Seasonic S12-430: Beyond the Super Tornado

Webfire · Post by **Webfire** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:59 am

I'm just curious if you will also test the SS-400HT? If you'll test the SS-500HT you probably won't test the 400 Watt version. But hopefully the test of the 500 will give us a little bit information about the new circuit design.

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:49 pm

Seasonic USA said they would send me a sample of the SS400HT; this is the model that meets the 80 Plus spec. I am still not clear where/how this PSU is going to be distributed. The 500HT and 600HT are being (of have just been?) submitted for 80 Plus testing. One intersting point -- all three of these HT series use a dual-layer PCB to minimize in-circuit power lesses. AFAIK, usually, it is only server-quality PSUs use multi-layer PCBs.

jooppy · Post by **jooppy** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:07 pm

Hi

Can anybody confirm whether the 401HT is the same power supply as the S12-430? Looking at the specs they seem the same, with the major difference being the colour of course

Since the S12 is supposed to be a retail product, what exactly is missing from the 401HT that you would get with the S12 power supplies (besides a nice looking box)?

Cheers
Jooppy

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:21 pm

jooppy wrote:Hi

Can anybody confirm whether the 401HT is the same power supply as the S12-430? Looking at the specs they seem the same, with the major difference being the colour of course

Since the S12 is supposed to be a retail product, what exactly is missing from the 401HT that you would get with the S12 power supplies (besides a nice looking box)?

Cheers
Jooppy

With the Seasonic products, I think it is the model # rather than the model name which is absolute. IE, #401HT is definitely NOT a S12-430, which is #430HB. It is also not totally clear that the 300, 400 and 500 HT are part of the same series as the 301, 351 and 401 HT. I have asked for clarification on this.

Webfire · Post by **Webfire** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:29 pm

I contacted a german shop wich sells Seasonic psus and asked if they will sell the SS-400HT. Well they answered me that they will check the price and sell them if they come avaiable.
So hopefully next week I can tell you more if you can buy a SS-400HT.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:34 pm

Well, the 401HT is manufactured:
- with either a stamped or optionally a wire grill
- with either full range or fixed 220V input

Bulk PSU normally don't come with a power cable, converter cable, handy fan connectors and other loose pieces. But there is nothing stopping a more service oriented reseller from adding these. If someone orders enough of them (lets say >>1000pcs.), then he can probably request which and how much connectors it has. There is also a possibility that the twisted wires are not standard.

Of course all this is just reading the .pdf from the Seasonic website and using common sense. The bottom line is: If you find this for sale somewhere and they didn't specify these details, then you'd better ask the reseller for them. Lest you don't get disappointed.

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:41 pm

BTW, one thing to keep in mind about all SPCR PSU tests: They are conducted with 120VAC input. With 220~240VAC input (EU & most of Asia, AFAIK), PSU efficiency goes up by 2~3%.

What this means is that the Seasonic Super and S12 series (and a number of other PSUs we've tested) would probably meet the 80 Plus spec if they were run with 220-240VAC input.

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:42 am

MikeC wrote:BTW, one thing to keep in mind about all SPCR PSU tests: They are conducted with 120VAC input. With 220~240VAC input (EU & most of Asia, AFAIK), PSU efficiency goes up by 2~3%.

Can anyone explain why that's so?

StarfishChris · Post by **StarfishChris** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:30 am

Probably for the same reason mains electricity is transported across the country at 15,000V* rather than 15,000A - power loss is reduced.

*actual voltage varies with location. Do not test yourself with a voltmeter.

tabbal · Post by **tabbal** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:41 pm

Seasonic S12-430: Beyond the Super Tornado

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March 17, 2004 by Mike Chin with Devon Cooke

Do you mean 2005?

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:24 am

StarfishChris wrote:Probably for the same reason mains electricity is transported across the country at 15,000V* rather than 15,000A - power loss is reduced.

*actual voltage varies with location. Do not test yourself with a voltmeter.

Well .. no. That's because the powercables act as resistors (about 1Ohm/metre @ 1mm thickness I believe?), and thus raising the voltage to ludicrous levels prevents a really bad powerloss.

But I'd think that transforming a high voltage into a low voltage would be the cause of some additional powerloss. So if my logic is correct, 240v-12v would waste more power than 120v-12v. But apparently my logic is flawed :/.
Could someone be so kind as to correct it?

