ATX case:PSU on bottom, 120mm in front & back. Exists?

[Bruce Ballslap]

Hi!

There are cases spacy enough to install 120mm fans in the front and at the back. But the downside with the cases I've come across is that the powersupply has to be installed at the top of case. This makes no sense to me. If you already have a 120mm fan next to CPU, you dont need any extra exhaust in the form of a PSU fan.

If you could mount the PSU to the bottom, its fan wouldn't be sucking hot air from CPU and therefore decreasing its efficiency. Heat rises, so PSU would get as cool air as possible. Hey, an even better idea! How about a case where you could mount a PSU with a 120mm fan the same way it would be at the top. This way the PSU fan would suck outside air through the hole on the floor of the case. PSU would continually get cool air and high efficiency would be granted.

The best place for the 120 mm fan would be at the topmost position at the rear of the case. Most of the risen hot air from CPU would be sucked out. If the fan was right next to CPU, some hot air would remain circulating inside the case.

I even drew an awesome sketch for you



My question is, does a case like this exist?

Thank you.

[PPGMD]

The PSU sucking air from the bottom would also be sucking alot of dust too. Which is a bad thing unless you put a filter on it.

[lm]

Well it would be dead easy to filter it. And the psu would need much less air since at floorlevel the room temperature is at it's lowest unless floor heating is used. And that coldest air in the room would be much less than the hottest air in the computer case, which usually goes inside the psu.

[Bluefront]

Why do you want the PSU on the bottom of the case? A PSU with a bottom 120mm fan it quite capable of cooling the whole computer....after some mods. Like this.

The setup you propose might fit in a standard mid-tower, if you used a MATX motherboard, and opened up the botttom slot holes to fit the PSU....

[josephclemente]

I agree with Bluefront... A PSU can help cool the rest of the computer, not just itself.

I still don't understand the "keep the PSU away from the rest of the computer" group, LOL.

[Rusty075]

The Lian-li "V" series cases are exactly what you're looking for Bruce. There's even a mini-review of the V-2000 in the Cases section.

[Ized]

I've seen couple of cases like this:

Coolermaster Stacker has possibility for two PSU's, so you could setup one on the bottom leaving top out:

http://www.coolermaster.com/special_rep ... tc-t01.htm

Lian-Li also has one similar, with special "3 compartment setup", which looks interesting, but is very expensive:

http://www.lian-li.com/products/pcv1200.htm

[Sooty]

I agree with your lay-out idea BB. After identifying the computer components that benefit most from cool air-flow (in respect of reliability), my conclusion was:

1/ Hard Drives (most)
2/ PSU
3/ CPU & MOBO (least)

If you’re a serious over-clocker, you might not agree with this. I’m not into games, so I use a low wattage Matrox 550. Most high power graphics cards appear to have integrated ‘quiet’ arctic cooling style cooling – so that takes care of that.

So having identified which components need what cooling, I found the following cases to be the best:

Yeong Yang 0221: This is my fave case. This solution uses a cube case with two separate chambers, one for the mobo and the other for drives. PSU mounting plate can be reversed so the PSU is facing conventionally, downwards. I’d use an Enermax NoiseTaker, and would therefore cut a 92mm vent directly under the PSU’s 92mm fan, then fit a 92mm alu mesh filter. The front door needs a filter too – just stick a sheet of car repair alu mesh on the inside of door. Bare-bones pics below (it's a hansome case with it's panels/door on)



CM Stacker: It comes with a vent under the PSU, but I believe it would be better to replace the vent’s filter plate with a decent alu mesh filter – no big deal. It does have a few compromises: 1/ The highly vented front drive panels. These can be covered on the inside with acoustic dampner material, and just leave the panels you want as air intakes with the supplied air filter material. 2/ The highly vented side panel – best to opt for the windowed side panel.

The Lian-li "V" series are an interesting concept, but I personally think the overall result is air-flow that doesn’t improve on the best conventional cases, plus the front has way too much venting, and it’s 100% aluminum construction.

[Bruce Ballslap]

I agree with Bluefront... A PSU can help cool the rest of the computer, not just itself.

I still don't understand the "keep the PSU away from the rest of the computer" group, LOL.

LOL back at you.

Did you even care to read my post? If you would actually read prior to throwing your useless laughs, you would notice that the idea was to keep PSU's efficiency as high as possible. For your own good, in life generally, next time you dont understand something, ask instead of laughing.

Heat is an enemy when it comes to efficiency. If PSU was the only route out for hot air, efficiency would be decreased. Why do you want high efficiency, you ask. Simple: smaller power bill, longer time of operation and lower rpm for PSU fan. You dont have to take my word for it. SPCR's PSU-articles appreciate high efficiency as well.

Rusty075, Ized and Sooty, thanks for your constructive posts. Nice cases. Sooty, your suggestion looks great! If only it was a bit smaller .

[AntecRep]

For most PSU's rated efficiency is under 70%. Take that in consideration that MTBF numbers are taken at 25C (which I'd assume the efficiency numbers are taken from) that's the goal you're trying to achieve correct? (BTW PC Power and Cooling is the only PSU manufacturer that I know of that uses 40C for their MTBF numbers).

