Arrrrgh! Sonata pulling air through drive bays!!!

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:17 am

Dangit, im pissed of here. I've recently completed my latest project "Night Wind" on a Antec Sonata. I"ve been very impressed with the quietness of this case and using ideas from these forums and its worked out very well.

HOwever, the past week i've noticed a real problem. Even after all the front intake modifications, my system is STILL pulling air through the drive bay areas!! The result is i've got dust building up around the clip mechanisms and it looks awful. But what really concerns me is that this confirms that the system is still sufficating from lack of airflow.

To see how bad it was, I removed a rear PCI expansion cover in the back and tested a piece of kleenax over the opening and sure enough, it was pulling air inward, indicating the case isn't getting enough air.

I dunno what else I can do to prevent the system from not pulling air through the bay areas. I don't wanna cover them up, it will look awful and cheap. What are you recommondations? Here are some pictures of how the setup is right now.

When I think about it, i've got ALOT of CFM wanting to exhaust out the case including the NV5, 120mm fan and the PSU so hence, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that im not getting enough air intake passively.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:11 am

I had some Akasa Paxmate that I bought before I knew better. I cut them into thin strips and stuck it along the edges to make some sort of seal with the door. I don't know how effective they are, since I left the Antec holes open and most of the dust seems to get in through there. The hardest part to seal is the left vertical edge - perhaps using black electrical tape there would be a better solution. Looking at your mod, you should be much more mechanically inclined than I am, so if you come out with a better solution, please let me know.

Another thing to try is to elevate your case slightly to improve airflow from the bottom of the bezel.

Do you get any dust around the USB / firewire ports?

ilh · Post by **ilh** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:15 am

Where are you getting dust buildup? Is it behind the bezel between an optical drive and the case near the clips? If so, just tape around the optical drive/case junction to seal it off. I did this with electrical tape, although anything should work. If the Sonata is like my 3000B, that tape will not be visible once the bezel is in place. Basically, tape over any hole or gap you do not want air going in.

Of course air would get sucked into an open PCI slot. If your case didn't have "negative" pressure, no air would get sucked in anywhere, including the main front vent.

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:24 am

ilh wrote:Where are you getting dust buildup? Is it behind the bezel between an optical drive and the case near the clips? If so, just tape around the optical drive/case junction to seal it off. I did this with electrical tape, although anything should work. If the Sonata is like my 3000B, that tape will not be visible once the bezel is in place. Basically, tape over any hole or gap you do not want air going in.

Of course air would get sucked into an open PCI slot. If your case didn't have "negative" pressure, no air would get sucked in anywhere, including the main front vent.

Yeah, its around the clip mechanism in front, i'd take a picture of it but im at work. You easily see where the air is going through cause the dust is building up where its entering the case. I really don't wanna put black tape cause then its gonna look like hell and cheap if I do it even though the benzel is closed most of the time.

Hmmm, I wonder if there is some way I can put foam or rubber around the edges of the door so no air can enter when the door is closed. Problem is, I dunno where i'd find rubber or foam insulation that thin.

Opsman · Post by **Opsman** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:31 am

I am installing my new system into a Sonata case TODAY! I plan to show pictures in a few days, but I'll let you in on what I've done so far.

I am going to cover up the Antec holes so I calculated the area of the holes. Ther are 91 holes per side and they are 3/16" in diameter. Total area is 2.5 square inches. Times 2 sides you get 5.0 square inches. I cut an 80 mm (~3") hole in the bottom near the HD cage. An old 80 mm fan shell was used and a filter was placed on it. This adds 7.1 square inches of area for air to now enter the case and flow up over the main components, exiting out the back.

The holes don't provide enough air for the 80 mm fan in the power supply so the drive bays are the nearest place for unrestricted air to enter. I plan on using weather stripping to fill the voids around my DVD drives and floppy drive so the easiest location for air to enter the case will then be the front (hard drive bay) and the bottom through my new hole.

In theory it will work well, but we'll have to see if the reality of it works out. Hope this helps you some.

P.S. Nice paint job on the case.

(Along with the rest of the case.)

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:37 am

Yeah, I thought about cutting an extra breathing hole on the bottom but I really don't wanna start hacking the case away. Im gonna see if I can seal the drive area around the door so air can't enter period.

The worklog for "Night Wind" is here if you wanna see more

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=896025

Opsman · Post by **Opsman** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:59 am

The good thing about a hole in the bottom is that nobody will ever see the bottom and the fan shell on the inside with a nice filter on it looks great. I'll post a picture later.

