Why do some people tolerate noise more than others?

josephclemente · Post by **josephclemente** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:41 pm

As a teenager, I ran a BBS with four Seagate 20 meg ST220 MFM hard drives connected to my Commodore 64. It required two XT cases.

It was LOUD and the drives sounded terrible. I'm not sure if they were dying or not but they never stopped working.

I was able to sleep without any problem and tuned the noise out.

It's funny that now I can't stand excessive computer noise, even though the loudest modern computer's I've heard can't compete with my ancient setup for being as loud.

Kostik · Post by **Kostik** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:50 pm

MikeC wrote:Do I hear a note of sadism?

Oh but that was just for the sake of science

.

I think for most adults, frequencies above 17khz are inaudible. For frequencies between 15k and 17k it depends on the individuals. New born babies can hear up to 20k if I remember correctly.

Don't you have headphones ? It's interesting to do this test with headphones, this way you can see which of your ears has the highest treshold.

Zyzzyx · Post by **Zyzzyx** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:42 pm

Interesting software.

With my Logitech Z640s I was able to hear to 17k fairly easily. I think I could hear the 18k and some beyond, but hard to tell if its frequency or just noise from the speakers. (probably the latter).

hsdhman · Post by **hsdhman** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:53 pm

I really don't know where I fit in here.

My computer is not really what you'd call loud; my friend's computers are a lot louder. However, When I am using it in an otherwise silent environment, it really bugs me. I have actually found the spot to put my head where the reverberation cancels out the most sound possible, due to the odd shape of my desk. (It sounds crazy, but it works.)

Strangely though, during the English exam I wrote today, I was concentrating well in a silent library, and suddenly I see another student get up, open the library door, and shout to the noisy students outside to shut up. I realized then that the other students had already gone to break and were being VERY noisy. I was very surprised to see that I hadn't even noticed the noise that they were making!

Another strange aspect of sound - during the summer, (in winter it's too cold) I find it MUCH easier to sleep with the sound of a fan blowing in my room. However, I cannot sleep with the computer fans running. It's the strangest thing.

I too can hear the buzzing of a television even from several rooms away. My old CRT monitor used to bug me a lot. I got another CRT, but I cannot hear this one! It's the Accusync 95F, from NEC. The refresh rates are high (120-85hz from 1024*768 to 1280*1024).

Speaking of buzzing, my friend has an XP2700+ that emits a high-pitched whistle when the processor usage goes to ~100%. It is definitely the processor itself, not the fan. We stopped the fans for a second, but the whistling continues. It's not the PSU either. Anyone heard of this happening before?

So, I will continue pouring my hard-earned money into my computer to make it quieter. I'm hoping to purchase the following soon: Athlon64 3200+, CNPS7000Cu (would the Al-Cu be a better choice? It weighs MUCH less, and is cheaper.), the Antec P160 case (when it comes out), mobo/ram etc, a few QUIET fans, and a passive video heatsink. This would bring the total fans to 4, including the Silenx PSU (or possibly seasonic, but where in Canada?) Or should I save up a few extra dollars for watercooling? So many choices....

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:36 am

hsdhman wrote:Speaking of buzzing, my friend has an XP2700+ that emits a high-pitched whistle when the processor usage goes to ~100%. It is definitely the processor itself, not the fan. We stopped the fans for a second, but the whistling continues. It's not the PSU either. Anyone heard of this happening before?

So, I will continue pouring my hard-earned money into my computer to make it quieter. I'm hoping to purchase the following soon: Athlon64 3200+, CNPS7000Cu (would the Al-Cu be a better choice? It weighs MUCH less, and is cheaper.), the Antec P160 case (when it comes out), mobo/ram etc, a few QUIET fans, and a passive video heatsink. This would bring the total fans to 4, including the Silenx PSU (or possibly seasonic, but where in Canada?) Or should I save up a few extra dollars for watercooling? So many choices....

The processor buzzing is probably the mosfets on your motherboard working a little harder. I know for a fact that they sometimes emit high pitched sounds.

