KK Concept Case

[xavierk]

After inquiring about the current mATX high performance cases in another forum we came to the conclusion that no PC enclosure exists yet which combines our mutual hunger for ridiculous (read: normal, for us) cooling with mounting options for modern combinations (RAID0+SSD, long GPUs) and an aesthetic that doesn't scream for attention.

So we have been hard at work to produce a plan for a minimalistic case.
This is the result.
EDIT: Updated with new renders, please comment.
EDIT2: Updated again with new renders.
EDIT3: Updated again with sketches.


http://www.matchboxcomputers.com/k2/case1.png

http://www.matchboxcomputers.com/k2/case2.jpg

http://www.matchboxcomputers.com/k2/case3.jpg

EDIT4, 5 march 2011: Another sneak preview of a new layout idea. Allowing us to go even smaller. With the HDD's smallest dimension facing the front of the case, we can make the case less wide. There will still be support for hotswapping by placing the retainers in the middle between both drives.
This new preview also shows the layout of the internals. As far as we know this is the first time such a layout has been attempted (correct us if we are wrong) and we would like feedback. Note the PSU placement.

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. tl;dr DO NOT STEAL THIS.

We are looking for input from the community. Don't be shy, we can take criticism, but please, do try to be constructive.

As for specs: This is an mATX case, it's rendered with correct proportions. It will hold any single chip GPU, two hotswappable 3.5" HDD's and one 2.5" in the back. A slimline DVD/Blu-Ray drive. Room for a normal PSU. In the front is a 180mm, in the back a 120mm fan. Room for tower CPU heatsinks. Right front button is the on/off switch, left one is a reset button with HDD activity LED. Right lid the slimline optical drive. The motherboard is on a tray with a hole for easy access for mounting backplates. The case can be opened by taking off the top and sides (this will be one piece of metal)

Our preference is for clean, lean minimalist lines dictated by function

We hope this case will appeal to you when it is finished.

This is a collaboration between Sjaakwortel from Tweakers.net, and me (Xavier K.)
Kind regards,

[ces]

nice.

[ces]

It is hard to make a comment about the internals without a more clear illustration of them.

The more holes the better though. I think the best philosophy is not to rely on the case to keep things quiet. Keep the case open and rely on good components (and indirectly good cooling) to keep things quiet.

[xavierk]

What about positive pressure, are we doing it right?
We will be updating this thread soon, with a new revision, that will showcase the internal layout a bit more thoroughly.

[ces]

What about positive pressure, are we doing it right?
We will be updating this thread soon, with a new revision, that will showcase the internal layout a bit more thoroughly.

In my opinion aerodynamics is so complicated, especially in a computer case, that the only way to know something for sure is to test it.

That being said, it is pretty hard to outsmart yourself if you have a lot of holes everywhere. Positive pressure is good. It is what I prefer... but you don't need a lot of it to keep the dust out. You don't need to aspire to create a wind tunnel.

One fundamental principal: if you want something cooled, don't rely on fancy aerodynamics that are likely to vary from build to build (from different PSU cording, different CPU heatsinks, etc. that will vary from case to case). Instead place the fan right next to what you are trying to cool. Simple, crude, predictable and reliable.... and less affected by individual differences between different builds.

Cooling happens not in the internal spaces of the case, whether large or small. It happens just at the very surface of what is being cooled. If you can get the heat from that surface into the interior space of the case, it doesn't take a lot or air movement to then move the heat out of the case faster than the heat is being generated. The weak link will always be transferring the heat from the say 40C surface into the 30C case air... not moving the case air out fast enough so it doesn't climb from 30C to 33C. Who cares if you are going from 40C to 30C or from 40C to 33C.

I don't think I explained that well. Does that make sense to you? Maybe some else can explain it better.

I would start designing from the inside out. If you can put up a diagram of the internals it will help people provide input.

[MikeC]

We mainly ask for advice on airflow and the silent front. Is our airflow setup optimal this way?
From the article:http://www.silentpcreview.com/Case_Basi ... mendations

The requirement of indirect noise escape paths means that the front bezel should act as a baffle that forces sound to travel around angles so that it loses intensity before exiting the case, while at the same time, allowing the air to flow unrestricted.

