Zotac GeForce 8200-ITX WiFi: A Compact AM2 Solution

[enigma54]

Would you guys choose this board over the J&W MINIX 780G for a HTPC build? It seems to be trade-of between having a PCIe x16 slot versus having built-in wireless and, of course, the higher price of the J&W. I don't play games so I'm likely going to using the PCIe slot for a TV tuner card instead of a graphics card anyways. What do you think? Am I missing anything?

[MoJo]

780G seems to be the best for media playback. With Media Player Classic you just need to select VMR9 or EVR Custom to make hardware acceleration work, and the Radeon 3200 comes with pre-defined 24p 1080p and 720p modes.

No messing about with PowerDVD, Purevideo etc.

For HD, wireless isn't really enough anyway, and 780g has robust gigabit LAN.

[Monkeh16]

For HD, wireless isn't really enough anyway, and 780g has robust gigabit LAN.

It's not? Hmm, wonder what I've been watching on my laptop..

[ilovejedd]

I wouldn't say it's not robust. I've often been able to watch streaming OTA HD (~12-19mbps) via an 802.11g connection, 720p MKV's, too (full bitrate Blu-ray rips might pose a problem). It can be pretty unreliable, though. As I mentioned I can often watch HD via wireless but sometimes I get drops and stuff.

[MoJo]

Yeah, 2.4GHz is shared. As well as other wifi networks, there are phones, microwaves, remote control toys/models, Bluetooth and many other devices using that chunk of spectrum. Wifi is anything but reliable for streaming.

Gigabit also improves performance when skipping forward or backwards etc, even over 100M.

[Monkeh16]

Yeah, 2.4GHz is shared. As well as other wifi networks, there are phones, microwaves, remote control toys/models, Bluetooth and many other devices using that chunk of spectrum. Wifi is anything but reliable for streaming.

Gigabit also improves performance when skipping forward or backwards etc, even over 100M.

Depends on your wifi. Use 5GHz and you'll have less problems. Site your AP properly and you'll have even fewer.

As for seeking.. that's what the buffer is for. Use a large one.

[ZotacTuan]

The benefit of the GeForce 8200 chipset over the AMD 780G is the support for LPCM audio. With the GeForce 8200, you can have a DVD player (Cyberlink PowerDVD) decode lossless audio formats such as DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD or send raw uncompressed multi-channel PCM audio to your HDMI capable receiver, allowing you to experience the upgraded audio from Blu-ray and HD DVD formats.

Our ZOTAC GeForce 8200-ITX WiFi will send LPCM audio over HDMI using the included DVI-to-HDMI adapter.

Speaking on a personal level, there's a night and day difference between Dolby Digital and the lossless audio formats, if you have the equipment to take advantage of the formats.

[MoJo]

Depends on your wifi. Use 5GHz and you'll have less problems. Site your AP properly and you'll have even fewer.

As for seeking.. that's what the buffer is for. Use a large one.

I have tried 802.11a but even with a 7dBi antenna the range isn't as good as 802.11g in my house, and it still had some drop-out problems.

Seeking... buffer... what are you talking about? The whole point of seeking is that the buffer doesn't help at all, because you skip to a point beyond the end of the buffer or before the start of it.

Gigabit means that playback can start again almost instantly, as the buffer fills up faster and you don't need to buffer as much data before starting anyway because the connection is reliable.

[MoJo]

The benefit of the GeForce 8200 chipset over the AMD 780G is the support for LPCM audio. With the GeForce 8200, you can have a DVD player (Cyberlink PowerDVD) decode lossless audio formats such as DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD or send raw uncompressed multi-channel PCM audio to your HDMI capable receiver, allowing you to experience the upgraded audio from Blu-ray and HD DVD formats.

Unfortunately the 8200 does not support TrueHD/DTS-HDMA over HDMI though, so most (all?) BluRay discs will only let you use the older Dolby Digital/DTS audio. LPCM is an option but I don't think any discs actually use it for 8 channel HD audio.

The Radeon 4000 series supports TrueHD/DTS-HDMA over HDMI and was the first to do so. If you want HD audio, a 4350 or 4550 is the best bet.

The 3200 is generally thought to decode a more accurate image than the 8200 too, being the closest to the reference decoder. So using the 8200 you are loosing out in picture quality.