I read about your case mod last week. I'm more than impressed.

ilh · Post by **ilh** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:37 am

I am not talking about putting tape behind the door but behind the bezel, between the optical drives and the steel case. On a 3000B this is nearly an inch behind the front of the optical drives, that stick through openings in the bezel. It isn't visible with the bezel on, door open or closed, so I don't know what you mean about it being ugly.

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Wed May 04, 2005 11:10 am

Ah I see, hmmm.. that would work though I went and picked up some thin foam weather stripping at Lowes and I think it will do the trick to seal the drive bay area. I'll work on it tonight and post my results later.

Opsman · Post by **Opsman** » Wed May 04, 2005 12:42 pm

IceWindius wrote:Ah I see, hmmm.. that would work though I went and picked up some thin foam weather stripping at Lowes and I think it will do the trick to seal the drive bay area. I'll work on it tonight and post my results later.

That is what I did. I have some 3/8" wide and 3/16" thick weather-stripping that I have used. It flattens out and fits tight spaces well. On the top of each DVD (I have a DVD-RW and a DVD-ROM) about 1/4" back, I have a strip of it. That seals the top/bottom of each space. I pulled the drives out several inches and put a long strip of weather-stripping down the sides as far back under the drive rail clips as I could, which wound up butting up against the back of the top of drive weather-stripping. It looks perfect.

The only other issue I had was the one open drive bay. I had to cut a piece of open-cell styrofoam (from packaging of a new color laser printer at work) to fit in the drive bay and add the same weather-stripping as the DVD drives to it.

Now, I can scarcely see any light from the inside when a flashlight is shone outwards. It is also difficult to see the weather-stripping unless you shine a light directly on it. Time will tell how well it works. Good luck on yours tonight.

StarfishChris · Post by **StarfishChris** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:11 pm

Apart from the appeareance, is the dust buildup around the clips a problem? i.e. is it likely to go into the optical drives?

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:26 pm

StarfishChris wrote:Apart from the appeareance, is the dust buildup around the clips a problem? i.e. is it likely to go into the optical drives?

Thats exactly what its doing.

Tom Brown · Post by **Tom Brown** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:53 pm

I'm not sure I can help you but I may be able to offer a little insight.

My system used to collect big gobs of dust and even dust bunnies around the drive bays. It didn't take more than a few days for it to become noticeable.

When I first assembled my Sonatas, I used to overclock my Barton pretty heavily (2.4 GHz) so I had the fans cranked up pretty good.

Now I run stock clock and I undervolt to 1.45v. The heat went way, way down. My CPU idles around 33C. I've got my fans turned back to just barely above stall speed. The airflow through the case is way down too.

One of the side effects of under clocking and minimal fan speed is that my drive bays barely get dusty anymore. I'll bet there is lest dust on them after a year now than there used to be after two weeks.

Please note that I passively cool my video card so the only fans are the L1A in my PSU and the stock Sonata case fan cranked right back.

If you could lose that active GPU cooler, it would help a lot. Another thing that would help is to move the case fan to the front but that will add to the noise. You must have quite a bit of noise as it is.

Now that I've stepped out of the speed race, my temps are down and my system is *just barely* audible. Keep in mind, it's a mini-tower sitting beside my huge white oak desk so it's not like it's right beside my ear. The only noise I really hear from it is the odd chirp of the hard disk but even that is not really noticeable and with a gigabyte of ram, it doesn't happen very often.

By the way... since I went back to stock clock and undervolt settings, I can't tell the difference in performance. I'm sure my Gentoo package compiles take longer now but that stuff is all scheduled for the middle of the night so I don't really care about it. I program all the time and I'd way rather have a silent system than knock a second or two off my compile times.

Good luck,

Tom

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu May 05, 2005 5:10 am

Excellent, excellent, excellent post!

I suggest that everyone read this and let it sink in. This sort of thing is what SPCR is all about.:

Tom Brown wrote:I'm not sure I can help you but I may be able to offer a little insight.

My system used to collect big gobs of dust and even dust bunnies around the drive bays. It didn't take more than a few days for it to become noticeable.

When I first assembled my Sonatas, I used to overclock my Barton pretty heavily (2.4 GHz) so I had the fans cranked up pretty good.

Now I run stock clock and I undervolt to 1.45v. The heat went way, way down. My CPU idles around 33C. I've got my fans turned back to just barely above stall speed. The airflow through the case is way down too.

One of the side effects of under clocking and minimal fan speed is that my drive bays barely get dusty anymore. I'll bet there is lest dust on them after a year now than there used to be after two weeks.

Please note that I passively cool my video card so the only fans are the L1A in my PSU and the stock Sonata case fan cranked right back.

If you could lose that active GPU cooler, it would help a lot. Another thing that would help is to move the case fan to the front but that will add to the noise. You must have quite a bit of noise as it is.

