The quest for the HTPC

Show off your quiet rig.

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Kate
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The quest for the HTPC

Post by Kate » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:56 pm

Not a long ago,

And after reading a lot about the possibilities of a HTPC, and the idea of storing all my CD, DVD library, not to mention record HDTV, and play BluRays made me want to built a nice one!

As always, I started with the Motherboard, and for that I choose a simple down to earth XFX Geforce 9300, with has the 730i, with a pretty good IGP with HDMI (for both audio & video), the motherboard looked pretty nice...

For the processor I choose a cheper E8500, I thought about going QUAD but I guessed it would be too much for just a plain and simple HTPC.

I had some old Corsair DDR2 XMS2 800 Mhz memories laying around, 3gb to be exact (1 pair of 1gb and 1 pair of 512mb).

I also bought a Seagate 7200.11 1tb harddrive, a MBNT-MAT 80mm, Noctua 120mm 800rpm, and the case... well... I got a very cheap case because I am still debating over the Mstation 5000 and Antec Remote Black. For DVD I got a simple LG DVD-r and a Sony BDU-x10s for BD.

For TV tuner I bought a Mygica HDTV Tuner X8507 and for wifi I got the DWA-520 PCI card.

For the Powersuply I choose Enermax Eco 400w, a pretty little modular fan.

So... I gathered all the stuff and went to my friends place to put it together...

Took us a few hours to put it all together, we removed all motherboard heatsink, cleaned the old paste replaced with AS5, and I took the oportunity to take some pictures:

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XFX Geforce 9300 Motherboard


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the MCP

The heatsink is not very good, and it doesnt fit tightly to the motherboard, it might be a concern (heatwise).

After assembling every thing we installed Windows 7 x64 and PowerDVD 9.

We fired up the system and we tried a BD...

IT FAILED!

PowerDVD 9 and Windows 7 x64 does not like each other, so we re-installed the x86 version and everything was perfect.

The problem we 1st had, because of the ridiculous cheap case, was HEAT.

Well the CPU was ok even when using the Intel Stock cooler, ok I admit I cheated, the cooler was originally from my Q9550, as people told me it is better because its copper made.

The problem was the MCP and GPU it gave us 70C idle! which is WAAAY too much....

Image

To counter the heat problem, ur 1st try was to add a tiny and noisy 40mm fan directly to the heatpipe, it changed nothing!

The temperature was still 70C idle...

The second attempt, we tried using a better exhaust fan so we traded the Noctua 120mm 800rpm to the 1200rpm version. It lowered the temperature to 65C idle, temperature was still high, for me.

So I was seriously thinking that the case ventilation was VERY poor, and I started looking for reviews of the Ultra Microfly, I even found a mod at MNPC tech, but the mod was a bit extreme and I am not a fan of simpsons, and of course I lack all the tools to make that new bezel.

I asked my father if he could drill me an 80mm fan hole and attach a fan, so cold air could get IN, as I suspect the front MNB-MAT is not able to get enough from the outside.

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We installed an 80mm CoolerMaster fan, and surprisingly the temperature drop a lot it went from 70c idle to 63c idle.

I told my father that 63 is TOO MUCH still, so we added another 80mm but this time an exhaust fan at the top...

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The temperature didnt change a BIT... sigh... I hate having warm components at home...

But i didnt want to give up, I took the HTPC out of the HT cabinet, and then... the MCP and GPU temperature dropped to 56C!

Yes 56C! Now im really getting happy!...

Ok adding the two fans added a lot of noise, first because Coolermaster fans are not silent at all, but also because the case is so bad that it vibrates even when the HD is in action, and to make things worse the stock Intel cooler SCREAMS....

But hey! I already ordered a Nexus low 7000, and after new's year I will get either the MStation 5000 or the Antec Fusion Remote Black.

But for now....