[Monkeh16]

Depends on your wifi. Use 5GHz and you'll have less problems. Site your AP properly and you'll have even fewer.

As for seeking.. that's what the buffer is for. Use a large one.

I have tried 802.11a but even with a 7dBi antenna the range isn't as good as 802.11g in my house, and it still had some drop-out problems.

Seeking... buffer... what are you talking about? The whole point of seeking is that the buffer doesn't help at all, because you skip to a point beyond the end of the buffer or before the start of it.

Gigabit means that playback can start again almost instantly, as the buffer fills up faster and you don't need to buffer as much data before starting anyway because the connection is reliable.

Yeah, because 7dBi is a lot of gain. It does depend on the structure, I admit. You probably needed a lot more transmit power.

As for seeking, if you set a large enough buffer you'll be mostly seeking within it, unless you're jumping five or ten minutes back and forth all the time.

[MoJo]

Yeah, because 7dBi is a lot of gain. It does depend on the structure, I admit. You probably needed a lot more transmit power.

Well, okay, it's big for a wifi router. I have an 300mW Alfa USB adapter with an 18dBi antenna, which is the highest gain one I have ever seen for omnidirectional stalks. I don't want to carry a pringles can I only use it in hotels etc where the signal is really bad.

As for seeking, if you set a large enough buffer you'll be mostly seeking within it, unless you're jumping five or ten minutes back and forth all the time.

BluRay goes up to 40Mb/sec. Say 20Mb/sec average, that's 2.5MB per second, so a 30 second buffer would need 75MB of data, even in a low bitrate movie.

Realistically, 802.11g mas a maximum real world throughput of about 20Mb, even in optimal conditions. So, a higher bitrate movie is unlikely to stream properly. You need 802.11n for HD really.

[ZotacTuan]

The benefit of the GeForce 8200 chipset over the AMD 780G is the support for LPCM audio. With the GeForce 8200, you can have a DVD player (Cyberlink PowerDVD) decode lossless audio formats such as DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD or send raw uncompressed multi-channel PCM audio to your HDMI capable receiver, allowing you to experience the upgraded audio from Blu-ray and HD DVD formats.

Unfortunately the 8200 does not support TrueHD/DTS-HDMA over HDMI though, so most (all?) BluRay discs will only let you use the older Dolby Digital/DTS audio. LPCM is an option but I don't think any discs actually use it for 8 channel HD audio.

The Radeon 4000 series supports TrueHD/DTS-HDMA over HDMI and was the first to do so. If you want HD audio, a 4350 or 4550 is the best bet.

The 3200 is generally thought to decode a more accurate image than the 8200 too, being the closest to the reference decoder. So using the 8200 you are loosing out in picture quality.

The GeForce 8200 is no different than the Radeon HD 4000 series in terms of audio capabilities. The HD 4000 does not bitstream Dolby True HD or DTS-HDMA, to my knowledge.

The HD 4000, as well as the GeForce 8200 require the software to decode the audio and send it over HDMI as LPCM.

There is no conceivable quality differences between having the software player decode THD/DTSHDMA vs having your receiver decode it, as its a pure digital source that'll be going through your receiver DACs.

[gsacks]

Maybe ZotacTuan can chime in on this one. I just had an email thread with Zotac technical support about the upcoming 9300 mini-itx board. I have a 4 year old ITX case with 200W power supply that I was hoping to use. This is the latest response that I got about the power requirements for the board. The numbers he is quoting for power draw seem very high to me, especially for ram. The below quote is in reference to the 9300 board, not the 8200 reviewed in this article:

<quote (Zotac support)>
Hello,

The main power on this board is 24 pin. It will not work with your 20 pin connector. As power supplies get older it puts out less power. The power supply units for motherboards is always case by case.

There are a bunch of variables. Hard Drives and CD/DVD ROM take anywhere from 20-35 watts each. Processors take from 60-100 watts. Every Gig of Ram is roughly another 20-30 watts each. Case and CPU fans are another 3-10 watts. Also anything extra you have like USB connections etc. I would suggest the most wattage you can get being that the power connector pin will not work with this motherboard with your current PSU. Yes it might work with 200 watts but maybe not as effectively nor efficiently as something like a 350 watts.
<end quote>

Am I the only one here who thinks that a 350w power recommendation for a mini-ITX system is a bit steep?