Also that sounds like a mean setup, the CNPS700CU is better than the AL-CU... and i have watercooling, its amazing and ive never regretted buying it! Silent cooling and amazing temps to match! - sounds too good to be true!

Also browser wise, yeah i used to get lost messages all the time in IE cos i browse alot of forums. (i always used to - and still do, do the ctrl c to copy the msg all the time) Nowadays i use mozilla firebird, its absolutely amazing browser, the tabbed browsing function is really good expecially for browsing forums, once you get used to it u wont switch back to IE. Firebird is basically a very very cut down browser and runs standalone from a single directory (no messing with registry etc...), it loads up very slightly slower than IE but renders webpages ALOT quicker. Theres even specific processor builds!

Seal

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:02 am

Seal wrote:
hsdhman wrote:Speaking of buzzing, my friend has an XP2700+ that emits a high-pitched whistle when the processor usage goes to ~100%. It is definitely the processor itself, not the fan. We stopped the fans for a second, but the whistling continues. It's not the PSU either. Anyone heard of this happening before?

So, I will continue pouring my hard-earned money into my computer to make it quieter. I'm hoping to purchase the following soon: Athlon64 3200+, CNPS7000Cu (would the Al-Cu be a better choice? It weighs MUCH less, and is cheaper.), the Antec P160 case (when it comes out), mobo/ram etc, a few QUIET fans, and a passive video heatsink. This would bring the total fans to 4, including the Silenx PSU (or possibly seasonic, but where in Canada?) Or should I save up a few extra dollars for watercooling? So many choices....

The processor buzzing is probably the mosfets on your motherboard working a little harder. I know for a fact that they sometimes emit high pitched sounds.

Yeah, I get that with my Intel 875PBZ when I'm running Prime95 but my Asus P4P800 doesn't do it, nor does an Abit IC7 that I was recently working on.

Seal wrote:Also browser wise, yeah i used to get lost messages all the time in IE cos i browse alot of forums. (i always used to - and still do, do the ctrl c to copy the msg all the time) Nowadays i use mozilla firebird, its absolutely amazing browser, the tabbed browsing function is really good expecially for browsing forums, once you get used to it u wont switch back to IE. Firebird is basically a very very cut down browser and runs standalone from a single directory (no messing with registry etc...), it loads up very slightly slower than IE but renders webpages ALOT quicker. Theres even specific processor builds!

Seal

IE definitely does suck. I'm a die-hard Opera user that switched to Firebird about 7 months ago and haven't looked back. It's the best browser I've ever used. I've never got that "Invalid session"error with Opera or Firebird but if I'm posting from an IE-only box it definitely does crop up now and again.

johnc · Post by **johnc** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:21 am

By complete coincidence, I am reading a book now that may have some standing in this thread.

"Consciousness: A User's Guide" (Adam Zeman, Yale University Press, 2003) has included some telling observations in the first 100 pages, and doubtless will provide more.

Re: "evoked brainstem potentials" p.92 -- "Provided your senses are healthy, an evoked response of some kind can be recorded whether or not you are paying attention to the stimulus, and even in sleep. An audible click, for example, gives rise to a characteristic series of scalp potentials as the response ascends through the brainstem from the point at which the auditory nerve enters the brain. The five robust peaks of the 'brainstem auditory evoked potential' (see Figure 3.5) flag a series of neuronal landmarks traversed by the auditory signals in the first ten thousandths of a second of their journey.
"By the time 300 thousandths of a second have elapsed things are rather different. The 'P300' is the most salient of a family of responses which are related not to the occurrence of the stimulus but to its significance. If you are asked to listen to a monotonous succession of 'beeps' punctuated every so often by a refreshing 'boop', the boop but not the beep will be greeted by an electrical signal. A missing 'beep' also gives rise to a P300, emphasising that this response springs not from the stimulus but from our expectations. If the same series of tones is played when you are absorbed by a book the brainstem auditory evoked potential persists, but the 'attentional' P300 disappears altogether."

What this passage seems to imply is that, at the most fundamental level, the nervous system response to sound involves pattern seeking, and that this process can be profoundly influenced by expectation and distraction.

