P180: Motherboard Warning!

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:59 pm

Watch out when installing motherboards in the P180! Mine just fried.

The motherboard mounting screws that Antec provides have a wide head that serves as a non-removable washer. Unlike any other case in which I’ve installed, the screw covers the entire metal mounting area surrounding each hole (although, granted, I’ve only had experience with cheap SLK3000B-type cases before this). Well, I spent most of the afternoon installing some heatsinks, modifying a Zalman NB cooler, testing some fans, etc. A few hours later, I had the motherboard installed in the case, and I flipped the power on. There was a small light show in the top lefthand corner, and then that terrible burning smell. Here are the gruesome pictures.

Screw:

Screw installed:

Screw removed:

It’s hard to tell because the piece melted, but it definitely wasn’t touching the metal screw. So I guess it arced? It’s not as if this was my first system install, and nothing like this has ever happened to me before. So now the motherboard is dead (obviously); I just see a few debug lights, and the PS won't turn on. Also, I have no idea if a few of the connected components were damaged, because this is the only 939, PCI-Express motherboard I have... so my brand new A64 3700+ San Diego and 6800GT are in limbo right now. And I haven’t worked up the courage to test my memory and PS yet.

Just a warning for those installing in a P180: you might consider avoiding the supplied motherboard screws.

This was a DFI LanParty NF4 Ultra-D, so anyone installing the DFI NF4 boards should be especially cautious.

dni · Post by **dni** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:05 pm

I was literally minutes away from setting up my system, with the exact same case and mobo.

I have old screws and I think I'll use those. I wonder if there's anything Antec Rep can do for you? IF it's because of the screws, there's no doubt Antec is (perhaps not financially) responsible for the damage to your case.

I'm very sorry to hear this happened to you. Like all of us, I'm sure you were anticipating your system very much.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:19 pm

idiot:

Your photo appears to be of the screw that is designed for the hard drives ... not the motherboard. The motherboard screws do indeed have a small flange, but it's not large enough to overlap the insulation on your motherboard. I'm curious to hear how you managed to make the drive screws fit properly ... you did install the brass standoffs in the motherboard tray before you screwed the motherboard in, right?

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:37 pm

Glad that I saved you from a potential problem!

Another option, if someone can't scavenge an old case for screws, would be to use the screws meant for the optical drive brackets. They’re quite a bit shorter, and there might not be enough to do both the motherboard and the optical drives, but I believe that the thread and the thickness iwill work. Just a thought.

And I’ve been going over it in my mind, trying to see if it was user error. I really don't think it was, but I have to assume that Antec tested this motherboard at some point. For this to happen, the screw would have to be seated off-center, and therefore off the area surrounding the hole. But I didn't notice that in any of the holes, and there really isn't too much jiggle room in the motherboard holes anyway, so I'm not sure how off-center it can actually move. I don’t know.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:52 pm

Devonavar wrote:idiot:

Your photo appears to be of the screw that is designed for the hard drives ... not the motherboard. The motherboard screws do indeed have a small flange, but it's not large enough to overlap the insulation on your motherboard. I'm curious to hear how you managed to make the drive screws fit properly ... you did install the brass standoffs in the motherboard tray before you screwed the motherboard in, right?

The standoffs came pre-installed, and I used those.

The manual never distinguished between the screws. I hadn't installed any hard drives yet, so I guess that's why I didn't notice that they were the wrong ones.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:51 pm

You definitely used the wrong screws. The ones you used were designed for the Sonata/BQE/P180 drive trays. The large flange is to fit over the grommets on the drive trays.

I initially made the same mistake on a Sonata about 2 years ago. The screw sizes are just a bit different and I had trouble removing the (wrong) screw once I tightened it.

sundevil_1997 · Post by **sundevil_1997** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:26 pm

idiot wrote:The manual never distinguished between the screws. I hadn't installed any hard drives yet, so I guess that's why I didn't notice that they were the wrong ones.

Owie. Sucks, man. Sounds like a mistake anyone could make, so don't feel like an idiot.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:04 am

m0002a wrote:You definitely used the wrong screws. The ones you used were designed for the Sonata/BQE/P180 drive trays. The large flange is to fit over the grommets on the drive trays.

I initially made the same mistake on a Sonata about 2 years ago. The screw sizes are just a bit different and I had trouble removing the (wrong) screw once I tightened it.

I guess that’s what I get for using cheap cases for all these years. All my past screw bags have had only one or maybe two sizes.

This screw fits in the standoffs perfectly and doesn’t feel incorrect at all. And even when tightened, I have absolutely no trouble removing and reinstalling it.

sundevil_1997 wrote:Owie. Sucks, man. Sounds like a mistake anyone could make, so don't feel like an idiot.

Thanks.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:21 am

Ye Gods! My sympathies. I guess I was lucky. I just did a brain transplant from my Centurion 5 to the P180, and I didn't have the same problem. Partly coz I moved the HDD, the optical drive, the floppy, the PSU and the MB in that order. In the process I found uses for all the different types of screws except fan screws

I even sorted them into different piles and counted to make sure that there are enough of each (there are, with extras).

