).

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue May 11, 2004 3:58 pm

With the 120mm fan at 5v, the temps are:
Case: 49C
CPU: 60-61C
Ambient: 28C

That's probably good enough for me. The case temps are high, but I don't know if it's anything to worry about. I don't think it is.

Hopefully, everyone here understands why I'm a bit puzzled about advice to follow. MikeC, SPCR master, suggests removing drive covers and using that as additional intake. Bluefront, Case Mod Master, suggests not doing that since it will reduce sound dampening.

The Scythe looks heavy. 690g. How much does a case fan weigh (since my HS weight = SLK-800A (505g) + M1BX)? The Alpha S-PAL8045/55 looks worthwhile to pursue. Especially since it may give me room to install an ACVGAS w/o having to make my own mounting bracket.

As for ducting, I'm going to have to take a trip to Home Depot before I even THINK about ducting. From the looks of things, it may not be necessary either.

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:05 pm

The Alpha heatsinks will not work because they require the four mounting holes.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:21 pm

Unfortunately, AndrewC is correct -- the Alphas need the holes. I regretfully neglected to check if you had mounting holes when I originally suggested the Alpha mod. However, there are many other heatsinks that will work well in a "suck" configuration, and I've already suggested that I think that change (from "blow" to "suck") would be a large step in the right direction for your particular setup.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:25 pm

But... but..... but..... Alpha doesn't think so

Alpha wrote:The S-PAL8045/55 no longer requires the 4 holes surrounding the socket for mounting. The heat sink mounts to a custom bracket attaches directly to the socket. Also, the base shape has been modified to accomodate the entire AMD keepout area.

Still, just because Alpha says so, doesn't mean that my local online retailer will agree. Oh well....

Also, the Scythe Samurai looks a lot lighter than the Kamakaze, and may be comparable in weight to the SLK-800A. Definitely worth a look see for me. Hopefully that doesn't require 4 mounting holes.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:38 pm

Oh, good! My bad, then.

Give the Alphas a try!

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Tue May 11, 2004 5:16 pm

You could try this Swiftech. It does not require the four holes, and I think it would work just fine in the "suck" mode. As a benefit a 92mm fan will fit right on. I've used these before.....fantastic heatsink.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:13 pm

Damn... Which should I try? I only have a finite amount of money here, and not that much at that.

Samurai is REALLY cheap ($58.48 from Newegg)
Alpha is relatively cheap. ($69.98 from Newegg)
Swiftech is expensive. ($91.78 from Newegg).

At this point, if it can get me the same performance as what I have now, I'll be happy since that way, I can use an ACVGAS and return to the pleasant silence I once had.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:22 pm

SEVENTY BUCKS for the Alpha? Holy jumpin' jesus! $60 for a Scythe Samurai isn't what I would call a bargain either. WTF?

Oh wait you mean x2 for dual. Heh. Yeah, $25 for the Samurai -- I'd go with that, personally. The exact make of the HSF isn't as important as the fact that it is "suck friendly" and therefore amenable to ducting. Direct ducting of the CPUs should make a HUGE difference in temps.

Plus, this would be one of the cooler mods I've seen; I don't think I've ever happened upon anyone that put two ducts in the side of a case for dual CPUs. It would be cool*.. and you want to be cool, don't you?

* Fonz cool. Not temperature cool.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue May 11, 2004 7:11 pm

sthayashi --

I specifically suggest the Kamakaze because of its omni directional pins; the Samurai is quite directional, with thin close fins.

As for the front CD bay cover -- it's not as if I am saying to do it without considering results -- it is so easy to TRY so why not, to see what happens to temps & noise?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:28 pm

Shoot, I meant the Kamakaze, the Alpha clone.. this one:

After many discussions here at SPCR, we've established that the "suck" configuration only works better (than "blow") with the tall pin type heatsinks (see above), of which there aren't many on the market.. in fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any other than the Alpha and the Kamikaze.