This aspect is really difficult to visualize concept for us. Can someone maybe explain this in some detail? Maybe make a drawing with MS Paint? This would be seriously appreciated.

It is not complicated. The most common way to achieve this is to add a couple cm to the "depth" of the front bezel so that a cavity is formed between the usual metal front panel (with holes in it for airflow) and the plastic bezel. The front plane of the bezel is left closed, but the edges or perimeter of the bezel is vented. Air comes in all around the bezel. Because most of the perimeter is vented, the total vent area is large, thus there is little or now airflow restriction. But because the front portion of the bezel is closed, the noise is blocked (somewhat).

Lots of examples -- the recent Lian Li cases we reviewed, all the Fractal cases, Antec P180 series, Antec Solo, etc...
A much simpler method is to use angled "shutters" like this: http://www.ejsproducts.com/shutters_2.jpg

Naturally, the type of material used for the front bezel (and the rest of the case) makes some difference in the effectiveness of the noise baffle. The hybrid composite material in the Antec P180 series was chosen for its excellent internal damping and better than normal noise blocking ability.

The acoustic blocking aspect of this concept becomes useless with high speed fans or noisy HDDs -- they make enough noise to blast right through any ordinary type of material that PC cases are made of, they don't need any holes to become plainly audible. The components inside still have to be fairly quiet for the "baffled" bezel to have any real benefit.

My thoughts on your design....

1) Do you really need a 180mm fan in front? There is much more choice in 120mm fans. CPUs these days don't require that much airflow to cool with a big tower HS. You already have a 120mm exhaust fan immediately behind the CPU/HS area.

2) The PSU/CPU fans interaction will probably be a key issue. It is in conventional PSU on top ATX mid tower cases. This explains the PSU setup in the Silverstone SG07. If you flip the PSU so its intake fan pulls air from the outside, there won't be a fight for airflow w/the CPU fan.... but at higher loads, as the PSU fan speed increase, the noise will be more plainly audible. But maybe this is not an issue, because at >150W loads, the user is probably immersed in gaming.

3) Form should follow function... but I have to say the shape/size of your design is not pleasant to me. Much the same reaction I have to the Lian Li PCV254. My 2 cents -- for an ideal performance micro-ATX case, a smaller, more precise, less embellished version of the way-too-big Mini P180 would be easier to position or carry, take up less space on the floor or desktop, and have a nicer shape. See -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

[xavierk]

Lots of examples -- the recent Lian Li cases we reviewed, all the Fractal cases, Antec P180 series, Antec Solo, etc...
A much simpler method is to use angled "shutters" like this: http://www.ejsproducts.com/shutters_2.jpg

Thanks for the detailed response, Mike Another example we know from experience is the ASUS VENTO TA891
.
We are debating between the shutters and the two "air scoops".

1) Do you really need a 180mm fan in front? There is much more choice in 120mm fans. CPUs these days don't require that much airflow to cool with a big tower HS. You already have a 120mm exhaust fan immediately behind the CPU/HS area.

The key words here are big tower HS. You will not be able to place a Prolimatech Megalahelem in this thing, thus more airflow is needed. The 120mm exhaust fan is also supporting the CPU HSF.

2) The PSU/CPU fans interaction will probably be a key issue. It is in conventional PSU on top ATX mid tower cases. This explains the PSU setup in the Silverstone SG07. If you flip the PSU so its intake fan pulls air from the outside, there won't be a fight for airflow w/the CPU fan.... but at higher loads, as the PSU fan speed increase, the noise will be more plainly audible. But maybe this is not an issue, because at >150W loads, the user is probably immersed in gaming.

. You are absolutely right. We actually changed this already in our most recent plan. The downside is that people should be less inclined to put soda cans on the thing, but some will still play with their safety In our experience, most PSUs today are not the greatest source of noise in an idle system. This is usually the HDD. The HDD's will thus be placed at the back of the system, the PSU will face up with the 120mm fan side, and will not bother internal components with its heat.