The manual could have been better written..

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:44 am

I'm glad you didn't have any troubles! But, unfortunately, I'm typing right now on the hard drives that would have been installed in the P180. They were the only part of this old system that would be making the move, but they were still installed when I was building the P180 rig. I kinda wish that I'd installed in your order!

lenny wrote:The manual could have been better written..

Agreed.

IceWindius · Post by **IceWindius** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:54 am

Hmmmm, those are most DEFINENTLY not mobo standoff screws, those are HDD mounting screws. Hmmmm I HIGHLY suggest Antec changes their manual or they could have some seriously pissed of people as a result of doing this.

Then again, I thought most people knew the difference in case screws, guess I was wrong.

JerryT · Post by **JerryT** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:09 pm

Sorry to hear about that Idiot.

I have the same MoBo that I'll be installing.

I have a question for you guys who have your cases. What PSU are you using. I'd really like to pick up a Seasonic S-12 500w, but the ATX cable is only 16" according to the review, and that looks to be too short. Since we have the same MoBo's maybe you could let me know.

Thanks.

JerryT

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:51 pm

JerryT wrote:I have a question for you guys who have your cases. What PSU are you using. I'd really like to pick up a Seasonic S-12 500w, but the ATX cable is only 16" according to the review, and that looks to be too short. Since we have the same MoBo's maybe you could let me know.

I had major problems trying to use the Seasonic S12-430 (Rev 1) in this case with an Asus A8V Deluxe. I installed the PSU upside down (fan facing up).

The 24 pin cable is long enough, even without the 24 pin to 20 pin adapter, no problems there. But in order to get the ATX12V cable to the connector at the top left of the motherboard (when looking at it installed) it had to cross all the PCI slots and go under the AGP card. Not ideal at all. It gets in the way of the VGA Silencer. I untwisted the wires and it's still not long enough. Finally I had to build a temporary extension using a spare 20 pin ATX extension cable.

I think I'll go start a MB / PSU compatibility thread for the P180...

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:29 pm

IceWindius wrote:Hmmmm, those are most DEFINENTLY not mobo standoff screws, those are HDD mounting screws. Hmmmm I HIGHLY suggest Antec changes their manual or they could have some seriously pissed of people as a result of doing this.

Then again, I thought most people knew the difference in case screws, guess I was wrong.

The screws in question are not the standoff screws, they are the screws that attach the MB to the standoff screws. Certain Antec cases (BQE/Sonata/P180 and few others) are supplied with proprietary disk drive tray mounting screws (for the proprietary disk drive tray design) that have flanges similar (but larger) than the screws with flanges that are used to mount the MB.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:50 pm

There are 3 different types of screws in the bag (ignoring standoffs and fan screws).

The HDD shoulder bolts are very long, with a large head, threaded 6/32.

The MB mounting screws has a much smaller, flat heat. Threaded for 6/32.

The drive rail mounting screws looks like minature shoulder bolts, threaded M3. The head is not flat.

Here's a picture. Sorry about the slight blurriness : had to do this in a hurry. From left to right : extra MB standoffs (different from ones pre-mounted), drive rail mounting screws, HDD shoulder bolts, MB mounting screws.

preti9cboi · Post by **preti9cboi** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:34 pm

lol. Thanks for the tip. I've built about 5 systems to date and never really knew what screw was for what. I just assumed and plugged in whatever fit, lol.

I swear that first screw to the left, not the gold one, was the mb mounting screw. I must be lucky. hah

JerryT · Post by **JerryT** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:32 pm

lenny wrote:I had major problems trying to use the Seasonic S12-430 (Rev 1) in this case with an Asus A8V Deluxe. I installed the PSU upside down (fan facing up).

The 24 pin cable is long enough, even without the 24 pin to 20 pin adapter, no problems there. But in order to get the ATX12V cable to the connector at the top left of the motherboard (when looking at it installed) it had to cross all the PCI slots and go under the AGP card. Not ideal at all. It gets in the way of the VGA Silencer. I untwisted the wires and it's still not long enough. Finally I had to build a temporary extension using a spare 20 pin ATX extension cable.

I think I'll go start a MB / PSU compatibility thread for the P180...

Hi Lenny. Looking at the layout for your board, the ATX connector on my DFI is in just about the same place. Did you have enough slack in the ATX cable to route it out of the way? Luckily for me the ATX12v plug is right next to the main connector.
Yeah they really do need a compatibility list for this case.
Thanks.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:01 pm

I know what you mean. When I started I didn't even realize there were two different thread types, and I still have a hard time remembering which to use for what. Why does floppy and CDROM use M3 when hard drives use #6-32? Whenever possible I try to stick to the screws that came with the device, although I had a DVD writer shipped with the wrong screw type once.

At least M3 and #6-32 is easy to tell apart visually. M3 is the one with the much finer threading.