[MoJo]

The GeForce 8200 is no different than the Radeon HD 4000 series in terms of audio capabilities. The HD 4000 does not bitstream Dolby True HD or DTS-HDMA, to my knowledge.

The 4000 series supports Protected Audio Path (PAP), and can pass a True HD or DTS-HDMA bitstream to be decoded by the receiver.

On the GeForce 8200 the True HD or DTS-HDMA has to be decoded by software and converted to LPCM. The software is required to down-sample the audio to 16bit 48KHz, because the lack of PAP means it is not protected from copying.

There is a Microsoft article about it here:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/me ... otect.mspx

Basically, the audio from the 8200 is no better than DVD, possibly even worse since the software is down-sampling. It also means higher CPU usage as the software has to do all the decoding and down-sampling.

[ZotacTuan]

The GeForce 8200 is no different than the Radeon HD 4000 series in terms of audio capabilities. The HD 4000 does not bitstream Dolby True HD or DTS-HDMA, to my knowledge.

The 4000 series supports Protected Audio Path (PAP), and can pass a True HD or DTS-HDMA bitstream to be decoded by the receiver.

On the GeForce 8200 the True HD or DTS-HDMA has to be decoded by software and converted to LPCM. The software is required to down-sample the audio to 16bit 48KHz, because the lack of PAP means it is not protected from copying.

There is a Microsoft article about it here:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/me ... otect.mspx

Basically, the audio from the 8200 is no better than DVD, possibly even worse since the software is down-sampling. It also means higher CPU usage as the software has to do all the decoding and down-sampling.

Hmm I never knew that about the HD 4xxx series. However, most BD/HD DVD movies are still 16/48 when it comes to LPCM or DTSHDMA/THD, so there wouldn't be any down sampling going on. And even with downsampling, a lossless audio track will always sound better than a 640kbps AC-3 stream from a DVD.

gsacks - what power supply do you have?

[gsacks]

The power supply is an Enhance 2220D 200W power supply. It has a 20pin power connector and a 4-pin P4 power connector. It came with the case, and I've not been able to find any replacement with a higher wattage in the correct form factor. They do make a 2222D 220W supply, but I've not been able to find it without buying another case. In any event, I don't think there are any ITX cases with greater than 250W power supplies. The PS had been powering a via EPIA board with 512Meg DDR memory, an IDE hard drive and CD-Rom and a sound card. It works flawlessly with this set-up except that the underpowered VIA motherboard is a drag. If I replaced it with the Zotac board, I would install either 2 or 4 gig ram, a 640gig SATA western digital 6400AAKS hard drive, and an SATA DVD burner. System would most likely run Ubuntu Linux 8.10, and depending on which room I put it in it will have either a 17in LCD VGA monitor, or a 42in Panasonic Plasma over HDMI connected.

[MoJo]

Hmm I never knew that about the HD 4xxx series. However, most BD/HD DVD movies are still 16/48 when it comes to LPCM or DTSHDMA/THD, so there wouldn't be any down sampling going on. And even with downsampling, a lossless audio track will always sound better than a 640kbps AC-3 stream from a DVD.

To be fair, I only have 2.1 Bose audio on my 1080p TV

I'm not sure I could build a system that would really justify the new True HD stuff in my living room. I think you would have to have a dedicated room for it.

I normally stay well away from Bose because I'm mainly into high end headphones and want as clean unprocessed audio as possible, but for movies and TV they are very good. 2.1 sound has been neglected since DVDs appeared so you need processing really.

The main attraction for me of the 8200 chipset is the low power consumption and six SATA ports. It's ideal for a server.

[__Miguel_]

I believe I can shed some light on this one. Let's see:

Is it due to less features or is it something else, something ineherent with the ITX factor or something else?

Well, since features are not lacking on this particular board, I can only attribute the low power outputs to few unneded ports being used (no LPT, COM or Firewire), which can add up to 5W+, a better (read: newer, based on smaller manufacturing processes, and/or without some extra stuff older ones still had) IO controller, fewer VRM phases (VRMs are the biggest power hogs: fewer ones mean less wasted energy when idling, and there can also be some sort of VRM swtich in effect, powering down unneeded ones), fewer layers (more lawers = more wire = more power needed), or some combination of the above.