Much the same reaction I have to the Lian Li PCV254. My 2 cents -- for an ideal performance micro-ATX case, a smaller, more precise, less embellished version of the way-too-big Mini P180 would be easier to position or carry, take up less space on the floor or desktop, and have a nicer shape.

Surely you mean the Lian Li PCV354 (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/pr ... s_index=63) instead of 254? The Mini P180 is another example of a case with a vertical motherboard orientation.

Again, thanks for the informative response. This kind of feedback is what we are looking for We will post new renders soon

Kind regards,
K&K

[quest_for_silence]

Much the same reaction I have to the Lian Li PCV254. My 2 cents -- for an ideal performance micro-ATX case, a smaller, more precise, less embellished version of the way-too-big Mini P180 would be easier to position or carry, take up less space on the floor or desktop, and have a nicer shape.

Surely you mean the Lian Li PCV354 (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/pr ... s_index=63) instead of 254? The Mini P180 is another example of a case with a vertical motherboard orientation.

Are you familiar with SPCR HomePage, aren't you? I'm sure MikeC well knows the last enclosure here reviewed (PC-V354).

However, your first iteration looks me like something already somehow seen: no, it's not the V354, but it's the LanGear DABOX 100.

[ces]

This may be way out there.... But.........

What if you just started with a motherboard and a Noctua NH-C14 Dual Fan Top-down CPU Cooler. It is king of the hill at the moment:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1138-page6.html
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 562&page=5

Then build the case around that.

Use the case to directly funnel all the external air (usually 10 to 15C cooler) into the Noctua NH-C14, letting that air then cool the motherboard components. Then direct the air to supply still relatively cool air to the video board and to mechanical drives (if any) as it courses out of the case.

Thermalright even has a 120mm diameter duct designed to facilitate that very approach:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/th12fandubl.html
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/ ... _duct.html
(the red one is shorter and the blue one is longer)

[MikeC]

Yes, PCV354. (Fugly thing, imo.)

IMO, the ASUS VENTO TA891 front vents look way too restrictive. (Just looking at that pic)

Also the HDD position is irrelevant with such a short case, esp. when it is meant to be placed on top of the desk. The close proximity of the noise sources to the user will make everything pretty much equally audible no matter where they are placed in the case. The key -- if you are seeking to make a quiet system for on-top-of-desk use -- is to maximize airflow/cooling w/ absolutely minimum fan speeds, and don't use any HDDs.

Also, for noise/airflow, a 120mm fan is probably a sweet spot. The velocity of the impeller tips increases with diameter, which means a 180mm fan has to spin considerably slower to have the same freq. of impeller tip noise as a 120mm fan. But spin it too slow, and airflow drops too much. Consider, too, the fact that focused airflow is more effective (as per Silverstone's grid-filtered fans), and this is harder to achieve with too large a fan.

[xavierk]

Yes, PCV354. (Fugly thing, imo.)

IMO, the ASUS VENTO TA891 front vents look way too restrictive. (Just looking at that pic)

Also the HDD position is irrelevant with such a short case, esp. when it is meant to be placed on top of the desk. The close proximity of the noise sources to the user will make everything pretty much equally audible no matter where they are placed in the case. The key -- if you are seeking to make a quiet system for on-top-of-desk use -- is to maximize airflow/cooling w/ absolutely minimum fan speeds, and don't use any HDDs.

Also, for noise/airflow, a 120mm fan is probably a sweet spot. The velocity of the impeller tips increases with diameter, which means a 180mm fan has to spin considerably slower to have the same freq. of impeller tip noise as a 120mm fan. But spin it too slow, and airflow drops too much. Consider, too, the fact that focused airflow is more effective (as per Silverstone's grid-filtered fans), and this is harder to achieve with too large a fan.