I hope that one of our members is a psychoacoustician, or perhaps MikeC can recruit such an expert from UBC, to cast more light on this intriguing subject.

Off topic, but I cannot resist. Also from this fascinating book, a riddle that I have contrived: What can a human infant do at 18 months, a chimp at 2-3 years and a monkey can never do? Answer: .rorrim a ni flesti ezingoceR

John Coyle

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:42 am

Off topic, but I cannot resist. Also from this fascinating book, a riddle that I have contrived: What can a human infant do at 18 months, a chimp at 2-3 years and a monkey can never do? Answer: .rorrim a ni flesti ezingoceR

Ooh very clever John!

I've been trying to get my 8mo old kitten (she's getting BIG!) to recognize itself in the mirror, and I should have known it's a futile effort. This confirms it totally.

canthearyou · Post by **canthearyou** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:49 am

Funny you should mention those MOSFETS. Back in 1980 or so I bought my first stereo receiver, Pioneer SX-550, which I still have around. It uses MOSFET power transistors.

One day I decided to listen to the radio, and the volume was turned down, so I cranked it up, nothing. What? I cranked it up some more. I could hear music, very low, almost like a portable radio in the other room. It seemed to be coming from the receiver. So I put my head down on the top grille. It was those damn MOSFETS singing out like speakers!

What I had done was leave the speaker switch to OFF.

It sounded a lot like the music you can hear from the phono cartridge when the speakers are off, a low, tinny music. (Yes, I can hear that too while LP's are playing, even with the speakers running).

http://www.city-gallery.com/knoblock/av.html if you want to see the turntable.

Steve

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:40 am

I wonder how many people here are also

-very sensitive to lights, such as CRT flicker, florescent light, flashing from cieling fans;
very sensitive to touch, such as being easily tickled or irritated by the wrong touch;
very sensitive to taste or smell, such as able to notice (or finding annoying) faint smells others don't or able to identify ingredients in food by taste

and/or

-migraine sufferers

As a child, I was also able to tell from my bedroom if the TV was on downstairs even if the volume was off, and in the office have walked down the hall to find the CRT which was shrieking so loud because its computer was off. (I also had one in the office I could smack on the side, to sometimes quiet down a bit.

Florescent lights and crt's give me headaches, as do some movies in theaters (but not so bad with DLP or Imax.) Some crt's that look normal to others are strobe lights to me. Unfortunately, I find many "pleasant" scents, and some light touches, offensive.

Could be genetic--my sister calls herself an HSP, Highly Sensitive Person.
"Being an HSP means your nervous system is more sensitive to subtleties. Your sight, hearing, and sense of smell are not necessarily keener (although they may be). But your brain processes information and reflects on it more deeply."
This concept seems to also include emotional sensitivity.

I've heard that people who have migraines are often very sensitive.
Not sure if this is the right link for that, but if not, still worthwhile if you suffer from them:
Fresh Air Migraine Interview
Something about an experiment where most people can drown out an annoying sound (like endless telephone ring) after a while, but brain scan keeps showing a response for migraneurs.

Anyone ever seen/read The Fall of the House of Usher?

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aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:55 am

Likif wrote:There's another twist to this, sometimes excessive INtolerance to noise can provoke tinnitus. Tinnitus usually comes along with hypersensitivity to sound, or what doctors call 'monophobia'. If your CRT bothers you, a subway train braking will make your ears hurt. It's rather psychological.

Anyways, it's a known fact that if you put people without any hearing affliction in a dead room, most of them will report they heard some sort of tinnitus sound in there, be it a sine tone, or whooshing, or any other typical tinnitus. SPCR members are in the danger zone for tinnitus, even if you think you're not.

Bullseye. But also noted long ago in Stereophile magazine individuals with no hearing damage that could tolerate 120+ dB of sound easily often found the "nails on a blackboard" sound very painful, despite being nowhere near a loud volume.

