Palomino vs Thoroughbred

[poizen]

Hi Guys !

Recently, I accidentally fried my athlon xp 1700+ (palomino).
Needing to buy a new cpu (Arrrggghh... ) I started looking around for the cpu (AMD - palomino or Thoroughbred) with the lowest thermal demands, in order to cool it easier.

Here's some stats for the 1700+ cpu:

Code: Select all

                        Palomino    Thoroughbred
                        --------    ------------
Manufacturing Process	0.18-micron 0.13-micron
Die Size			       128 mm^2    80 mm^2
Voltage			        1.750V		1.50V			(For the 1700+)
Maximum Thermal Power	64W			49.4W			"

For the full stuff, go to:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1635&p=4


Given this figures, one can see that the Thoroughbred core dissipates ~30% less power\heat.
HOWEVER, the die size has decreased by roughly 40%.
One can also see that the voltage has been also decreased (undervolting, anybody ?) by ~15%.

Now, the question is:
How does all this add up ? which is cooler (ACTUAL temp. wise) ?

Or, in a simpler phrase:
Does the 30%+15% decreases makes up for the -40% die shrinkage ?

PS:
I know this matter is a bit more complicated then that - just wrote it loosely for easy reading.

My guessimate is that the palomino larger die size prevails...
Anybody knows (preferably 1st hand info\experience, or some article\review on the web) the same\any differently ?

[iskra]

well,I've never had a Palomino,but I've just switched from a TBird 1.33
(rated 70w) to an xp2400 tbred b (rated 68w).I was worried about the
die size difference too,but was amazed that at stock speeds,using the
same heatsink on the same setup,the 2400 was 12-13C cooler than
the Tbird.The tbreds run very cool indeed,but it depends how little
vcore it takes to run them.I've tried two 2400s in this PC,the first
would run stock speed at 1.62v,but the second needed 1.72v and was
6C hotter.But still 6C cooler than the Tbird! I think you'll find the
tbred 1700 will be a lot cooler than the palomino,especially if it's
a "b" core (I don't know if these are available at that speed yet,but
probably are).

[Bat]

Check that your motherboard can work with the new processor. It might not work with thoroughbreds, or only with thoroughbred A models, not B.

[Rusty075]

Buy the thoroughbred.


Simple answer to a complicated question, I know.

I own both currently, in speeds ranging from 1800 to 2400.

The reduced die size hasn't made much a difference to the effieciency of cooling in my experience. It may be due to the more efficient heat transfer through the core on the thoroughbreds, but I'm not sure. (something about copper layers instead of aluminum inside the core)

Before you upgrade check for a bios update for your board, just to be sure.

Another benefit of the T-breds is that they're unlocked by default, which allows for simple underclocking.

[Luckystrike]

I've also recently upgraded from a 1200 T-bird to a 1800 T-bred & have experienced similar results. I had to specifiically shop around for a T-bird & paid a little more for the retail boxed version with HSF & 3 year warranty rather than the cheaper OEM Palomino no HSF & only 1 year warranty.

I had my 1200 T-bird undervolted to 1.66v & it put out max 46C under full load with undervolted fans. The 1800 T-bred runs at 1.55v but puts out 62C max under full load but is in a new compact case configuration.

I'd still opt for a T-bred, Palomino is old technology - I made the mistake once of getting a P4 Willamite core rather than the newer northwood core. I ended up getting rid of the entire system & am going to stick with newer 0.13 technology.

Sorry no technical formulae, just IMOHO.

[poizen]

Thnx guys !

Gonna buy the t-bred.

My motherboard (ASUS a7v-266e) will support up to 2600+ with a bios update, so it should be ok (my current bios supports the t-bred @ 2200).

BTW, it would be nice if someone could actually do a head-to-head comparison (with cpu's at the same speed)...

[Rusty075]

I'd be happy to do a head to head comparison for you.


I already have a 1900 Palamino, so just send a 1900 T-bred to me and I'll let you know how they compare.



