Oscar's Silent Powerhouse P182 (now w/ VF1000) 56k warning

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oscar3d
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Oscar's Silent Powerhouse P182 (now w/ VF1000) 56k warning

Post by oscar3d » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:20 pm

HI All:

When you' go through all the detailed mods and the entire thread, you will find the VGA mods I've made here led to nothing but 3 big lessons:

1) The P182 is a good case but overrated and not good for gaming.
2) Nothing beats the stock cooler on the 8800 Ultra in this configuration. Not even an HR-03 is worth the blance between silenc/cooling.

3) Aftermarket coolers without exahust SIGNIFICANTLY increase overall temperatures by at least 10C in this configuration.

Image

This is an update coming from this old post of my rig.

viewtopic.php?t=44219&highlight=oscars

Case: P182B with pre-applied Acoustipak Deluxe V2

-Modified with tin snips and dremmel to create external SATA power/data ports on the back.

CPU: Update: Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9650 3.00Ghz running @ 4.00Ghz. Not Lapped with AS5

Former CPU: Intel Cure 2 Quad Q6600 2.40GHz stepping G0 (SLACR)running @ 3.01Ghz. Lapped until 2000 Grit (mirror finish) and applied Arctic Silver 5.
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme Lapped until 2000 Grit, mirror finish and used a 3/16 thick/ 1 1/4 diameter washer to make it a solid fit and tight.
PSU: Old good Corsair 620HX

Motherboard: ASUS P5E3 Deluxe WI/FI AP (X38 Chipset )

Video Card: EVGA 8800 Ultra KO @636 Mhz.

GPU Cooler: Zalman VF-1000 with RHS88 Ramsink, all moded with a Sctyhe Juni Slipstream 1200 RPM fan.

Sound Card: Asus Xonard D2X PCI-E which replaced a Bluegears B-Enspirer 7.1 (tossed out buggy Creative and never going back)

Memory: 4 GB of Crucial Ballistix DDR3 12800 (1600Mhz) rated to run at 8-8-824

HD: 3 Western Digital (2x250GB for Xp and Vista selective boot) + 1 320GB for Backup.

All drives enclosed in "the best": SMART DRIVE 2002 Copper. You can find them in endpcnoise.com they are expensive, but I've used them for 2 years now. Temps on drives never pass 32C:-)
All drives routed to the CASE using AKASA SATA PCI-BRACKET (SATA EX-BLUV)

Optical Drives: 2 ASUS DVDRW Dual Layer

Floppy Drive: Yes, matushita. Needed to run Memtest and other stuff.

Fans:

- Exhaust : Scythe S-Flex SFF21F (1600RPM) running @ 1028 RPM w/ Fanmate.

- CPU Cooler: Scythe S-Flex SFF21E (1200RPM) running @ 1028 RPM w/ Fanmate. Yes, matched speeds to assure even flow of air.

- Mid Case Fan: Scythe S-Flex SFF21D (800RPM) running @ 830 RPM. No need for undervolt, it's silent enough.

What changed:


I've now updated it to make it more silent. And the specific changes are occurring on the 8800 Ultra KO. The fan started whining on low, and it started to get into my nerves eventually.

So this is what I did, after a lot of investigation, I decided to put a modified Zalman VF-1000 with a RHS88 ramsink cooler on it.

I know you want the pcis and I will explain, as I'm sure it will answer many questions from silencer around the globe, which wonder about the VF1000.

This was my rig before.

Image

* As you can see I don't have a space for a Thermalright HR-03 which would have been my best option. I'm always picky about using the onboard sound of my P5E3 Deluxe Wi-Fi. So the only solution was to get the first PCI-E SOundcard ever made: the Asus Xonar D2X.


The VF1000:



Image

So this is what I did with the VF1000.

a) Before installing the RHS88, I remove all the thermal tapes. I don't want sticky crap on my board in case I want to change it again.

b) Applied Arctic Silver 5 on the GPU chip, and the memory chips. The mosfets were more risky so instad I applied Zalman STG-1 on the mosfets and the I/O chip. Zalman STG-1 is non conductive, and it has great reviews around.

And yes, there is no problem with this, as there won't be any gap between the RHS88 ramsink and the chips. I've found out that the tapes have exactly the same thickness as any thermal grease you apply.