Also, newer chipsets can be more power-friendly. The AMD 7-series is a good example, and the NVIDIA 8 and 9-series should too.

1. The Power supply used on the testbench is an untested unit for which we have no idea about the the efficiency drop off as power decreases. Sure it is 80+, but that only means that at 20% power draw it is 80%+ efficient. This is a fair bit from 20% though. Even the AC draw is only 7.5%.

This means that more efficient mobos will be penalized compared to less efficient ones due to the efficiency of the power supply. 1W or 2W difference may not seem much at the 30W level, but relatively speaking, it is a rather lot. Specially if the system is meant to be powered up 24/7.

The only efficient PSUs on the sub-50W power range are the Picos (not 80+, mind you), and it's rather hard to have one of those power up a 90W+ setup without some sort of malfunction, the 12V line would be severely taxed...

A more efficient PSU would be interesting, but there is a point where you just can't go below in terms of good efficiency. Sub-30W is insanely low for ANY PSU, and efficiency will always be rather bad. Probably in the 50~60% range. The good thing is, when we approach this level, all motherboards share the same PSU limitation, so that still amounts to a fair review.

Is there a reason why you chose to go with the minimum stable voltage this time? But more importantly, why not do that every time? We are all running our CPU's somewhere at the efficiency curve anyways, not some arbitrary set point, like stock clock/voltage. And finding that one motherboard will let you undervolt better than another might sway the conclusions...

Well, AFAIK, there are very few motherboards that allow sub-1v to CPUs. Most of them stop at 1.1v for AMD systems. That is why most reviews only show "1.1v" in the CPU undervolt. This column on the review is specifically targeted to the "how low can you go in terms of power consumption", so it does make some sense for it to be different if the motherboard has different capabilities...

I am, however, in favour of adding another column, so we can have directly comparable results against an "undervolting baseline", like 1.1v. Makes you be sure on how much more efficient a motherboard really is, not on how it can go around its efficiency drawbacks.

In the Zotac review, CnQ was enabled, but at least in the M3A78 review quoted above, CnQ was disabled when testing underclock/volt.

AFAIK, undervolting assumes C&Q/EIST is disabled. Though I might be wrong, and if so, a clear choice should be made for the test methodology.

There has also been a few comparisons between chipsets at the underclocked level, but not in this one. However, due to the differences in how the CPU was configured, such a comparison would not have been informative.

This is another of the "motherboard-dependent" features that can influence the "how low can you go" column. Although, I agree the methodology should be clear, and if you use it once, you should use it every time it's available.

All in all, I appreciate the SPCR reviews. Let's see if Mike can tweak the methodology a little, and make sure he(we) get extreme results on the power features.

Cheers.

Miguel

[Lawrence Lee]

I'll see if we can get our reference power supply tested.

As for the methodology, we don't really have one - it's an on-going process. For example we decided awhile back to stop undervolting to 1.1V on AMD motherboards because we realized a lot of boards now go to 1.0V with C&Q. So should I continue doing it for the sake of routine? I'm not that anal-retentive. We'll go with the lowest stable voltage at a certain speed from now on - I think you guys would appreciate that more.

[__Miguel_]

Well, that was quick! Thanks for being on top of things!

As for the methodology, we don't really have one - it's an on-going process.

Needless to say, that one is on your short "to-do" list, right?

So should I continue doing it for the sake of routine?

Of course not. Just stick to a baseline, and go from there. Test the baseline results (like 1v, since now 1v is common, and no IGP undervolting/underclocking), log those, and then go wild and try to break the power consumption (or lack of it... lol) record.

However, if you just want to stick with the single "least stable power draw possible", I'm OK with it. Just make sure you tie at least a couple of "multi-ton" rocks on the board before testing for lowest power draw, like disabling unused ports and unverdolting the IGP . 1GHz on the CPU could also be fine, but that speed should probably reserved for NASes and routers...

Cheers.

Miguel

[MoJo]

As for the methodology, we don't really have one - it's an on-going process. For example we decided awhile back to stop undervolting to 1.1V on AMD motherboards because we realized a lot of boards now go to 1.0V with C&Q. So should I continue doing it for the sake of routine? I'm not that anal-retentive. We'll go with the lowest stable voltage at a certain speed from now on - I think you guys would appreciate that more.