But seriously, good luck with the upgrade. Have you decided what HSF you're going to use?

[Storm]

i had a palamino 1700 with a thermalright slk800 and a 7v antec fan (less cfm than 7v panaflo).
i had to undervolt and underclock the palamino to 1.60v and 1197mhz just to get 45oC idle and 52oC load

sold the palamino and bought a 1700 T-bred (lol) same motherboard, same cooler+fan
almost default speed (1440mhz) undervolted to 1.40v ... idle 38oC and load 42oC

im actually thinking of overclocking the cpu now...

[Red Dawn]

The reduced die size hasn't made much a difference to the effieciency of cooling in my experience. It may be due to the more efficient heat transfer through the core on the thoroughbreds, but I'm not sure. (something about copper layers instead of aluminum inside the core)

Just a small note to make here: AMD started using copper interconnects on early engineering sample K6-2 processors, however, those did not reach the market. The thunderbird cores that came after incorporated the new copper interconnects, actually AMD was ahead of intel with this, they got to using copper interconnects first, not that it matters now, but still, interesting stuff. Intel never got to it until the launch of the P4.

The main difference (set aside of pure design changes) is the usage of more metal layers in the cpu, when comparing palomino to thoroughbred. There is also the smaller die size which poizen stated, as well as the lower voltage. If you want to overclock this cpu somehow, the cpu stepping right now is supposedly AIUHB, reaching 2.4 ghz fairly easy, as this "tip" clearly states.

Good luck with your purchase!

[peaceful_moi]

I just upgraded from a Duron 950 (underclocked to 850) to an Tbred 1700 A (underclocked to 166*6.5 = 1079Mhz), and I was amazed to find the normal operating temperature to be about 18F lower.

I suspected that the temp. measurements were wrong, but now I just read about the S2K Bus Disconnect feature on the Tbreds that results in lower operating temperatures. Apparently the motherboard has to permit the implementation.

I don't see any BIOS control for this feature in my new ASUS A7N8X motherboard, but it certainly seems to be working.

Here the link. The information is about 1/2 way down the page, starting under the pictures of two heat sinks:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/cpu/athlonxp-3000/

[Rusty075]

I just upgraded from a Duron 950 (underclocked to 850) to an Tbred 1700 A (underclocked to 166*6.5 = 1079Mhz), and I was amazed to find the normal operating temperature to be about 18F lower.

Actually the lower temps aren't surprising at all. A Tbred 1700 puts out a max of 49.4W of heat, while a Duron 950 pumps out an even 50w. And your underclocking will make the difference even bigger, you underclocked the duron by 10%, while the Tbred is underclocked by a whopping 30%

[jojo4u]

Was somebody able to compare the idle temperature of a t-bred and a palomino with a very slow spinning fan - with vcool or similar software enabled? I am interested if the higher leakage current affects the idle temperatures.

[peaceful_moi]

I just upgraded from a Duron 950 (underclocked to 850) to an Tbred 1700 A (underclocked to 166*6.5 = 1079Mhz), and I was amazed to find the normal operating temperature to be about 18F lower.

Actually the lower temps aren't surprising at all. A Tbred 1700 puts out a max of 49.4W of heat, while a Duron 950 pumps out an even 50w. And your underclocking will make the difference even bigger, you underclocked the duron by 10%, while the Tbred is underclocked by a whopping 30%

The AMD data sheets that I am looking at indicate a Typical Thermal Power of 33.6W for the Duron 850 and 44.9W for the Tbred A 1700+ (significantly less, by the way, than the 55.7W for the Tbred B 1700+). If Thermal Power is linear with CPU clock, then I calculate a theoretical 33W for the Tbred @ 1079MHz.

To me, this is not enough difference to explain the 18F reduction in temperature. It seems much more likely to me that the S2K Bus Disconnect feature is the main difference.

I feel this S2K Bus Disconnect issue deserves more attention than it has received.