As I tried to point out to people, hearing loss initially is not noticed as a loss of frequency. Rather it comes as a difficulty in say, being able to localize and understand a single human voice in a crowded bar. The whole thing becomes a mishmosh of sound that offers no useful information. It goes downhill from there. Older individuals may enjoy music more, or anything else more, because a quieter backround makes for easier understanding and clarity. For lack of a better term I would call this type of loss a "internally sustained for of IM, intermodulation" distortion. Tinnitus also has this effect. I feel I could hear certain frequencies clearly if the tinnitus was not there, or if I turn the volume up higher on the source of the sound.

Perceived volume levels differ as noted in tests, but also at home. That's why when you try to go to sleep in a quiet room, the leaking bathroom faucet all of a sudden bothers you a whole lot.

trinitrotoluene · Post by **trinitrotoluene** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:13 pm

michaelb wrote: -very sensitive to lights, such as CRT flicker, florescent light, flashing from cieling fans;
very sensitive to touch, such as being easily tickled or irritated by the wrong touch;
very sensitive to taste or smell, such as able to notice (or finding annoying) faint smells others don't or able to identify ingredients in food by taste

CRTs and florescents not so much, but ceiling fan flickers can annoy me (maybe just the shadows they create?).
I'm incredibly ticklish. Ever since I had an epiphany and started cooking better my ability to differentiate tastes has improved. Although I'm not sure if my smell sensors aren't very good or I just get confused by smells to easily (I'm guessing the former).

-migraine sufferers

I've heard that people who have migraines are often very sensitive.
Not sure if this is the right link for that, but if not, still worthwhile if you suffer from them:
Fresh Air Migraine Interview
Something about an experiment where most people can drown out an annoying sound (like endless telephone ring) after a while, but brain scan keeps showing a response for migraneurs.

My sister suffers migraines. I think she has some hyper-sensitivity at times. Maybe not her hearing though, cause she will be oblivious when trying to get her attention at times.

canthearyou · Post by **canthearyou** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:04 pm

16500hz is about the limit of my hearing or of the speakers (Altec Lansing 220 desktop).
15000hz is very annoying and loud to me, more so than lower freq's in the musical range.
40hz I can barely hear, 50hz okay, 60hz about the limit of comfortable audibility with these speakers

17000hz I can only detect a click when starting the tone

At 15000hz, the sine is least audibly annoying as an identifiable sound, triangle and sawtooth have a raspy quality (this is the waveform a violin generates). A monitor sweep might generate a more raspy sound. The sine may be the most subconsciously annoying because it is less "audible" once you acclimate to it, but it's still there.

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:36 pm

My discoveries via that software:

The sound stops dead at exactly 16000. The next step below that is very clear, but click it up one more time and its silence. That may mean that that's the limit of my speakers (Logitech Z540's)

My sub kicks in hard at 150Hz. It actually made me jump.

My desk has a natural resonance at 66.22Hz.

My sensitivity drops of at 25Hz.

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:55 pm

Got out my beloved old Grado SR60 headphones...

Amazingly, it has output even at ~18Hz. I can hear the difference switching the software on/off at the freq.

At 15kHz and beyond, either my headhones or my hearing or both are gone.

Post by **Rusty075** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:08 pm

Made another discovery.....

At 24kHz, the goldfish FREAK OUT. Very odd. Must be doing some bizarre resonating inside their tank. But one thing's for certain...they do not appear happy.

canthearyou · Post by **canthearyou** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:12 pm

Nakamichi SP-7
16500hz audible slightly as a tone, barely dectectable as a presence slightly above that. I guess 17kHz is max for me. That is pretty good. It must have been much better when younger because the 15kHz was much more audible from the TV ten years ago than now (age 39).

Now for the pipe organ.

I can feel 32hz from these. I don't hear it, but I can clearly feel it pulsing.
40hz is a barely audible tone.
64hz very audible.

The Naks are the best phones I've ever used and they have a very neutral sound, much better than most speakers. The only problem is the fit is so poor they make my ears hurt (physically) not from the sound after an hour.

BTW Mike, great site. I hope to tame this noisy computer of mine once I have read everything here.