BTW I'm not certain at what temp the efficiency numbers are taken (even though I work at Antec).

As far as placement of the PSU in current cases, it stems from the original ATX design, when Intel was saying the PSU was to be the main (if not only) source of exhaust in the case (actually at one time they wanted the PSU to have an intake fan).

Cabling may be an issue, really depends on the PSU and mobo.

And yes we're looking into alternate PSU locations as well.

AntecRep

[josephclemente]

Wow! This is the first time I've ever come across such a defensive character on SPCR. Relax, Bruce. I am both surprised and sorry I offended you.

[Trip]

Lian Li

[Bruce Ballslap]

Wow! This is the first time I've ever come across such a defensive character on SPCR. Relax, Bruce. I am both surprised and sorry I offended you.

uhh.. There's a slight possibility I overreacted.

However, the reason I replied was that your post didnt really contribute to the thread. The question quite simply was "is there a case like this?" and you basically replied "that's not the way to go, your plan is totally wrong, lol" even though I reasoned my plan in detail.

Anyhow, you dont have to be sorry. It's cool.

[Bluefront]

I'm also surprised how you reacted. You have to realize this is SPCR....the mods we promote here are geared to making our computers quieter, not more energy efficient, not to make them last longer. If I remember correctly some PSUs actually increase in efficiency under load...hotter.

To me it seems reasonable that fewer fans mean less noise. Your mod might make the PSU fan run slower, but you would have to speed up the case fan to compensate for the decreased airflow out of the case. So in effect you've gained very little for a lot of trouble and expense.

[mg1394]

So, I'll propose an experiment for "overreacted" Bruce to perform.

Simply measure the watts used by a machine with the PSU at the top and measure the outlet temperature of the PSU.

Then, using a heat gun or similar source of hot air, insert additional hot air into the PSU until the outlet temperature rises, say 10degC. Make the same energy measurements with the elevated temperature and see if the PSU dropped in effeciency. I have tried similar experiments and seen no difference (at say 30 degC and 40 degC.)

[lenny]

If PC P&C's ads are to be believed, max. output drops with higher temperatures.

Many PSUs these days have temperature controlled fans, so lower temps = less noise from PSU.

In general, two fans spinning slowly will generate less noise than one fan spinning fast, when both setups are generating the same airflow.

Bruce, search for MikeC's ghetto external PSU setup, as well as PSU ducts. It might get you what you want without having to buy a CM Stacker, which is actually pretty close to your description. There is an intake at the bottom of the case, and you can build a shroud to redirect most of this air to the PSU.

[Gholam]

Looking at the pictures of CM Stacker, I don't think you'd even need a shroud to duct the bottom PSU, as long as it has a bottom intake. A rear intake PSU can be ducted by just slapping on a cardboard box, and that seems workable on both PSU locations.

[Bruce Ballslap]

You have to realize this is SPCR....the mods we promote here are geared to making our computers quieter, not more energy efficient, not to make them last longer.

To me it seems reasonable that fewer fans mean less noise.

I dare to question this. You would think a lot of SPCR people do care whether they have to replace their components every 6 or every 24 months. Also, power bill and energy conservation can be of interest to many people, especially if you can find equally quiet mod compared to a less conservative one.

In any case, fewer fans is not always the only route to quietness. Right amount of fans combined with the right amount of rpm can give similar or better results.

mg1394, thanks for the results of your experiments. Unfortunately, I really dont have the equipment to test that myself.

[lm]

Raises hand for energy conservation & long component lifetime. You are not alone.

Imo this goes hand in hand with quietness.

I also prefer to strip my machines of all extra eyecatchers like useless leds etc. Visual quietness! My university has couple hundred Sonatas for computer classrooms, and they have those horrible blue leds connected... When you look from the back of the computer room, it looks like a highway at night, the long row of really bright lights. I've had toughts of breaking every single bright blue led from those things...

[Tyrdium]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I bought the SLK3700-BQE over the Sonata. No ugly blue LEDs! Could I change it myself? Sure, but I'm too lazy for that.

[tibetan mod king]

I have a variety of Lian-Li cases and they are mostly of poor design when it comes to cooling and keeping case temperatures as low as possible.

In the latest models which have the hard drives in the bottom compartment, without serious flow through this compartment -- more than the current design delivers -- the hard drive temps go up and stay up (and these days, drive temps are perhaps the most important component to keep low!). In order to get enough flow you need to crank up the 120mm fan (noisy) or add more fans. And do something about the PSU which is then trying to cool itself again using warm air. One more braindead design from people who think form and not function...

The CM Stacker is a much better design as it comes standard with a blowhole exhaust fan and the PSU can be mounted on the floor of the case. The hard drives are optimally cooled with cool intake air for every drive (something the Lian-Li new models do not deliver on). The case is very well vented and with optimal cooling components (i.e. big heatsinks), the case will breathe well and be very quiet, especially if you replace the top fan with something a bit quieter than the stock 24dBA.