[jojo4u]

I feel this S2K Bus Disconnect issue deserves more attention than it has received.

Interesting how a new word arises: "S2K". Nobody knows what this actually means. It is not mentioned in the Barton Data Sheet. I bet it is not different to the disconnect used since at least the Thunderbird.
Grab Vcool or any similar software which has the function properly implemented und be happy.

[Rusty075]

Actually the S2K functionality goes back to the Durons. But it all depends on the chipset you're using, as well as the OS. All notebook chipsets support it, as does any Win2K kernal based OS. Support among desktop mobo's is hit and miss.

Running Vcool or CPUIdle will activate it on your system even if your motherboard doesn't support it.

Some Tech info from Vcool

[jojo4u]

Some Tech info from Vcool

I did a google on s2k. This is in fact the FSB also called EV6 AMD is using for all Athlons and Durons.

The Vcool informations are a little bit outdated since new VIA northbridges also disconnect the bus when the HLT mode is entered. That's the "Halt detect" in Vcool.

[peaceful_moi]

Actually the S2K functionality goes back to the Durons. But it all depends on the chipset you're using, as well as the OS. All notebook chipsets support it, as does any Win2K kernal based OS. Support among desktop mobo's is hit and miss.

Running Vcool or CPUIdle will activate it on your system even if your motherboard doesn't support it.

Some Tech info from Vcool

This is very helpful information. Apparently the newer desktop motherboards are supporting this function, and I'm very pleased.

(I may try the Vcool program on my "old" A7V/Duron system.)

Many thanks!

[Gandalf]

The TBRED is by far the cooler one of the two. The thing uses a lot less power, which results in a lot less heat. I think the default voltage for the tbred is 1.5volts, compared to 1.76volts for my Palomino 1700+...

[Beyonder]

Even though both processors might be equivalant in terms of difficulty to cool due to the reduction in core size, I would to with the t-bird simply because it dissipates less power. Overall, this is going to result in cooler case temps and probably a lower heat all together since you're dissipating that much less.

It's just as hard to cool either processor, but one dissipates more heat than the other in the end.

[SmallQuietComputing]

I ordered seven XP1700s. I wasn't expecting TBreds and was concerned from what I had read that the die size reduction would negate any reduction in heat generated by the TBreds. When they showed up, they were TBreds.

I will never ever again build a small form factor machine with a Palomino. I find the TBreds much much easier to cool, which is a particular concern in the Shuttle X boxes.

On Price Watch it appears to be the case that explicitly ordering a TBred costs about $10 more than not. Pretty soon there should be no difference in price.

Can anyone name a motherboard that supports the bus disconnect feature? I suspect that not supporting the feature helps keep the mobo manufacturers in good standing with Intel.

Is the power reduction significant enough to help keep a power supply runnnig easier, quieter and cooler?

TBird, TBred - kinda easily confused, eh?

[peaceful_moi]

Can anyone name a motherboard that supports the bus disconnect feature? I suspect that not supporting the feature helps keep the mobo manufacturers in good standing with Intel.

Is the power reduction significant enough to help keep a power supply runnnig easier, quieter and cooler?

Here a link that describes the temperature differential and motherboards that allow enable/disable. (My ASUS A7N8X apparently supports the feature, but provides no documentation on how to enable/disable.) The information is about 1/2 way down the page, starting under the pictures of two heat sinks:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/cpu/athlonxp-3000/

[jpsa]

I have a 1600+ palomino. would buy TBreds but my mobo doesn't seam to support it

[shunx]

Recently, I accidentally fried my athlon xp 1700+ (palomino).
Needing to buy a new cpu (Arrrggghh... ) I started looking around for the cpu (AMD - palomino or Thoroughbred) with the lowest thermal demands, in order to cool it easier.

If your CPU is under warranty and has no physical damage then I would ask AMD to replace it. I fried my XP 1800+ Palomino because my socket broke (my fault), and AMD gave me a new one after I RMA'ed it.