After digging through some Kamakaze reviews-- it's so hard to find a single comprehensive source, because nobody normalizes to a standard fan, so you can never tell what the C/W results really mean-- it looks like switching the fan orientation to suck on a "typical" heatsink isn't a huge performance loss (in reference to the Alpha):

Incidentally, the fan should correctly be installed to suck air upwards through the heatsink, not blow air downwards onto it. In the picture of the assembled cooler above, the fan's upside down. Mea culpa. I tested both arrangements and the difference between sucking and blowing is 5% at most, but you might as well have that extra 5% as not.

http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp.htm

So, perhaps you can just reverse the fans on your existing heatsinks? You will pay a small performance penalty, but on the other hand, I GUARANTEE the all-copper SLKs you have will outperform any thin-pin aluminum hybrid by a measurable margin. And once you factor in the ducting performance increase..

SLK-800 w/ M1BXs @ full throttle w/ Zalman Fanmates

I am using the ALpha 8045 and SLK-900 for comparison here, they are both in the same ballpark as the Scythe and SLK-800 respectively:

Dan's Data C/W numbers:

Alpha 8045: 0.61 c/w "slow fan" 0.56 "fast fan"
SLK-900W: 0.47 c/w (with "sunon 2.9w fan")

While the jury is out on what those loosey-goosey fan metrics mean, CLEARLY the all-copper finned SLK is a far better HSF design than pinned aluminum with Cu bottom. Reversing the fan on the SLK-800 will hurt temps, but I'm beginning to seriously doubt whether it will hurt them enough to compensate for its innate thermal superiority..

Hmm.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:56 pm

I really don't think the SLKs will respond well to the "suck" configuration as they are. Perhaps if you hacked together some kind of shroud to cover the top half of the fins, they might be acceptable.

I think any of the three heatsinks you listed would work fine. I personally wouldn't go for the Swiftechs, as I'm sure they won't be enough better than the Alphas or Scythes to justify the price difference. However, even the Kamikaze should be plenty up to the task of adequately cooling your CPUs without propagating their heat throughout the rest of your computer components.

Basically, with these mods, your CPU temps themselves probably won't be incredibly lower than they are at the moment (though my bet is that they will decrease somewhat). However, after getting "suck-friendly" heatsinks, potentially ducting them, maybe trying a fresh air channel through the CD-ROM bays, and adding an ACVGAS, you'll end up with better case temps and a quieter system overall. It's worth a shot, anyway!! If you can quiet that system to generally-accepted SPCR standards, now that would be quite an accomplishment!

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue May 11, 2004 9:50 pm

MikeC, the reason I WAS reluctant to do that is because I thought that the sheet metal covering behind the bezel was going a long ways trapping noise. I say was because I just tried it now by removing 2 drive bay covers.

The temps dropped rather dramatically. I was able to reduce the speed of the CPU fans. Now, I have no idea what speed they're at. It's about halfway on the Zalman Fanmate. The current temps are:
Case: 49C
CPUs: 56C
Ambient: 28C

Now, the most audible component is the video card fan. The Kamakaze seems a bit on the heavy side to me. How much heavier is it than an SLK-800+80mm fan (or IS it heavier?) I'm already putting a hefty load on my motherboard, and I do worry about getting anything heavier. Though the Alphas are comparable in weight as the SLK-800.

Hmm... Time to see if I can afford to spend another hundred bucks or so this month.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:43 pm

sthayashi -- AHA!

So now that you can reduce the fan speed the overall effect is lower noise than before, right? This is one of my general observations: Reduce the noise at the source; it takes so much more effort to block the noise once it is released.

Wumpus --

Amazing that you don't see the Kamakaze review right here at SPCR -- "normalized to a standard fan" in the manner established by SPCR with the very first HS review.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article93-page1.html

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:55 pm

sthayashi,

Looking at the board layout, one thing always comes back at me. The lower CPU is in such a place that, with the fan blowing *down* on the sink, the hot air has no place to go.

How about changing only ONE HSF? On the CPU near the gfx? It'll allow you to try a sucksink + exhaust duct, it'll allow you to use a ACVS. If it works, your hotspot will have TWO major heatsources in the worst area removed and the top SLK might have an easier time doing its job?

Don't forget, AS will require time to settle down and even in the hottest cases it goes down by two degrees C so factor that in too.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Tue May 11, 2004 11:50 pm

Ah, I forgot about the review here.. looks like my analysis was correct, though:

The Kamakaze's C/W stats with the Panaflo puts it close to the Zalman 6500-AlCu and the Thermalright AX-478.