Image

c) Removed the awful fan from the VF1000. It might be silent on low, but it is horrible noise on high. From the crop of Fans that I have at home, I found it was about time to test the Scythe Sliptstream fans.

This one is:

SY1225SL12M 1,200 rpm 24.00 dBA 68.54CFM DC12V 0.26 A

The fan was ziptied to the base of the heatsink and then plugged to a Fanmate, to undervolt it a little bit. And kept it running at about 1110 RPM.

Image


The rig now:

Image

If it wasn't for the stupid design ideas from Asus X38 boards, to have the first PCI-E two steps below, I wouldn't have gotten into all this trouble.

I've replaced my PCI Bluegears B-Enspirer for the Xonar D2X Soundcard, and yes, even if it is designed for PCI-E 1x, it can also fit on any other PCI-E 1x, 8x, 16x.

You wonder why the Xonar looks bent in the picture? Since it's physical contact is PCI-E 1x there is an empty space, so the card doesn't have the other "rest" to be kept in the place. Once you screw it, it tends to go up. But believe me there is nothing wrong.

Image

Image

Observe the space between the card v/s the sound card: About 1 PCI of space. And believe me I did my homework taking measurements, unfortunately again it is impossible to install a Thermalright HR-03 on this, without sacrificing the soundcard.


Results:

Results Before the Update:

CPU running @ 4Ghz

Idle: 35C
Load: 63C

GPU

On Idle: 67 C
On Load: 82 C

Results After the Update:

CPU running @ 4Ghz

Idle: 36C
Load: 63C

GPU After 1 hr playing Assasin's Creed.

On Idle: 52 C
On Load: 75 C

I cannot say how much happy I am that my work payed off well.

I was really nervous thinking that this was not going to work.

The CPU only gained 1C-2C on load, and that is expected since the GPU does not exhaust air any more, and instead is relying on the exhasust 120mm fan to get rid of the hot air.

The results on the GPU are DRAMATIC:

About 15C less on idle. But just only 7C less on load. Yes, the HR-03 can be much better, but this is not that bad considering we are talking about a factory overclocked 8800 Ultra, running at 636Mhz on the core.

The Scythe Slipstream:

WOW!!
And I can say this again. This is by far one of the most silent and incredible fans ever tested by me. It is really pushing a lot of air for this card, and also helping the rest of the equipment to be cool as well. It is by far much better noisewise than the SFF21E that I have installed before.

Seriously you need to try this fan. You won't regret it.

I'm even thinking about replacing the exhaust case fan: Scythe SFF21F (1600RPM), and get one of this.


I'm right now ordering 3 Noctua fans:Two 1200RPMS and one 800RPM, to see if I can make this rig better.

Overall this rig is fresh on the inside, depite the furnace this GPU pictures.

And I cannot be more happy with how quiet this is now!!! But again it can be better? I'll wait for the noctuas...


Any suggestions are ver, very appreciated....
And yes:

Finally back panel pictures (thanks again to falcon26 and Konneticut for their awesome cabling ideas). I had to take it out to install my third Fanmate....


Image


Image

Image


Thanks SPCR!!! I hope this helps others.
Last edited by oscar3d on Wed May 07, 2008 2:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

DeMoB
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Post by DeMoB » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:23 pm

Nice work ^_^

You've done well to make sure the door still fits with all those cables hidden back there!

Some serious power in the rig too. 8)

Dan

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Post by bonestonne » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:25 pm

you couldn't flip an HR-03 over? they're designed to mount in both directions. i'm not sure if it would be too tight or not under the TRUE though...

falcon26
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Post by falcon26 » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:26 pm

Very nice :-) clean and clear setup. I use the sflex 800 rpm fans myself their great. Nice temps too :-)

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:26 pm

Thanks guys for your kind words!

I'm trying to report all my work in here, in case some others want to use the VF 1000.

I'm not sure that the HR-03 works well in the inverse way. This case is ATX and the inverse way works better in BTX configurations.

falcon26, glad to hear from you....

I did tried the 800RPM the SFF21D on this confg, and it didn't do well, temps on the GPU were reaching 91C. I needed a more powerful fan, which means indeed the HR03 is a better cooler, but unfortunately it desn't fit.

falcon, why did you change your 8800 Ultra for a 8800GT? Is it more silent overall?

Do you guys think it's worth swapping my current fans for Noctuas?