Steve

hsdhman · Post by **hsdhman** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:26 pm

michaelb wrote:I wonder how many people here are also

-migraine sufferers

I have NEVER suffered from a headache in my 17 years of life

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:30 pm

Boy could I tell you about migraines. Not a one till I hit 25, then developed a weird sight problem & headache while playing squash one day, had a classic whole 9-yards migraine attack that lasted 6 hrs & left me weak & wondering what bizarre disease I had.

Nothing for another year till... told my mom about it passing: She told me she'd just been diagnosed as having had migraines for 20 years.

Soon after, they began in earnest. ~once a month for years, brought on mostly by stress and fatigue. I was once hospitalized for days. They put me out with tranquilizers for 48 hrs. When I woke up I still had the migraine! Not nearly as bad now that I am over the hill.

I don't think I am a "Highly Sensitive Person" but maybe I am close -- sometimes more than others.

wussboy · Post by **wussboy** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:56 pm

Headaches are a bit of a personal crusade for me. If you get headaches a few times a week, go see your local massage therapist. If they know what they are doing, they can fix them for you. I used to get headaches 3-4 times a week for years until a therapist found my suboccipital muscles http://biopulser.com/suboccpa.htm and made them go away. Now I've had 4 in 1.5 years. I think it's more common than people think, and doctors prescribe all kinds of nonsense for them. Just my 2 cents.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:41 pm

wussboy wrote:until a therapist found my suboccipital muscles

I'll ask a massage therapist I know about that.

There's also been some research into the corrugator muscles, which are cut in cosmetic surgery to reduce wrinkles. (A cosmetic surgeon noticed his patients were losing their headaches, and the research began.)
Hard to find good info on the net, other than some journal abstracts. But very exciting as a possible permanent solution.

(sorry if too off topic here.)

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:10 am

michaelb wrote:
wussboy wrote:until a therapist found my suboccipital muscles
I'll ask a massage therapist I know about that.

There's also been some research into the corrugator muscles, which are cut in cosmetic surgery to reduce wrinkles. (A cosmetic surgeon noticed his patients were losing their headaches, and the research began.)
Hard to find good info on the net, other than some journal abstracts. But very exciting as a possible permanent solution.

(sorry if too off topic here.)

My wife suffers from migraines and gets Botox treatments in her forhead about every 2-3 months. This completely gets rid of her migraines (but she doesn't have the super killer migraines that some get, hers are sort of "medium migraines).

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:50 am

michaelb wrote:I wonder how many people here are also

-very sensitive to lights, such as CRT flicker, florescent light, flashing from cieling fans;
very sensitive to touch, such as being easily tickled or irritated by the wrong touch;
very sensitive to taste or smell, such as able to notice (or finding annoying) faint smells others don't or able to identify ingredients in food by taste

and/or

-migraine sufferers

Amazingly CRT flicker dosent affect me much at all, i was once at home doing some work on my computer and my brother walkes past and says "OMG how come youve set your refresh rate to so low! That looks terrible!"

I was like... "What?", I had my refresh rate set to 60Hz! And when i put it up to 75Hz, what my brother called "acceptable" i didnt notice any difference. (although later down the line i noticed i didnt get as much eyestrain). Just looking at the difference, i really cant tell when a screen is on 60hz or 75hz.

Taste wise, i always love eating wierd and wonderfull foods, theres very little i will not eat or at least will not try! I find when it comes to food people are classed under 2 main categories: the bums: "i wont try that cos its got garlic in it so therefore it must taste foul" (i hate those), and the "braver ones", "ill give anything a try once" (within a reasonable margin - eg, frogs, snails etc...), im the 2nd one although i dont think ive come across a limit of foods i wouldnt try... ive tried, rabbit, snake and frogs before... not to mention the others...

michaelb wrote:Could be genetic--my sister calls herself an HSP, Highly Sensitive Person.
"Being an HSP means your nervous system is more sensitive to subtleties. Your sight, hearing, and sense of smell are not necessarily keener (although they may be). But your brain processes information and reflects on it more deeply."
This concept seems to also include emotional sensitivity.