I know from personal experience (swapping HS in an otherwise identical machine) that the SLK-900 does 5c better than the AX-478, and assuming direct die contact (read: no interfering heatspreader layer), the heatpiped SP94 will give another 5c on top of the SLK-900.

We can also see that here with AX478 and SLK-800 side by side:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article47-page6.html

I'm still thinking that reversing the fan on the SLK-800 will give results no worse than a "suck friendly" pin-fin heatsink, due to the innately greater thermal efficiency of the SLK. Plus it's cheaper! Nothing to buy, just flip some fans and, er, drill two duct holes

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:30 am

MikeC wrote:sthayashi -- AHA!

So now that you can reduce the fan speed the overall effect is lower noise than before, right? This is one of my general observations: Reduce the noise at the source; it takes so much more effort to block the noise once it is released.

Actually, I don't know if the noise level really went down that much since the noisiest component is the Video card fan. But cooling certainly improved by a lot, which pretty much runs contrary to what I had thought. I figured that it was best to get air from only one spot, hence the duct tape sealing every extra hole I could find. My rationale was that the tighter the opening, the more wind it would generate for the same airflow.

Also, I can see that I'm going to probably going to need a duct if I want to pursue the Kamakaze/Alpha setup. Which means I have to go to Home Depot soon (which also good because I should look for a light air filter for my new opening).

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:18 am

I don't think you need a duct, but rather that a duct would be the next logical extension of the method that I (and others) suggested. If it were me, I'd try the heatsink change first, and if it proves to give you a step in the right direction, then improve it with a duct. That said, don't let me get in the way of your initiative to move on the ducting idea!

burcakb might have been on to something when he suggested just changing one heatsink. If shipping isn't a major factor in the price of the units, that might be worth a go, to limit your financial risk.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:18 am

Well, I've ordered 1 Alpha and 1 ACVGAS. Hopefully I won't f*** anything up when I install the ACVGAS. Otherwise, I'll cry.

I went with the Alpha because it has a better reputation than Scythe and it doesn't weigh much more than the SLK-800 (about 100g less than the Kamakaze after the fan weight is included).

And, if the Alpha does fantastically well, maybe I'll get a second one.

I'm willing to blow $35 bucks on myself just to experiment. Though I should probably figure out what to do with all the other old heatsinks that didn't work as well as the SLK-800.

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:26 pm

sthayashi wrote: But cooling certainly improved by a lot, which pretty much runs contrary to what I had thought. I figured that it was best to get air from only one spot, hence the duct tape sealing every extra hole I could find. My rationale was that the tighter the opening, the more wind it would generate for the same airflow.

Just a quick comment-- now that you have a big opening up top, you may want to check your HD temps. Before, all your intake was travelling across the drives. Now I'd bet that most is coming in the top openings and you're drives may be heating up...

Dave

EDIT spelling

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:37 pm

dasman wrote:Just a quick comment-- now that you have a big opening up top, you may want to check your HD temps. Before, all your intake was travelling across the drives. Now I'd bet that most is coming in the top openings and you're drives may be heating up...

I'd need to check again, but the Handmark test showed that the drives were not particularly hot. I'm not sure where to probe it for more meaningful results. Is there a drive temperature tool that can read through a Raid card?

I'm not too worried about the drive temperatures though. Remember that there is a 92mm Zalman @ 5v blowing in on the lower intake, so airflow isn't critically reduced. I should probably take some new pictures for you guys so you can see my handiwork.

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:59 pm

sthayashi wrote: I'm not too worried about the drive temperatures though. Remember that there is a 92mm Zalman @ 5v blowing in on the lower intake, so airflow isn't critically reduced.

I forgot you put the fan back...

Regarding drive temps through IDE raid cards - I have the same problem with my promise RAID card -- it ends up that promise does not pass the info back for a software utility to read. This made me search for what else is out there that might work. Per each companies tech support:

Adaptec -- no
Promise -- no
Highpoint -- no
3ware -- yes

So I've got a 4 port 3ware 7506 series card on my wish list right now...

Dave