Image

I tested the HTPC in my projection room, it is a fairly large 11x6 meters (710 ft2) with a 106" full HD projection screen, using a Sanyo Z2000, a 7.1 speaker system (Kef IQ9, Kef IQ6C, Kef IQ8ds, Kef IQ5, Velodyne DSL-4000r). The Denon 4808 didnt recognize all the 8 channels at first, but then I changed the configuration at Control Panel/Sound to 7.1 and thigs worked amazingly.

The Denon, when I play BD thru the HTPC, it shows at M Direct 7.1, I read somewhere that with the new ATI 5xxx cards it is possible to send real DTS-MA and Dolby True-HD, but for now Direct LCPM is fine!

The HTPC with the Microsoft Entertainment Keyboard is simply GREAT, the W7 Media Center is amazing!

I liked the HTPC so much that I will use it in my main living room, not at the projection room, the stup is slightly different, but with Rotel RB-1080, RB-993, RSP-1098, 52" LCD HDTV, B&W 703, HTM7 and B&W 705 and also velodyne DLS-4000r, its a 5.1 only but the HTPC will be alot more useful there.

Here are more photos, and hmmm... please mind the mess, the room is getting a new paint, so we removed most of the furnitures and still did not put it back...

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the 106 screen

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Merry Xmas! :)
Last edited by Kate on Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CA_Steve
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Post by CA_Steve » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:48 pm

<hugs the setup and wonders when Kate will adopt me> :D

RoGuE
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Post by RoGuE » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:03 pm

what made you want to go with an 80mm fan on the side?

120 moves way more air, and by the looks of it your dad just used a jigsaw to make the cut..would have been same amount of work to cut a 120mm hole. oh well

nice home theater u got there! i want!

Kate
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Post by Kate » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:09 pm

CA_Steve wrote:<hugs the setup and wonders when Kate will adopt me> :D
LOL... :)
RoGuE wrote:what made you want to go with an 80mm fan on the side?

120 moves way more air, and by the looks of it your dad just used a jigsaw to make the cut..would have been same amount of work to cut a 120mm hole. oh well

nice home theater u got there! i want!
The 120mm fan does not fit in there, there is a piece of metal to give the case stability.

It wasnt really a jigsaw, it was a driller with this saw-cup adaptor, noisy little thing...

And yes I am a big fan for music and video, spent quite a lot of money into two HT system, each one have an specific setup, this one is fore movies only, while the other is more a mix, but a bit more refined for music.

:)

RoGuE
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Post by RoGuE » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:23 pm

Kate wrote:
RoGuE wrote:what made you want to go with an 80mm fan on the side?

120 moves way more air, and by the looks of it your dad just used a jigsaw to make the cut..would have been same amount of work to cut a 120mm hole. oh well

nice home theater u got there! i want!
The 120mm fan does not fit in there, there is a piece of metal to give the case stability.

It wasnt really a jigsaw, it was a driller with this saw-cup adaptor, noisy little thing...

And yes I am a big fan for music and video, spent quite a lot of money into two HT system, each one have an specific setup, this one is fore movies only, while the other is more a mix, but a bit more refined for music.

:)
Oh i see. I'm surprised he got away with the hole saw...It looks like a very clean cut, and usually those things are messy f_ckers. pardon my french :)

kater
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Post by kater » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:25 pm

Here's how I dealt with excessive heat on the MCP in my 2nd setup. My case is also v cluttered, and it only has 1 exhaust (thru PSU). With no direct airflow on the little MCP heatsink I was reading >80 there. Ouch. Really burns your fingers.

Enter Scythe Mini-Kaze.

A 40 x 40 x 10 fan @ 4000 when running @ 12V. A v quiet thing if you ask me - gets drowned by the 1000 rpm PSU fan (need to swap it soon). When I run Mini-Kaze @ 9V it becomes practically silent in this setup. And definitely can't be heard when the HTPC is 3 m away. The fan is secured with a zip tie. I still need to replace the original smallish heatsink with a beefier copper one I have, BTW.