I think this is a good idea. When you read these forums you see a lot of posts from people who went to extremes to get power and heat down, but what we really need from reviews is what we can expect with pretty much stock settings and average parts.

[frank2003]

Am I the only one here who thinks that a 350w power recommendation for a mini-ITX system is a bit steep?

Tech support's job is not to sell products. Anyone with the right mind will not build a mini-ITX system using this board if it really requires this recommended power supply. So the marketing folks will have to do some damage control.

In practice, unless you put in an external video card or multiple hard drives or overclock, you're not likely to need more than 100W peak for an average mini-ITX system.

[SZQuddy]

Hi,

I am new to this site. I am trying to put together a mini-ITX based htpc so am gathering information when I came across this site. Excellent site by the way, lots of really good articles that I am trying to get my head around.

First question is where can this board be purchased in the UK if it is available yet?

Are there any alternatives? I have only found 1 so far: the Jetway JNC62K (Geforce 8200).

There are some other 780G based boards but I intend to use Linux + MythTV and it looks like Nvidia's VDPAU is very promising and starting to work.

Thanks.

[QuietOC]

Well, AFAIK, there are very few motherboards that allow sub-1v to CPUs. Most of them stop at 1.1v for AMD systems. That is why most reviews only show "1.1v" in the CPU undervolt.

I must be very lucky because I haven't had any AM2 motherboards that haven't been able to go down to 0.800V setting at least. I know S754/939 motherboards did not let "E6" stepping processors w/ C'n'Q go below 1.1V, and the same motherboards would let a "D0" or Clawhammer or non-C'n'Q "E6" undervolt to 0.850V.

[QuietOC]

<quote (Zotac support)>
Hello,

The main power on this board is 24 pin. It will not work with your 20 pin connector. As power supplies get older it puts out less power. The power supply units for motherboards is always case by case.

There are a bunch of variables. Hard Drives and CD/DVD ROM take anywhere from 20-35 watts each. Processors take from 60-100 watts. Every Gig of Ram is roughly another 20-30 watts each. Case and CPU fans are another 3-10 watts. Also anything extra you have like USB connections etc. I would suggest the most wattage you can get being that the power connector pin will not work with this motherboard with your current PSU. Yes it might work with 200 watts but maybe not as effectively nor efficiently as something like a 350 watts.
<end quote>

Am I the only one here who thinks that a 350w power recommendation for a mini-ITX system is a bit steep?

That is so wrong on so many points. I'm sure not everyone at Zotac is such a complete idiot. Real world my undervolted 1.6GHz Sempron + Foxconn 740G/SB700 + 4GB DDR2 draws ~22W at full CPU load (34W at the wall). 800MHz at the same voltage and just one 2GB stick I got an actual 28W idle at the wall--which means less than 17W (probably more like 14W).

Here's my PS if you want to better guess the curve for ~10W load:

[__Miguel_]

First question is where can this board be purchased in the UK if it is available yet?

Sorry, can't help you there, since I'm from Portugal.

Are there any alternatives? I have only found 1 so far: the Jetway JNC62K (Geforce 8200).

Do you want the 8200 specifically? Or you'd be willing to look at other chipsets?

If you want the 8x00, I think Zotac and Jetway are the only options.

However, Zotac also manufactures the 9300 ITX (release date: 18/2, ~$135, AFAIK), for Intel-based systems (generally believed to be the current top-of-the-line HTPC chipset). There are also mini-ITX 7xx0-based motherboards (also from Zotac), but those aren't really HTPC-friendly.

And, of course, you also have Intel's DG45FC, which seems a little quircky, from what I've read, but also very good.

But probably you'll be more interested in NVIDIA-based boards, from what you've already written.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Miguel

[SZQuddy]

Thanks for the reply Miguel.

I was looking at Geforce 8200/8300 boards specifically because I wanted to use AMD 5050e CPU and MythTv with H/W acceleration. This seems like a good balance of speed and power consumption as these CPUs are only 45w so would be easier to cool in a mITX case.