Again, thank you for the response. We have made multiple purchase decisions based on information on the SPCR website. Including 120mm fans. Including the Scythe S-Flex SFF21E and Nexus D12SL-12.
As for Silverstone. The 180mm fan is actually from them (http://silverstonetek.com/products/p_co ... P181&area=) and (http://silverstonetek.com/products/p_co ... N181&area=). We do not know the difference between those two fans, but they are both designed for focused airflow.
As for HDD placement, thanks for the information. Based on this we might place them closer to the user, since it doesn't matter anyway, if it means more room for tower coolers.
And we agree on that Lian Li, it IS fugly.

Are you familiar with SPCR HomePage, aren't you? I'm sure MikeC well knows the last enclosure here reviewed (PC-V354).

However, your first iteration looks me like something already somehow seen: no, it's not the V354, but it's the LanGear DABOX 100.

Heheh Of course we are, but we don't know every Lian Li ever produced by hearth (we should ).
As for the LanGear DABOX 100. The component placement is well thought out with regard to large tower coolers and compactness, but it relies on strange and seemingly random fan placement (like the tilted fan on the top). Also, our front does not look like that.

@ces: We have opted against the use of elaborate ducts, because you can never be sure of the layout you are going to use. The duct would only be usable for a fraction of them. Also, with a mesh right next to them and a 120mm exhaust fan nearby, we do not anticipate them to require any more airflow. Thanks for the idea though, we will keep the idea of 'guiding' air to its destination in consideration.

Now, without further ado, we present our new renders. Higher resolution, and with a clear view of the backside so you can distinguish more of the inside.

[see the first post]

EDIT: Renders with glass sidepanels coming, for a better view of the insides. DONE

[cordis]

Reminds me a little of the QMicra case: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6009/ ... html#blank
Well, to the extent that it has a 120mm fan in back. This case also has the external 5.25" bays, they're probably unnecessary these days, but they'd be handy for drive suspension. And there's a bunch of stuff about a watercooling system for the case, not sure where that fits in. Utlimately, it's a bit bigger than what you're looking for, I'd imagine.

[xavierk]

Reminds me a little of the QMicra case: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6009/ ... html#blank
Well, to the extent that it has a 120mm fan in back. This case also has the external 5.25" bays, they're probably unnecessary these days, but they'd be handy for drive suspension. And there's a bunch of stuff about a watercooling system for the case, not sure where that fits in. Utlimately, it's a bit bigger than what you're looking for, I'd imagine.

Yeah, we had a discussion about the Qmicra case together. That company doesn't seem active to me. We plan on isolating the HDD cage with rubber. We expect a shift to low rpm storage drives that do not require suspension, combined with SSDs for OS/software. 5.25" would have a severe negative impact on size, airflow and apart from drive suspension, we see no real use for it, with slimline DVD drives avaiable for cheap.

EDIT: See previous post for new renders!

[frenchie]

A few ideas
Keep those side intakes for CPU and GPU (make sure you can fit an large GPU aftermarket cooler between the side of the case and the GPU, something like 3 PCI slots worth of free space)
Get rid of that front fan and front intake. It'll make it look nice (IMO) and will keep the sound away from the user. If you want some intake, have something like Mike suggested (little vents on the side)
Use the front intake as intake for the PSU, mounted vertically with the vent on top, that'll free up some space and give it it's own fresh intake (add some nice design for the PSU exhaust )
Put the DVD player (if there is one, I don't understand what that red line is) vertically, against the side of the case (use a slim one)
Have an SSD mount right under the PSU on the floor of the case
Have the HDDs side by side above the CPU heatsink (you already have one there, put the other one next to it)

What kind of HDD attachement do you have ? Not screws I hope [EDIT : Never mind, I just reread the previsous post ]

[xavierk]

We can see we really need to work on the clarity of our renders...

A few ideas
Keep those side intakes for CPU and GPU (make sure you can fit an large GPU aftermarket cooler between the side of the case and the GPU, something like 3 PCI slots worth of free space)

If you have an mATX SLI / CFX board this may be possible. For now we are focussing on dual slot cards. One of the design objectives is size, after all. Also, the Gainward Phantom (just a recent example we have a vivid image of) cooler looks too huge, that is a three slot cooler. I think most people will use two slot cards, mATX SLI will usually not work with anything bigger. We have owned a cooler with three white fans, don't recall what it was called. Was for a GTX260. In this day and age there are two slot coolers that perform on par with that one.