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:25 am

Webfire wrote:I contacted a german shop wich sells Seasonic psus and asked if they will sell the SS-400HT. Well they answered me that they will check the price and sell them if they come avaiable.
So hopefully next week I can tell you more if you can buy a SS-400HT.

Could you tell me which shop this is?

Considering I can't find a single Belgian shop that'll be selling them :/.

Webfire · Post by **Webfire** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:40 am

It's www.sh-edv-vertrieb.de
They don't have the new S12 Seasonics in stock yet but hopefully they will get them soon.
When I get the answer concerning the SS-400HT I will post it here.

François L. · Post by **François L.** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:53 am

Available at www.ncix.com (CDN$)
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php? ... lectronics

Seasonic S12-430: $115
Seasonic S12-430HB: $171

I would hate to buy the S12-430 and suddenly someone makes a review on the S12-430HB and says it's a better buy than the S12-430.

Any thoughts on that?

Thanks,

François

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:06 am

François L. wrote:Available at www.ncix.com (CDN$)
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php? ... lectronics

Seasonic S12-430: $115
Seasonic S12-430HB: $171

This is weird. It's probably an error in NCIX's database. The S12-430 is model # SS-430HB Active PFC F3. IE, the two items you mention should be one and the same. The only other variant I can think of is ther 120/240VAC switchable input model, which is uslly cheaperf but which they're not importing into North AM, AFAIK.

Webfire · Post by **Webfire** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:01 am

I just got an answer from the shop I posted above. The SS-400HT will cost 65€. But he couldn't tell me a binding date when he gets them.
He will inform me when he gets further details.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:51 am

Webfire wrote:The SS-400HT will cost 65€.

SS-301HT = €39; SS-351HT = €49; SS-401HT = €66 Even with €20 shipping to the EU or Switserland (or less in Germany) these are good deals. According to the picture on the website this is the version with the stamped grill.

The next picture is ripped from this Seasonic .pdf.

How many companies do we know, that would market those PSU's as 400W, 450W and 520W

mongobilly · Post by **mongobilly** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:57 pm

It would seem to me that the SSXXX-HT doesn't have any fan controller. So how silent is it really? The SS300 seems like a steal at 39€ but if it's noisy it's money not so well spent...

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:16 am

Hey, keep close track of all these numbers guys, because otherwise there's going to be a LOT of confusion. I did manage to get in touch with Seasonic today and got some of the model ranges down.

1) The SS400HT, SS500HT and SS600HT are part of one series with all identical features except for power rating. It is meant for the OEM market.

2) The SS500HT and SS600HT are identical to the S12-500 and S12-600. The model numbering on both is the same. BTW, the 80 Plus program just certified both of these models.

3) The S12-330, S12-380 and S12-430 are different from either of the above. Their circuitry is based on the discontinued Super Tornado series, but improved.

4) Right now, the S12 is going to be the only retail packaged PSU. Both of the Super series are discontinued.

5) The SS301HT, SS351HT and SS401HT are different from all of the above. They are NOT the same series as the SS400HT, SS500HT, SS600HT. This is an OEM, less expensive, less advanced model for system integrators.

6) Seasonic has much less control over what products appear in the retail market in the EU because their products have been sold there for well over a decade, and both OEM and retail products get mixed up in the channels.

So the key news is point 5). Don't assume that just because the last two letters are the sam that they come from the same line. They apparently don't.

mongobilly · Post by **mongobilly** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:38 am

So the SS400HT does fan control but not the SS401HT?

The PDFs on Seasonic sites say that about both SS400HT and SS401HT, but S12 series got a much neater, end user like PDF with graphs of the fan control configuration even?

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:17 am

mongobilly wrote:So the SS400HT does fan control but not the SS401HT?

No idea what you mean by "does fan control" -- what the heck does that mean??

AFAIK, EVERY fan-cooled PSU worth even looking at these days has thermal fan control.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:50 am

Sorry if this sound like nitpicking Mike.

I compared the SS-xx1HT to the lower range S12 PSU's. I didn't say they were in the same series as the SS-xx0HT. It is quite obvious the SS-301HT and the S12-330 are not the same PSU. The SS-301HT has a cheaper shell (no paint job, stamped grill). But my assumption was the electronics inside them are the same, because all specs and safety certificates are the same.