However, I have started to look at Geforce 9300/9400 boards as well along with the Intel E5200 CPU. I think these are 65w though and am not sure how they compare with the AMD 4850e/5050e. I imagine they are faster but not sure about heat and power consumption.

[__Miguel_]

I must be very lucky because I haven't had any AM2 motherboards that haven't been able to go down to 0.800V setting at least.

Yes, it has already been established that I suck at knowledge about AMD-based systems... No need to go through that again, right?

Also, I have to agree on that absurd "the 24-pin is an absolute must" quote... I haven't seen a single motherboard with a 24-pin connector that refused to boot with a 20-pin connector; same thing for the 8-pin 12V2 (a.k.a. EPS) connector. I have no EPS-compatible PSUs, and though every single one of my motherboards (including an X48-based one) boots just fine.

To put it bluntly: both the ATX 24-pin connector and the EPS connector were created to supply an extra 12V line (or better yet, an extra 12V cable) to the motherboard and the PSU power supply lines, to make sure there are no melted cables when using over-powered CPUs (120W+ TDP anyone?) and/or overclocking configurations. It had been done before several times, I remember some Gigabyte (and MSI, if memory serves me right) motherboards that had a dedicated Molex connector to supplemet the 20-pin ATX connector (mainly for the AGP or PCIe slots, but still...), and there was no problem if that was not used...

I'm sure Zotac means well (after all, you might want to use a massively underpowered PSU and then complain the motherboard is c**p), but that's just it, there are NO underpowered PSUs for that motherboard, unless you want to use a buckload of HDDs and USB devices at the same time... And, yes, probably if you use a high-power Quad, but that's probably not likely to happen, right?

Thanks for the reply.

You're welcome.

However, I have started to look at Geforce 9300/9400 boards as well along with the Intel E5200 CPU. I think these are 65w though and am not sure how they compare with the AMD 4850e/5050e. I imagine they are faster but not sure about heat and power consumption.

Well, just look at the test here at SPCR on the DG45FC. They use an E6400 for the primary tests (which is lame, the E6400 has a 22W C1E state, newer CPUs, including the Q9xxx, lower that up to around 6~8W...), but for ultra-low power draw tests they change the CPU to an E7200.

And guess what: AMD is generally in the lead on idle by a few Watts; and Intel slashes load power draw values by about 15~20W...

Fortunately, nowadays stock G31 (and similar, including G45 and probably 9x00i) + E5/7/8xxx or AMD configurations (740G, especially, but that's not HTPC-friendly) can easilly idle on the 30W range. Unfortunately, though, despite both AMD and Intel usually can be hugely undervolted, AMD seems to have the upper hand on the BIOS department (most AMD-based motherboards are at least undervolting-friendly, oddly enough), which is why it's possible to build a sub-25W idle AMD rig... Intel might, but there are just not enough good BIOSes around to do that...

Cheers.

Miguel

[QuietOC]

Fortunately, nowadays stock G31 (and similar, including G45 and probably 9x00i) + E5/7/8xxx or AMD configurations (740G, especially, but that's not HTPC-friendly) can easilly idle on the 30W range.

The best I've been able to do with G31 + E7200 is 39W at the wall at 999MHz @ 0.752V. I don't think it is the CPU since it is very little more power to idle at 2000MHz @ 1.088V (~43W). iBXT measured the VRM consumption of a stock E7200 at 3W idle and 19W load. It is pointless to undervolt Wolfdales until we get a very low power chipet, and there is nothing even remotely low power for LGA775.

[__Miguel_]

The best I've been able to do with G31 + E7200 is 39W at the wall at 999MHz @ 0.752V.

That's... odd... Tom's Hardware got below that at stock... And that's with a 3.5'' HDD!

First things first, what hardware are you using? The PSU and the HDD are two of the most important aspects. You'll probably want to skip 1st-gen 1TB drives (read: Hitachi), and just about anything with more than one platter . Also, the number of phases that power the CPU. 3 is just about what you need (and that's why the DG45FC doesn't support Quads), more than that without really good power management capable hardware and BIOSes will probably mean an extra 5W (at least).

As for the PSU, you'll want to stick with a Pico, or something sub-250W (ideally, sub-200W), since efficiency numbers for sub-20% loads on PSUs are just hedious.

But I guess that can be another case of IMMV

Cheers.

Miguel