Use the front intake as intake for the PSU, mounted vertically with the vent on top, that'll free up some space and give it it's own fresh intake (add some nice design for the PSU exhaust )

We have some designs and will try to measure, calculate, fit and render them tomorrow that do exactly this. The intake for the PSU will be on the front, the 120mm fan will be on top (as it is now, just look closely, there is a mesh over it to not disturb the aestetic)[/quote]

Put the DVD player (if there is one, I don't understand what that red line is) vertically, against the side of the case (use a slim one)

Already done, too The right grey vertical line is the front of a slimline DVD player. The red line is for appearance's sake only. The left vertical line will contain a fan controller for the front and rear fan.

Have an SSD mount right under the PSU on the floor of the case

We have made some rigorous changes to the HDD / SSD positioning and will be showing you our latest renders soon!

Have the HDDs side by side above the CPU heatsink (you already have one there, put the other one next to it)

In this render there are actually two above the CPU, with some space in between for airflow, if you look closely But we will show you our new revision, soon!

What kind of HDD attachement do you have ? Not screws I hope [EDIT : Never mind, I just reread the previsous post ]

. Do not worry, we have learned the hard (loud!) way that screws per se are not the ideal vibration isolator for HDDs

Kind regards,
K&K

[MikeC]

3-slot coolers, btw, are not unusual these days... and may be necessary to run the hottest GPUs quietly.

[xavierk]

3-slot coolers, btw, are not unusual these days... and may be necessary to run the hottest GPUs quietly.

Three slot coolers CAN be placed, of course, as long as they do not exceed the boundaries of the motherboard. On all three mobos on this page: http://www.brighthub.com/computing/hard ... 48399.aspx (I am using this merely as an example) this will be possible if you use the first PCI-Express slot. If you wish to use the second slot this will not be possible. But this situation will only arise (if we are not mistaken) under the following condition:
1. You can not use the first SLI slot for your GPU (why not?)
OR
2a You wish to use SLI (meaning: both cards are the same) (this will be impossible anyway on most mATX boards since the second card will be blocked by the first card's three slot cooler)
On single PCI-Express x16 boards: they will never be positioned at the bottom of the motherboard (usually first or second slot, leaving three in any case)

EDIT: Did you edit our posts about mATX dimensions?

[xavierk]

As you can see we have updated our renders. We have made a lot of changes.
1. The PSU's orientation has been changed by 180 degrees. This way it profits from the intake fan and allows for even the highest tower coolers.
2. We have followed the advice on indirect noise escape paths with regard to the 180mm front fan. It is now covered by plexiglass, but can still take air from the side holes. Do you think they will allow enough air?
3. HDD's are behind the PSU.

We are thinking about pushing the PSU down and making the case wider but less high, e.g. more closely to the golden ratio.

Please tell us what you think so far!
-K&K

[xavierk]

We've made some radical changes...
1. Reoriented the PSU. Case is now way thinner. This meant sacrificing the 180mm but we've added an intake duct near the CPU.
2. Possible to add any known CPU cooler.
3. Possible to add DUAL CHIP GPUs like the AMD 6970
4. Possible to add HIGH GPUs like the GTX480
5. More exterior and interior changes.

Renders with components will be coming soon.

Please comment.

[frenchie]

Can you explain where the PSU and HDs will be ?
(or I can be patient and wait for the renders )

[xavierk]

Sure we can Only a picture says more than a thousand words.
The PSU will be in the front, intake facing the front. Tilted on its side. This hasn't been done before as far as we know so it may be tough to visualize.
The HDD's will be above the GPUs, seperated of course.
The PSU used to be above the GPUs, making this a somewhat high case. Now we are making the most effective use of the space we have...

[MikeC]

Sure we can Only a picture says more than a thousand words.

But your pic does not show this.