I usually try to guess what the various parts in the accessory pack are meant for. The Centurion 5 has a number of strange stuff that's not mentioned in the very short manual (the best part of which is "Now you can be Caesar" or something along that line).

The screw you mentioned (M3 for mounting rails to optical / floppy) does not fit into the MB standoff (the brass one - didn't try on the pre-mounted ones). You can actually just push it in and pull it out.

I found this thread in Ars Technica that offers some information for the really curious. There was a web site with much better organized information but I can't find it...

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:16 pm

JerryT wrote:Hi Lenny. Looking at the layout for your board, the ATX connector on my DFI is in just about the same place. Did you have enough slack in the ATX cable to route it out of the way? Luckily for me the ATX12v plug is right next to the main connector.
Yeah they really do need a compatibility list for this case.

I started the thread. But to answer your question here, the main ATX cable is long enough to clear the MB. There's even a little slack left, though not enough to really hide the cable. I tried my best to organize the cables and it still looks very messy. I wish there's a couple of openings to route some cables along the back. What really irks me is that I need to run the SATA power cables up to the main chamber then down again to the lower HDD cage. There's an opening large enough on the fan mount to pass the cables through, but not the connectors.

BadAim · Post by **BadAim** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:20 pm

I'm sorry to hear about your luck. The screws that come with today's cases can (and often do) create a question on how and where to use all of them. I have seen on-line quizzes in the past in which many could not identify where to use what screw. I know that probably doesn't help you deal with your loss, but at least you know you are not alone in your confusion.

/edit I found found the link I wanted to insert before http://www55.dixiesys.com/~bunker/sg03.html

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:40 pm

Thanks for the link!

More useless trivia : Lian Li cases use M3 screws for the chassis, while almost everyone else uses #6-32. There are places selling Lian Li M3 thumbscrews.

AntecRep · Post by **AntecRep** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:04 am

As already covered the wrong screws were used. We've already sent instructions to the factory to put the motherboard screws in a separate bag, labelled "For Motherboard".

AntecRep

scruzbeachbum · Post by **scruzbeachbum** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:12 am

Idiot: Sorry you had to be the smoke test beta for the case.

Antec rep: Thanks for the quick response!

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:38 am

scruzbeachbum wrote:Idiot: Sorry you had to be the smoke test beta for the case.

So am I. At least the packaging is being made clearer for the future, I suppose.

And at least ChiefValue lowered the price on my motherboard. $128. *sigh* Hopefully that's all that was damaged.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:04 am

whats with these new style motherboard standoff screws?

ive been building systems for a long while, and the screws used for the motherboard were always those same ones that were used on the outside of the case. those blocky hex style "Standard" case screws.

this is the first case ive seen that uses a different screw than the one i described above for holding down the motherboard.

but if i had gotten this case, i wouldnt have done what you did. i would have opened the bag of screws and said to myself "WHERE THE HELL ARE THE CASE SCREWS FOR THE MOBO!!!" then went trogging off to my big pile of leftover screws from old systems and used those. i definatly wouldnt have ever used the ones with huge flanges on them. they just look wrong

Dirty-Harry · Post by **Dirty-Harry** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:52 pm

AntecRep wrote:As already covered the wrong screws were used. We've already sent instructions to the factory to put the motherboard screws in a separate bag, labelled "For Motherboard".

AntecRep

Mine didn't come with any screws.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:01 pm

Are you sure? I don't mean to make you look stupid or anything, but did you check the little black container on the opposite side of the upper HDD cage? It's a reasonable mistake to make.

-Ed

Dirty-Harry · Post by **Dirty-Harry** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:12 pm

Edward Ng wrote:Are you sure? I don't mean to make you look stupid or anything, but did you check the little black container on the opposite side of the upper HDD cage? It's a reasonable mistake to make.

-Ed

OMG, I didn't even notice that little black plastic container. Thanks!

No bigger tho... I have a ton of screw. Like most of the regulars, we have a collection of spare parts and screws and the like.

Thank Edward.

ExpertNovice · Post by **ExpertNovice** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:11 am

Idiot,

man oh man oh man.... I really do sympathize for you. The money is one issue but the time lost and the not knowing about other components has to be nearing ulcer levels.

I and, as you have seen, many others thank you for your warning. You have cost MoBo manufacturers, middlemen, shippers, and outlets some money and saved us mere mortals from feeling your pain.

Thanks.

Lenny,

Thanks for your pictures. Hopefully I would have chosen the screws without what appears to be a built in washer. You have helped teach us all. Thanks.

JerryT · Post by **JerryT** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:02 am

Dirty-Harry wrote:
Edward Ng wrote:Are you sure? I don't mean to make you look stupid or anything, but did you check the little black container on the opposite side of the upper HDD cage? It's a reasonable mistake to make.

-Ed
OMG, I didn't even notice that little black plastic container. Thanks!

No bigger tho... I have a ton of screw. Like most of the regulars, we have a collection of spare parts and screws and the like.

Thank Edward.

Lol, I did the same thing

P180: Motherboard Warning!

P180: Motherboard Warning!

Thank you so much!