So my question is, did they literally say:
- The SS-xx1HT PSU's are different form all of the others.
or
- The electronics inside the SS-xx1HT PSU's is different form all of the others.

Economies of scale would dictate using the same electronics. Because using some different options in final assembly (different shell, different packaging) isn't as expensive as two completely different designs. Marketing on the other hand would dictate implying they are different. Just to protect the sales of the retail product.

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:25 pm

Tibors --

They simply said the 01HT series are not the same as the 00HT series. It is possible that the 01HT series are similar to the HB series, which are the S12-330, 380 & 430 -- derived from the Super Tornados. But the 01HT series are OEM -- no packaging, no AC cable, shorter output cables all around. No idea how close they are performancewise to the lower rated S12s.

Krispy · Post by **Krispy** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:17 am

The review states:

The cabling on this Seasonic is twisted, like one or two other PSUs we've reviewed recently. It's said to improve EMI performance

I'm familiar with audio/data cable being twisted as it's carrying a signal. I have a friend who spends a small fortune on all his hifi cabling including AC power, which is twisted, despite the remainder of his home's ring main being ordinary.

In this instance is twisting the peripheral cable a low cost sales gimmick, or is it a practice that could show up a "measureable" improvement somewhere?

Nice article

mongobilly · Post by **mongobilly** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:03 pm

MikeC wrote:Tibors --

They simply said the 01HT series are not the same as the 00HT series. It is possible that the 01HT series are similar to the HB series, which are the S12-330, 380 & 430 -- derived from the Super Tornados. But the 01HT series are OEM -- no packaging, no AC cable, shorter output cables all around. No idea how close they are performancewise to the lower rated S12s.

I read on ebay (seller explicitely wrote it because he gets asked about it so often) that the cheap HT series doesn't contain the praised fan controllers of the S12 series.

What this means I leave up to your own interpretation.

Performance wise, it would seem like the efficiency of the cheaper HT series should be pretty near the S12 (might even surpass it if we trust the 80plus cert)

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:09 pm

All seasonic ATX PSU's listed on their website have S2FC (that is the fan controller). Sounds like the guy on eBay doesn't know what he is talking about.

dfrost · Post by **dfrost** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:27 pm

Maybe the ebay "expert" was referring to the Molex fan adapter with 5V and 12V fan connectors that comes with the S12?

charger2000 · Post by **charger2000** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:48 am

would you excuse me if I still not understand if there's an OEM version of the S12-430

If so.. the model number is ... ?

Tephras · Post by **Tephras** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:46 pm

Well, there is no PSU model labeled as "OEM version of S12-430", but there are two models similar to the S12-430, namely SS-400HT and SS-401HT, they have the same power specifications as the S12-430. The differences between those three models (apart from the usual retail and OEM difference; bundled or no bundled accessories) lies in safety compliance, AC input type(?), power cables, fan grill and external look. You can find the characteristics of each PSU at Seasonics site. However, even though the specs are identical the circuitry and the internal design may differ between the three models, so they might also differ from each other in things such as efficiency for example (look also at the posts above by MikeC and Tibors).

edmil · Post by **edmil** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:12 am

I am looking for a quiet ATX12V v.2.0 PSU for a new nforce4, non-SLI build. I am in the UK.

After extensive reading on this site, I am thinking of buying an SS-401HT because, although noone seems to know about the internals of this PSU, I believe there is a good chance it may be the same as other Seasonic retail models that have been well-received. I have been unable to find any other Seasonic PSUs that have the 24-pin power connector available for sale in the UK.

I am a bit new to PSUs so what should I look out for?

I have gathered from this thread that the following issues may arise:
1. Included cables - ok, so I can buy some.

2. Length of included cabling - I will be using an SLK-3000B case for this build. Will they reach?

3. Type of grill - will this make a difference to airflow?

4. Internals - are they the same as known-good Seasonics? Since nobody knows, I may take a punt on this and then you guys can all ask me for details of markings etc. _before_ I bolt everything together in the case!

I'd welcome any warnings/insights before I go ahead and buy one of these.

Only alternative I can see with 24-pin power is Enermax Noisetaker EG495AX. I like the 4 SATA connectors on that PSU because I keep hearing about 3.3V-only hard drives coming in. I know 485W is excessive but Enermax's model numbers are so confusing that I want to guarantee I get a PSU which is ATX12V v2.0 compliant.