In general I have found the older dual-compartment (one side for processor, one side for hard drives, PSU) designs made of steel cool better and are much quieter than aluminum cases. Unless you get a very expensive aluminum case with thick walls, you get case hum which is very hard to get rid of. I find a big Antec case of mine with 8 fans -- but built of many lbs of steel -- was *far* easier on the nerves than my Lian-Li PC-73SL with non-modded PSU. I also have another of these big Antec cases (SX1440B) with two de-volted 92mm fans per side and the thing runs very cool and quiet... dual P3 board inside...).

For my Lian-Li, I ended up mounting my PSU (the ear-splitting designed-by-noise-lovers PC Power and Cooling 510) outside the case and am cooling it push-pull style with two de-volted Panaflo fans running at 7V each. The PSU is quiet now and the case is cool.

I suppose I can say that I am in complete agreement that the PSU should not be exhausting hot case air, especially coming off the CPU. This is a very stupid Intel design that no one should have copied and instead should have told Intel to take a hike with their planned obsolence component killer designs...

Anyhow, good luck with your case. I don't know of any modern case besides the CM Stacker that is designed for good cooling and low noise.

If you want a picture of yet another dumb design:
http://www.nexustek.nl/breeze.htm

No cooling power, hot zone for the drives, and drives the PSU to low efficiencies with maximal hot air concentration. Of course the component makers love these cases that quietly cook your components and make you upgrade more quickly and send your drives in for data recovery....

Antec should go back to making great cases... made of steel... and intelligently designed. With the Phantom and other smart ideas there will be a renaissance in case design... as today's cookers just aren't very smart, not very efficient, and not very quiet.

Intel should not be allowed to have any input into PC design as their goal is profit maximization at the expense of the customer. They force bad designs on the industry to make everyone upgrade and upgrade and upgrade and upgrade... It is an endless treadmill..................................................

[josephclemente]

No cooling power, hot zone for the drives, and drives the PSU to low efficiencies with maximal hot air concentration. Of course the component makers love these cases that quietly cook your components and make you upgrade more quickly and send your drives in for data recovery....

That Nexus Breeze is superior to a lot of cases which are not cooking components.

Component makers don't have to wait for heat to cause people to upgrade. Normally the stuff just becomes outdated.

When a person's 10 year old hard drive dies in a case full of dust (and the case fans stopped working years ago), I say it's about time.

[Trip]

tibetan mod king, Lian-Li cases don't look very well designed to me either. However, they are some of the only ones with bottom PSUs.

If I bought a Lian-Li, i'd be sure to modify it.

josephclemente, I'm hopeful future computers won't need to be upgraded as often. Do we really need to upgrade for higher quality graphics and sound? Media centers and gaming beasts will advance, but hopefully we'll be able to keep our word processors and internet surfers for a while longer. If Microsoft requires an upgrade, people might be able to switch to Linux or another.

[tay]

But joseph youve surely seen a lot of the new cases that have 2 side blowhole/vents near the AGP/PCI and CPU areas instead of front ventilation. I shudder at what this would do to suspdended drive configurations. Of course if you put a 5v L1A blowing over your drive you forego that, but you have to figure out a mounting location for that fan if one isnt readily available.

In any case *snicker* I think a PSU duct ala MikeC is a great way to avoid moving your PSU to the bottom and leaves a much larger selection of cases to work with. You cant use a 120mm fan with a PSU duct tho so YMMV.

IMO the perfect option is to duct the CPU out directly like bluefront and rusty have done among many others. If you get an Arctic cooling VGA silencer you can duct your video card as well. This is yet another great alternative to moving your PSU around and instead using the PSU airflow to passively cool the HDs.

I have a psuedo psu duct myself and a 9volted L1A blows out air that is only somewhat warm even in the summer.

YMMV etc. but there are easier solutions than moving the PSU around that solve the same problem.

[Trip]

I like moving the PSU to bottom, but the new thermalright xp-120 heatsink is so amazing that all you need is a good open intake vent and an open exhaust fan to run a quiet beast.

I don't think a PSU duct would even be necessary if it was at the bottom of the case, and a bottom PSU would provide for a less top heavy case.

The CPU should prob. be at the top near a case exhaust and GPU with its own exhaust fan via a PCI slot.

[Badashmods]

I saw a silverstone case with 120mms and the psu on the bottom.

[autoboy]

Stupid answer to a stupid question:
Turn your case upside down and flip your CD-Rom over.

[Talz]

I've been growing more interested in the idea of placing the cpu below the rest of the system. More for the easy of a seperate PSU channel than anything else though. Not to help the PSU's efficiency so much as to simply keep it cooler and quieter under heavy loads. Now you can mod a low flow fan into a power supply for this result, but there is a reason even psu's targeted at the quiet pc enthusiast speed up under load, heat decreases the life expectancy of there parts. So adding even more heat via cpu exhaust etc just doesn't seem that great to me. This is less of an issue for low power systems, I use a 120mm fan power supply as the only case fan in my ICS/Gateway server quite happily, but that system tops out at somewhere around 50 watts tops for power draw. My main desktop on the other hand can push three maybe four times that for extended periods of time when I'm gaming.