Now that I've stepped out of the speed race, my temps are down and my system is *just barely* audible. Keep in mind, it's a mini-tower sitting beside my huge white oak desk so it's not like it's right beside my ear. The only noise I really hear from it is the odd chirp of the hard disk but even that is not really noticeable and with a gigabyte of ram, it doesn't happen very often.

By the way... since I went back to stock clock and undervolt settings, I can't tell the difference in performance. I'm sure my Gentoo package compiles take longer now but that stuff is all scheduled for the middle of the night so I don't really care about it. I program all the time and I'd way rather have a silent system than knock a second or two off my compile times.

Good luck,

Tom

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Thu May 05, 2005 9:16 am

Ehh sorry, aint sacrificing power for noise, im a gamer, need all the CPU cycles that my machine can muster.

That being said, this foam insulation on my drive door seems to be working.

Tom Brown · Post by **Tom Brown** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:18 am

IceWindius wrote:Ehh sorry...

Windius, there is no need to apologize to us. Many of us have inaudible systems.

If you're over clocking and have to vent a bunch of heat, I would suggest you have selected the wrong case. I would encourage you to look at a case with a bunch of fans and airflow, instead of a quiet computing case. They are different animals.

The quiet computing case doesn't flow a lot of air and has restricted intakes to reduce the amount of noise leakage. This is what people like us with nearly silent systems want.

The over clocking case has AIR FLOW and lots of mounting points for fans. This sounds like something that might be up your alley.

We all have different goals. That's why they make different cases.

- Tom

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:57 am

IceWindius wrote:Ehh sorry, aint sacrificing power for noise, im a gamer, need all the CPU cycles that my machine can muster.

That being said, this foam insulation on my drive door seems to be working.

In that case I highly recommend the Centurion 5 - airflow second only to the CM Stacker. Well, not quite - there is this:

http://www.svc.com/tech14x8-blk.html

Can you post some images of your foam insulation for the drive door? I'm very interested. Thanks in advance.

BlueCan · Post by **BlueCan** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:34 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:Excellent, excellent, excellent post!

I suggest that everyone read this and let it sink in. This sort of thing is what SPCR is all about.:

I totally agree, but won't re-post it again.

Having just re-built a PC for my wife (see 'Hers:'), I will attest that carefully selecting components based on their heat-generation profiles, getting the performance you "need" versus what you "desire" and tuning the airflow of any case can get you to "quiet".

In her new box, the CPU is at 41C running F@H 24/7. The 92mm Nexus runs at 750RPM. Speedfan keeps turning off the case fan, so the PSU is exhausting the hot air, and doesn't spin above 800 RPM.

It's a darned sight better than my "Quiet" Sonata (which ain't all that bad). If I knew then what I know now (I wouldn't have a growing bin of "spare quiet parts" that weren't as quiet as I'd wanted)...

-Patrick

Opsman · Post by **Opsman** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:41 pm

IceWindius wrote:Ehh sorry, aint sacrificing power for noise, im a gamer, need all the CPU cycles that my machine can muster.

Same here...I'm a gamer, but I want the case to be near silent the rest of the time when I'm not gaming. That's why I chose the Sonata. It has taken a little work, but I'm pretty pleased with my mods (see Sticky Sonata thread). The airflow in my case has been dramatically improved and my CPU (Athlon64 3200+ venice core) under full load only gets to 49 degrees and the case temp never gets above 42 degrees. LOTS of hot air is being exhausted out the back and I haven't detected any air getting sucked in around the DVD drive bays. Mission accomplished.

Mockery · Post by **Mockery** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:16 am

IceWind, i've said this before, but i LOVE your Night Wind case.

Anyway, about the airflow...

Alot of people are saying to tape up the holes around the optical drives to prevent the dust, but if i read you correctly, this is just a symptom of the problem that your system can't quite breathe properly.

I know the mods you made to the front bezel, but when the case sits on the floor, there's barely any way for air to get through the bottom opening, meaning 1/3 of your cutting has been a waste.

I keep meaning to try putting my case up on something like a 1" block of wood, of about the same dimensions as the case-feet. (it's like the 'shotglass mod', i suppose.) It should give enough elevation to increase the bezel intake by 50%, in theory.

Of course a plain block of wood is kinda ugly, but it can be painted fairly simply...

Dane · Post by **Dane** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:50 am

Perhaps something like this could do the trick (Only delivered in the U.K though) http://www.slicksteel.co.uk/stands.html.

Ignore the rubish website (They're only a steel company after all ). I'm sure someone in the states will make smething like this. I'm thinking of getting one for my sonata once I've made it significantly quieter.

The sonata (About 465 x 205) will overhang very slightly at the sides and stick out just the right amount at the front to allow airflow to enter the bezel.