Temps dropped to <55. 8)

I put another one on my discrete VGA (need it for my ancient CRT TV :oops:). Same story here. No fan - way over 70. Fan - 50something.

I have yet another one and put it on the NB in my main setup (for some serious OC tests). I run it at 9V and it also helps.

You can't expect these fans to help you move air in or out of the case, but they DO work great when place in the right spots, on the right heatsinks.

You said you placed a small fan on the heatpipe directly. Try undervolting it and placing (or use a Scythe Mini-Kaze) on atheheatsink.

About your PSU - to reduce clutter in the case you could try, some day, a DC/DC converter (e.g. just like the one reviewed here). I had such thingy in my previous HTPC case (still don't know why I sold it away... miss it so much, my sweet DC/DC...) where I couldn't use a standard ATX PSU. My setup is a little more power hungry than yours (a 45nm CPU vs 65nm) and it is well within 100W measured at the wall, fully loaded.

Kate
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Post by Kate » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:28 am

RoGuE,

Well my father argued about the hole saw too, but he said that there was a chance if we do it very slow, and it worked.

I was not really worried because the case is cheap and if the acrylic breaks, well, its broken, you know?

It would just make me choose between the Mstation 5000 and the Antec Remote Black sooner.

:)

Kater,

In my experience it all depends on the case, when the case has good ventilation, only 1 intake and 1 exhaust is ok. However the Microfly is deficient in that way.

I will try the mini-fan but I honestly doubt it will make any difference, as the case lacks proper ventilation, thats why we added two fans to "force" air in and to "force" more air out, the computer became very noisy, but it is temporary. :)

As far as the PICO-PSU, I read about it, but I honestly do not want that, I prefer buying a case like Antec Fusion Remote black, which is silent, use a regular PSU, and in the future, add an ATI HD 5830 (when they release it) because the 5xxx series can send DTS-MA and Dolby True-HD natively thru HDMI.

I am not a fan of OC, actually, I like the computer undervolted, just to generate less heat, so we can have much less noise.

Once I read that the Thermalright IFX fits the 730i, however it does not fit inside the microfly case, in the future I might buy the IFX and use it in the MCP to make temperature better! :)

Thank you for your input!

:)

hybrid2d4x4
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Post by hybrid2d4x4 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:50 pm

Very nice setup! It's good to see quality full-range speakers rather than satellites :)
As a fellow 730i owner, I think you're getting overly anxious about the temps. I don't like high temps either, but you have to keep in mind that this chipset is a hot little bugger. Most people with this chipset idle in the 70-80s and peak around 100- and this is pretty typical with stock cooling in video cards. I've thought about the ITX myself, but ended up saying "screw it" and settled for 59 idle, 71 full-load using a small bit of ducting.

Kate
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Post by Kate » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:01 pm

Ok.. so... update time...

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I still have to install it, on my main living room, but for now... As it needs constant attention and tweaks, I am using it in a small wooden desk...

I have opted for the 3Rsystem HT-5000 case, which... is not Moncaso or Origen AE and it is not as quiet as Antec Remote Black... but its a quite good looking case, a bit on the nerdy side, but actually a good case.

The case has place for 2 80mm fan, it comes with only one, the original fan is cheap and a bit noisy...

However since I still do not have better fans I am using both the original and the NMB-MAT fan...

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Also please note that I already have the Nexus LOW-7000 with me, but have not installed... actually I dont even know if its going to fit, Im just postponing the mess of disassembling everything just to install a better (much better, hopefully) CPU cooler...

In the photo above, you can clearly see the two fans... the bottom one is the original fan...

Well, I have not done ANY cable maganement yet, so please dont mind the " ugliness ".

I might buy a set of Nexus 80mm fan and replace both...

I opted for a Zalman 500w PSU, the enermax 400w was not enough for a future graphics adaptor upgrade.