Thanks again!!!

falcon26
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Post by falcon26 » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:36 pm

The ultra was starting to show its age in games like crysis :-( which I know brings any system to its knees. So I sold my ultra for the right price and got 2 GT's for the same price as 1 ultra yet I get much much better performance :-) I'm now able to play crysis at 1680x1050 with everything set to high and some aa and af and still get 40-50 fps :-) my ultra at the same setting only got about 30 fps. As for being quiet the ultra was quieter with the thermalright on it, but I tell you these GT's even with the stock cooler at pretty dam quiet. They never kick on to full speed they only get to about 800-900 rpm's even while gaming. My system is a tad louder not by much though. I could add the artic s1 to both of them and run them passively but for now stock will do. I actually think the stock coolers look better than any after market cooler. And with the stock cooler on they are only taking up 1 slot each, so their's plenty of room for good air flow. I even sold my old intel mb and got the evga one, so when all was said and done I got 2 GT's and a 750i mb for about $50 total :-) after selling my old stuff and I got probably 50% performance gain so I'm happy :-)

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Post by DreamKiller » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:05 pm

You can also use 2x 80mm fans on the VF-1000, they fit perfectly. I have that setup on my 8800GTS 640MB. Overclocked at 675/1620/999 core/shader/mem, I get 48C idle, and 71C ATi-Tool load.

8800GTS 640MB , VF-1000/RHS88, 2x 80mm Nexus:
Image

Installed in my system (the bending is harmless, been running that way for 8 months now):
Image

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:43 pm

That's awesome!!!


Thanks for sharing these pictures. My only question about having two fans is noise.Wouldn't be better to have only one instead of two?

Also I'm kind ofwondering,I know many people have said that sleeved fans are not good for horizontal mounting, which applies for the nexus fans as well as the Kama Juni Sleapstreamed I've installed (both models are sleeved bearings)

What does this mean? The duration of my fan is about 30000 hours, does this mean the duration will be half of it? Or they will fail sooner than that? How do you notice fans will be failing?

Last but not least question, if you put two fans is there any way to joint-connect them to one single 3-pin instead of having two? If I install two fans I want both of themto be controlled by a FanMate...

Thanks a bunch!

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:28 pm

Is this my idea, or the system that you showed on the front page of SPCR,
looks almost exactly like mine.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article827-page1.html

Intereasting, they are following what I did, and they get the front page...

DeMoB
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Post by DeMoB » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:47 pm

I don't think they will have done such an awesome job on routing cables round the back of the case :P

They get the front page as I think they are going to be selling the system, you planning on making loads and selling them to others?

Dan

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Post by MikeC » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:28 pm

oscar3d wrote:Is this my idea, or the system that you showed on the front page of SPCR,
looks almost exactly like mine.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article827-page1.html

Intereasting, they are following what I did, and they get the front page...
No, it's definitely not a copy of what you did. There are probably only a few ways to make a system with those components really quiet... no surprise that there's overlap in approaches.

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:39 pm

Yes you guys are right.

It looks so similar though. Like if they were watching my progress while making this build.

But no, I'm not planning on selling anything ;-)

Otherwise I wouldn't have posted anything here. And what I want is to share and get knowledge with you guys. I love this site. :lol:

Thanks guys!

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Post by Wibla » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:04 am

Image

HR-03 works just fine inverted... this is on a 7950GT :)

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:44 am

I see that Wibla. Thanks!

But what about the fan? I don't see it fitting in there. I really don't think that the exhaust and push fan of the CPU can take care of that.

My 8800 is an Ultra...

Maybe I'm wrong.

One thing I've always wanted to know, is how you really keep the ramsinks that come with the Hr-03 sticked to the video card.

I've heard some horror stories of HR-03 ramsinks falling and thus killing a video card.

Have you guys found any way to:

a) Stick HR-03 ramsinks safely (no risks of falling)
b) Be able to take them out if you want to mod the card again.

Thank you!

Wibla
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Post by Wibla » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:50 am

Yeah, with an 8800 Ultra I'd be abit sceptical, but with some ducting I think you'll be fine, the HR-03 is very, very good.

I just stuck my ramsinks on and they've stayed on.. but the OEM cooler didnt have ram cooling at all IIRC.

As my current card is a 7950GT its not a powerhouse or anything, but temps are easily very comfortable compared to stock cooling, if I run all fans at max it wont even be above 60 degrees at load.