Just a suggestion for any Brits out there.

Dane.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:29 pm

I am quite surprised nobody has mentioned positive case pressure as a solution to a severe dust problem.

You need only add a powerful fan somewhere, pulling air through a good filter. You could turn your rear case fan around, blow it in, filtered somehow. As long as there is slightly more air blowing in than the PSU is sucking out....you have positive pressure and no dust problem.

This setup can be as quiet as a dusty negative pressure case....

pony-tail · Post by **pony-tail** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:16 pm

If you're over clocking and have to vent a bunch of heat, I would suggest you have selected the wrong case. I would encourage you to look at a case with a bunch of fans and airflow, instead of a quiet computing case. They are different animals.

The quiet computing case doesn't flow a lot of air and has restricted intakes to reduce the amount of noise leakage. This is what people like us with nearly silent systems want.

Not necessarily so :-
It depends on how much time, money and modding skills you are prepared to put into it .
I have a Sonata ( and I admit it was not a good choice for my idea of computing) but I have had better results from a modded (heavily) InWin V series case (pulled apart completely and rebuilt from scratch) but in the long run it cost me more than the Sonata .

inti · Post by **inti** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:37 am

The Sonata is not an overclocking/gaming case by any means. I've recently taken to playing X2: The Threat, with the following consequences:
* the graphics card gets hot enough that it occasionally resets itself
* after 5 minutes of play the motherboard is hot enough that the audio chip produces distorted audio
* the CPU once overheated so much that it triggered the motherboard's emergency power shutdown (ASUS COP): that means more than 100 degrees C, I think.

I'm not filling the system with hot components by the way:
ATI Radeon 9550 (passively cooled) at stock speed
Athlon XP-M 2500+ at 1.45V with a 10% overclock (1.9 GHz)
Stock Sonata case with front bezel mods and PSU duct separator; stock case fan at 5V; stock PSU.

My solution to these problems is to open the side panel door while gaming. As an additional benefit that actually reduces overall noise levels, because with the door open there is less case resonance and less fan "whoosh" - note that I sit on the right hand side of the case, there would probably be more noise on the left hand side with the door open.

I think the Sonata would be a very different case if only it had a CPU intake duct.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:07 am

inti wrote:The Sonata is not an overclocking/gaming case by any means.

I think you meant that the Sonata is not an overclocking/gaming case by any means IF you undervolt your fans to 5v... I'm pretty sure Sonata is not the only case that would have this sort of problem in this scenario. Sonata's PSU has a role in removing the heat from the case, the fan in bottom has a reason for being placed there. Now that you have ducted the psu to keep it from cranking up rpms, you have also ruined the natural airflow of the case. Even more you have also undervolted the case fan to minimum. So is it no wonder that heat starts building up. This pattern also leads me to the conclusion that you also have your cpu cooler at 5v. With a little bit of moderation you could easily play games without the problem of overheating.

IsaacKuo · Post by **IsaacKuo** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:03 am

Bluefront wrote:I am quite surprised nobody has mentioned positive case pressure as a solution to a severe dust problem.

You need only add a powerful fan somewhere, pulling air through a good filter. You could turn your rear case fan around, blow it in, filtered somehow. As long as there is slightly more air blowing in than the PSU is sucking out....you have positive pressure and no dust problem.

Why stop with just one flipped fan? Flip the PSU fan also, and you've got a torrent of air entering the case!

inti · Post by **inti** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:54 am

Erssa wrote:
inti wrote:The Sonata is not an overclocking/gaming case by any means.
I think you meant that the Sonata is not an overclocking/gaming case by any means IF you undervolt your fans to 5v....

It's a fair cop! (Although it also has to be said that X2: The Threat is probably one of the most demanding PC applications there is - I think it is a better all round system stability test than Prime95.)

Now that summer has (finally) arrived here in the UK, I've put the case and CPU fans back onto the Antec PSU "fan only" molex, which probably is giving them around 6V-7V judging by the noise levels.

I don't agree with you that ducting the PSU is a bad idea. Ducting the stock PSU does significantly reduce the overall noise of the system, because that PSU generates approximately 40% of the total heat of the PC. It therefore benefits greatly from its own cool air intake from the 'Antec' holes. Ducting the stock PSU also in my experience improves drive temps, because the case fan is forced to draw all or most of its air intake from the front bezel openings.

I think there is also room for improvement with ducting around the case fan area (this comment applies generally to almost all PCs). The components that really need to be cooled are the CPU (hot air from the hsf needs to be extracted), northbridge, graphics card and power capacitors etc around the CPU. I'm now experimenting with ducting and channelling the case fan better to draw from those precise areas.