Well about the GPU... notice that I am currently using a very bad and noisy ATI x1550, why? Well.... Long story... I just discovered that with the onboard VGA port, the little touchscreen blinks... yes.. it flashes several times when watching movies, but it doesnt happen with an external VGA...

Its pretty weird that it happens, I have tried changing all the possible configuration, I have tried using the original W7 drivers, including the most recent one. I have tried changing BIOS settings, I tried a different power supply... But nothing solved! I even exchanged the case thinking that it was a issue with Soundgraph's Imon LCD...

So yes, temporally... I will be using the x1550... I am itching myself not to buy the x5750... Well it can bit stream the newer audio formats even with PAP....

Overall I liked the case, I just miss not having 2 120mm fan as the 80mm ones are a bit noisier...

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The touch screen is a nice.... hmm.... touch? well... function wise it is not really "fuctional" as the case is indend to be 2 or 3 meters away, so the touch screen is actually not really useful... But its nice looking...

Its going to be very hard to "silence" this HTPC, but I will try and I will do my best to do so...

Anyways, I hope you enjoyed! :)

Kate
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Post by Kate » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:13 am

I think I have solved the "blink" problem with nvidia driver...

I read somewhere about modding the driver's .inf...

So i started the nvidia display driver installation, after it unpacked the whole files I stopped and editted the nv_disp.inf (on my case, located at: (c:\Nvidia\DisplayDriver\195.62\WinVista_Win7_64\English)

and added the line:

HKR,,OverrideEdidFlags0,REG_BINARY%,20,29,03,05,00,00,FF,FF,04,00,00,00,7E,01,00

to the [nv_commonBase_addreg__01] up till [nv_commonBase_addreg__06]

Then I simply uninstalled the display driver from the computer and executed the setup.exe on the nvidia directory (c:\Nvidia\DisplayDriver\195.62\WinVista_Win7_64\English) in my case!

So I guess.... I wont need to spend money on the ATI 5750, I will surely wait for the 5350 or the cheaper 5xxx ATI card that support PAP audio!

:)

BTW the SG7 lcd display used by iMon / SoundGraph is manufactored by HAI and has EDID 20,29,03,05

Yoshimitsu
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Post by Yoshimitsu » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:10 am

Wow very nice HTPC and Projector room :D

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Post by bonestonne » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:28 am

M-Station looks way better than that Apevia Q-Pack. My sister got that case, and it's a nightmare must be a grounding problem with it because sometimes it wont fully start, powers on, but never POSTs. other times it works just fine.

room looks good though, i'd probably just put some edging around the holes in the wall to neaten it a little.

Kate
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Post by Kate » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:30 am

hello Bonestonne,

Apevia is horrible... But I never had any problems with it...

The walls? hmmm well as I said in the post, the Room was going thru some "surgery" :p

That day, that specific day, they removed almost every big furniture, and the "things" fixed to the wall, so they could start working on the next day.

Right now the room, has a better paint, new furniture, and drywall finishing for the screen.

Yoshimitsu,

thank you! :)

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:56 am

ha, just noticed, you might want to flip that exhaust fan around in the M-Station...you might want that blowing air out?

I might look into the Thermalright VRM heatsinks and one HR-05 to cool the chipset better, that heatpipe mess looks a little sloppy (i'm just as picky about low temps).

Maybe a Ninja Mini would fit in there?

Kate
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Post by Kate » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:51 pm

bonestonne,

Yup! You are right, the back fan is blowing air IN, simply because the MCP/GPU was a bit too hot! And doing that I could make the temps get some 5C better!

However... I will install the Nexus Low 7000 CPU cooler, which should help with temps, so then I will flip the back exhaust fan.

Also I decided to bite the bullet and get myself an ATI 5750, the idea of being able to bitstream Dolby True HD and all PAP audio without any loss is simply... Breath taking...

And well, as i said previously I will install the Nexus 80mm fan (when they arrive) then think of cable management, and permanently close the case to only open it once a year for a good interior cleaning...