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Sun May 04, 2008 3:53 pm

Ok. Warm days were coming and I saw the 8800 Ultra KO getting up to 85C. This is not not good,something is wrong, or this mod doesn'thold upand overclocked Ultra

I then made my research and ordered a Thermalright HR-03 Plus. That meant to go back to my old sound card (Bluegears B-Enspirer PCI) which fortunately I made it fit on the top PCI of my mobo.

These are the results:

Image


Oops. Didn't plug the PCI-E cords before taking this pic :-)

Image


As you can see it takes all the bottom PCI places, so my only alternative was the top PCI. Installing the HR-03 screws as the manual explains would have made my sound card installation impossible. Instead I've inverted the screws, and believe me it WORKS!

I've applied AS5 to this one as well....

8800 Ultra KO: (Temps measured by Everest)

Idle: 48C

Load: 73C


And this is after an hour of rthdribl.

Better than the VF1000 and definetely better than the STOCK. But honestly it's not that good.... I'm not happy....

Where are those <60C on load claimed by so many people?

I said they tested their cards on load for 5 or 10 minutes. Test them using a HDR heavy program like rthdribl for an hour, and then you will see real load temps.


I guess this is the end... I'm tired, and wasted enough money triend to find the best match. The cooling in my case is no less than balanced, within CFM and silence, and if for some people it's not. The cabling tookhours to be as perfect as possible. Ans still the P182 seems to be not that worthy,or it does not have the cooling potential it claims. At least not for a gamer.

I'm missing my P150 case already. :cry:

I guess the system is better, but it's not as I wanted. I've modded the BIOS of my superclocked ultra and transformed into an ultra, just to be safe.

I'm done with this card. I'm fed up with its heat and power consumption, I guess I'd wait for the 9900 GTX on July.


Other than that I've replaced the exhaust fan for a Noctua 1200RPM and a Scythe Slipstream 1200. And oh, boy they are much quieter than the older S-Flex I had. My system is more silent than ever.

Thanks SPCR!!

[/img]
Last edited by oscar3d on Sun May 04, 2008 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bfung
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Post by bfung » Sun May 04, 2008 4:48 pm

hey hows the wifi on that motherboard? i was thinking of getting the same mobo. everything run smoothly when you installed ur 45nm?

Modo
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Post by Modo » Sun May 04, 2008 8:56 pm

oscar3d wrote: 8800 Ultra KO: (Temps measured by Everest)

Idle: 48C

Load: 73C


And this is after an hour of rthdribl.

Better than the VF1000 and definetely better than the STOCK. But honestly IT SUCKS!!! I'm not happy....

Where are those <60C on load claimed by so many people?
People using Delta fans, perhaps? ;)

Have you checked what happens if you use the heatsink without the fan (since the bottom Noctua already blows air that way), and with one slot cover near the graphics card heatsink removed?

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Sun May 04, 2008 9:24 pm

NO, I've read peopleusing actual 1200RPM fans, even Quiet Yate Loons,same as Nexus fans.

I just can't believe I cannot get those temps,with a Scythe Slipstream 1200 hitting almost 66-68 CFM!

Yes, if it take that fan out of the heatsink the GPU will probably burn in hell, and I hope it does, :wink: I'm so frustrated...sorry. This video card is terrible...

Better now with an aftermarket fan, but the difference is NOT THAT INCREDIBLE IN LOAD TEMPS.

Modo
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Post by Modo » Sun May 04, 2008 11:37 pm

oscar3d wrote: Yes, if it take that fan out of the heatsink the GPU will probably burn in hell, and I hope it does, :wink: I'm so frustrated...sorry. This video card is terrible...
Actually, I was serious. Graphics cards with passive cooling tend to do much better with good airflow around the card. Slapping a fan directly on the heatsink is not always the best solution, since it can prevent hot air from moving away from the card.

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Wed May 07, 2008 2:17 pm

I got frustrated last night. You guys are not going to believe this, but I went back to my original stock cooler for the 8800 ultra.

It was a cold night, about 62F ambient temp, and decided to run the card (With the Thermalright HR-03 installed) on RTHBDL for an hour, and at the same time use Prime 95, to do CPU tests.

This time I run my Quad-Core (QX9650) at stock speeds 3 GHz.

After half hour my results measured both with Everest and Coretemp:

On Idle:
Motherboard Temp: 44C

CPU Temp: 41C

GPU Temp: 52C


On Load:
Motherboard Temp: 51C

CPU Temp: 61C

GPU Temp: 78C

This was unnaceptable in my opinion.