The PSU will be in the front, intake facing the front. Tilted on its side. This hasn't been done before as far as we know so it may be tough to visualize.

This could work... with a quiet enough PSU.

The HDD's will be above the GPUs, seperated of course. The PSU used to be above the GPUs, making this a somewhat high case. Now we are making the most effective use of the space we have...

Dimension appear a lot nicer than your orig -- which was honestly a dog. lol!

[xavierk]

Sure we can Only a picture says more than a thousand words.

But your pic does not show this.

LOL! You're right, of course, but I meant that renders are on their way.

The PSU will be in the front, intake facing the front. Tilted on its side. This hasn't been done before as far as we know so it may be tough to visualize.

This could work... with a quiet enough PSU.

Yeah we're lucky to have Enermax but not everyone We have took the advice of this board and implemented an indirect noise path... It may look open on the front but that's actually a plexiglass window. So the air is actually coming from these babies:

The HDD's will be above the GPUs, seperated of course. The PSU used to be above the GPUs, making this a somewhat high case. Now we are making the most effective use of the space we have...

Dimension appear a lot nicer than your orig -- which was honestly a dog. lol!

Heheh, yeah we strayed from our objective too much. But we're back on track, minus the overkill cooling. We're going for smart cooling now. No randomly placed fans. Just mesh near the CPU and a small intake fan (92mm probably) for the GPUs in the front, next to the PSU. and an 120mm outtake fan near the CPU cooler.

[xavierk]

New sketch uploaded. We're sorry the previous ones didn't provide much of a clue to the placement of the internals. This one aims to resolve that. Beneath the two HDD's will be room for two GPUs of the biggest sort. The biggest and widest CPU coolers will be able to be placed inside this chassis. Effectively allowing the user to make zero compromise on cooling, while still having the smallest form factor possible. Screen taken with the 120mm fan placed. If we replace it with a 92mm fan we will be able to keep an edged power connector within the chassis and exit through the back. With 120mm the power connector will exit through the right side.

Ending on a normative note, ATX PSUs are way too big. There should be a sub-1000 wattish standard in a much smaller form factor.

Let us know your thoughts!

[frenchie]

How do you make sure the GPUs don't heat up the HDs ? do you have a physical separation planned between the two ?

[xavierk]

How do you make sure the GPUs don't heat up the HDs ? do you have a physical separation planned between the two ?

The HDD's will be above the GPUs, seperated of course. Also there will be a 120mm/92mm fan making sure there is no stationary air in that area.

[quest_for_silence]

Note the PSU placement.

How about rotate it by 90°C, with the usual exhaust grille on top? It may be less practical, but maybe more effective with reference to cooling.

About the CPU heatsink: as the Prolimatech Armageddon or the Thermalright Archon (not to mention the forthcoming Scythe Susanoo) states, CPU coolers are becoming taller and wider than before: how much will be the actual clearance in your concept?

[ces]

Why would you have cooling grills on only one aide of the case. What can you gain by not having them on both sides?

[xavierk]

Note the PSU placement.

How about rotate it by 90°C, with the usual exhaust grille on top? It may be less practical, but maybe more effective with reference to cooling.

About the CPU heatsink: as the Prolimatech Armageddon or the Thermalright Archon (not to mention the forthcoming Scythe Susanoo) states, CPU coolers are becoming taller and wider than before: how much will be the actual clearance in your concept?

We've measured the Archon in our design. It fits.
Rotating 90 degrees celsius is not an option, way too hot J/K we know what you mean but think about it.
The connectors would be inaccesible. They would be on the floor of the case. (They are always oposite the exhaust).

Why would you have cooling grills on only one aide of the case. What can you gain by not having them on both sides?

We have cooling grills on the left side for the GPU, and on the right side for the CPU. Not the entire right side needs to be grilled right? Since the CPU cooler is always near the back? Or are we missing something?

[ces]

We have cooling grills on the left side for the GPU, and on the right side for the CPU.

I don't see it on the CPU side.

And still, why would you not put full ventilation on both sides? What is the reason for not doing that? It can only help. What makes you think it will harm anything?