However, we never stop!.. next will be a bigger HD, then a NAS.... Endless possibilities....


:)

Jipa
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Post by Jipa » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 pm

Dunno why, but the layout of that case looks awfully messy/non optimized or something.. The front fan is just pushing air into the case, while the HDD-cage is nowhere near the fan and seems to be designed mainly to block the use of any proper graphic cards! :D Maybe I'm just nit-picking, but after seven HTPC-case-reviews I just think the layout could have been better...

Anyway enough of the case, you probably aren't willing to chop it up too badly anyway :) Good luck with the setup and having a couple of HD5750's around, I can warmly recommend the card!

Kate
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Post by Kate » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:40 pm

Jipa wrote:Dunno why, but the layout of that case looks awfully messy/non optimized or something.. The front fan is just pushing air into the case, while the HDD-cage is nowhere near the fan and seems to be designed mainly to block the use of any proper graphic cards! :D Maybe I'm just nit-picking, but after seven HTPC-case-reviews I just think the layout could have been better...
Hello Jipa,

Well, the case is far from being perfect, it is not, as I said previously a moncaso or origen ae case, so yes there are several flaws, but we have to take into account that this case costs around U$150,00 and it comes with that cool touch-screen!

About the GPU, well its an HTPC not a gaming machine, so I dont want to install anything THAT big, and I know the 5750 will fit, which is much much more than enough for BD/DVD and media center use and even most of the current games in 1920x1080...

Thanks you!

Kate
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Post by Kate » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:48 pm

Ok... so... more updates..

After pestering a friend for several hours, we finally got the Nexus LOW-7000 installed... So yes, the Nexus LOW-7000 fits XFX 9300 Motherboard nicely, but only in that direction!

Image

Amazingly, the MCP temp droped from 66-70C to 51-53C idle!! I am in love with Nexus LOW-7000C already...

The CPU temp dropped a lot from the stock intel cooler, I dont remember the exact temps before, but right at this time using only 7% of CPU i get 45-47C, which is pretty good, if you consider the ambient temperature is 27C. Yes... 27C, the air condicioning malfunctioned today, gotta call the company tomorrow to have it checked.

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I tried to organize the cables a little, it is a lot better than it was before, but not really the way i wanted, but... well.. not sure if i can do any better than this...

The only thing missing is the Ati Radeon 5750, which should arrive thursday and the two "silent" 80mm fans that I ordered from Performance PCS.

:)

PS: The LCD still blinks when I connect it with the on-board nvidia card, thanks god I got a 5750 on the way.

Kate
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Post by Kate » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:42 pm

Ah...

Finally the ATI 5750 arrived, I will not post a photograph of it's box as it can be found everywhere in the internet.

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I had to move the original HDD cage to the right, the case allow us to move the cage. However, it makes cable management worse!

The ATI itself is very silent when watching movies or playing light games, I have not tested with "bigger" games, I might in a few days...

Disabling the internal GPU, made the MCP temperature go down to 51C, if you guys remember it right, on the first "built" of this machine the MCP was at 70c! So a 19C drop! For me its JUST FANTASTIC!

I have two problems now...

1- the 80mm fans are noisy, especially the NMB-MAT;
2- the 120mm fan that comes with the Nexus LOW-7000 a bit loud too;
3- cable management, will be a problem.

I believe it will be pretty easy for me to solve all this, I might buy a better PWM 120mm fan, and I am considering buying that 80mm to 120mm adaptor so i can fit a 120mm fan to the back of the case.. The problem is space, it will not fit inside the case, so if I use the adaptor it will have to be on the OUTSIDE, which will make the HTPC very ugly.

I will wait for the Nexus 80mm fans, and check if I can handle the noise, if not, i will just dump the 80mm and go for the 80-120 adaptor and work from there!

Anyways, any ideas will be appreciated!

Thank you all for the patience.

lucas82
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Post by lucas82 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:06 am

Very, very nice.
Congratulations for the beautiful work.

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