With the stock cooler, the 8800 Ultra KO, went up to 67C in Idle and 82C on Load and steady.

With the thermalright HR-03 I've gained only 4C less on Load. And at the expense of making every other component in my rig, significantly hot by at least 10 degrees.

Yes it is true, the HR-03 helps you decrease at least 15C BUT ON IDLE.

But for me the important thing is ON LOAD. My wish was to have a balanced system and stable.

I decided I cannot sacrifice the cooling of the rest of my components just to decrease a few degrees on load. That 4C difference is insignificant.

* I really don't think I've installed both the VF1000 and the HR-03 incorrectly. I've installed many different aftermarket coolers, and also don't need lessons on how to apply thermal paste. (AS 5)

I've dumped $150 on this. But I've learned my lesson.

These can be very good coolers for other configurations or video cards, but IMHO NOT FOR an Antec 182 with a 8800 GTX or Ultra.

Just see the so claimed 22db EndPCNoise P182 rig:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article827-page1.html

With a VF1000 with and with a 120 mm fan just in front of it. That 8800GTX is not even able to go below 85C, and that's awful.

This is an open question, but not until this day I have NOT seen any aftermarket cooler for high-end cards that is able to exhaust the air outside the case. And it is proven in this big and expensive adventure, that it makes all the difference.

My temps now back with the stock cooler on the 8800 Ultra:

Motherboard on Load: 40C
CPU on Load: 48C
GPU: 82C but it is STEADY and that's what the HR-03 nor the VF1000 can give me.

Image

About the former fan howling that led me to do all of this, it was just the Scythe S-Flex both E and D versions that were howling when undervolted.

I've rapidly switched them to a Noctua 1200 fan (exhaust) and a Sctyhe Slipstream 1200 for the CPU heatsink. I cannot recommend this fans more :-) they are much quieter than the S-Flex.[/img]


The thread is dedicated to the members falcon26, meansizzler, Konnetikut, me oscar3d, and Mojo (who had an even hotter sample of this card) . All of us who've dealt with the P182 in order to make a decent and quiet gaming rig, and for all the shared research and cabling guidance.

Modo
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Post by Modo » Wed May 07, 2008 8:55 pm

Did you try the solution I proposed? It wasn't a joke, I've seen it work a couple of times.

oscar3d
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Post by oscar3d » Wed May 07, 2008 11:33 pm

Hi Modo, yes I forgot to mention I tried to run it fanless. Thank you.

It kept the card on idle at about 60C, but then fifteen minutes late it was at about 68C.

The motherboard temp went up to 46C on idle. CPU was steady on idle at 40C.

Not a very good prospects to run any games, I did run RTDBHL test and in about 2 minutes the card went up to 93C

I'm sure it can work wellfor other video cards but not for an ultra.

I quickly turned off the computer and then worked until 3AM yesterday to put the card back on it's original cooler.


In another news:

It has been mentioned that the 9900GTX will have a TDP of 240W. (8800 Ultra has a TDP of 187W), and that a special CoolerMaster heatsink is being developed for it...

240W is just insane.... if this is true this is the end line for me. THere will be no quiet solution to that. With this energetic crisis, I'll point my finger to NVIDIA for this inhumanity and lack of enviromental effort.... We are indeed destroying the planet just to have a FASTER, FASTER, FASTER, FASTER, FASTER FASTER, videocard....

If that happens I think I'll just spend 300 more for a cosole, buy a midrange card to use my computer and made peace with myself.... :-)

Modo
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Post by Modo » Thu May 08, 2008 1:00 am

Thanks for the update. Too bad it didn't work. And good to know, in case I ever consider buying such a monster...

As to power consumption, next generation chipsets allow you to turn off the graphics card altogether. So it's not that bad, given that most of the time you don't really use it.

Fayd
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Post by Fayd » Thu May 08, 2008 10:44 am

you didnt try the setup i would have recommended. go for the HR-03 w/o a fan. but... put the soundcard in (if it can fit.. it looks like it *might* be able to.

the soundcard will actually help in this case.

take the pci blankout covers behind the hr-03 out.

and put a fan in underneath the 8800's power connection, blowing out towards the pci slot covers.

this will move air over the hr-03, and push air out of the case. win win imo.

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