Yieks! Very surprising, i didnt think i'd call myself very "Highly Sensitive" although i scored 16 on that test!

One question i did find interesting: "I am particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine." That was true for me, same can be said with me and alcohol, i dont really like it... or can drink much of it although i will have some very occasionally. How bout you guys?

Seal

Oh yeah, i havent tried the sound range test yet because im not at my computer, will try it later though!

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:53 am

Oooo, just found this on the www.hsperson.com website, quite interesting:

# This trait is normal--it is inherited by 15 to 20% of the population, and indeed the same percentage seems to be present in all higher animals.
# Being an HSP means your nervous system is more sensitive to subtleties. Your sight, hearing, and sense of smell are not necessarily keener (although they may be). But your brain processes information and reflects on it more deeply.
# Being an HSP also means, necessarily, that you are more easily overstimulated, stressed out, overwhelmed.

ruprag · Post by **ruprag** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:29 am

interesting stuff this program.

25 - 16500

my daughter hears from 20 - 18500 (possibly higher but the speakers cut out around 19000)

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:23 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:Botox treatments in her forhead about every 2-3 months. This completely gets rid of her migraines (but she doesn't have the super killer migraines that some get, hers are sort of "medium migraines).

Mine are medium but sometimes are frequent. I've been meaning to do more research on Botox-ing or snipping the corrugators, & talking w my dr, tho my insurance plan has this $10,000 deductable. (not kidding!)

Seal wrote:i didnt notice any difference. (although later down the line i noticed i didnt get as much eyestrain). Just looking at the difference, i really cant tell when a screen is on 60hz or 75hz.

this is an important concept to me...it took me a long time to learn that florescent lights were causing headaches, and years later, took some time to learn that movies do too. though i can often see flicker in films, and lots of shaking images, even when i don't notice these, there can be an effect. some florescent lights look horrible to me, others don't but still seem to cause headache, though not as much.

i think this applies to noise also...for me it won't cause migraines, but i think background noise stresses me even when i don't notice it.

Seal wrote:Yieks! Very surprising, i didnt think i'd call myself very "Highly Sensitive" although i scored 16 on that test!

I was surprised to score only 12, though my 5 senses are acute & can annoy me, and i consider myself emotionally sensitive for an American male. I see you're from the UK which might have increased your score?

... maybe the test should be adjusted for country and gender.

Seal wrote:caffeine." That was true for me, same can be said with me and alcohol, i dont really like it... or can drink much of it although i will have some very occasionally. How bout you guys?

I don't have much sensitivity to either, though I avoid caffeine since if I have lots then stop, I can get a headache when I stop.

hsdhman · Post by **hsdhman** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:26 pm

20 000 hz made me jump out of me seat (my speakers were on high volume and this was my first test, so I wasn't expecting it

)

22000 hz I thought I could hear, but my speakers' max is 22000hz, so I dunno.

16 hz was my lower limit. Any lower I could feel (sub) but not necessarily hear.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:03 pm

Yeah, the caffiene thing, i find that if i drink coffee or tea after about 6pm, it wont wear off before i go to sleep at around 12midnight and i will find it takes me alonger time to fall asleep which would be the caffiene keeping me awake!

hsdhman · Post by **hsdhman** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:01 pm

Well, it looks like I'll be pulling an all-nighter with my homework... I normally don't drink caffeine, but tonight it looks like I will.

Let's see how I can tolerate the computer fan at 5am!

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:53 am

michaelb wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:Botox treatments in her forhead about every 2-3 months. This completely gets rid of her migraines (but she doesn't have the super killer migraines that some get, hers are sort of "medium migraines).
Mine are medium but sometimes are frequent. I've been meaning to do more research on Botox-ing or snipping the corrugators, & talking w my dr, tho my insurance plan has this $10,000 deductable. (not kidding!)

My wifes' Botox treatments cost $185 and that lasts 2-3 months (usually closer to 3) and our insurance doesn't pay for it. $2/day seems like a cheap alternative to the pretty debilitating migraines she has. I just suck it up and pay it.