P180 Airflow Question

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:59 pm

This is the fan layout that I’m considering.

First, that’s a lot of fans installed. But I’m currently running them all at 12V, except the Zalman which is at 5V, and they’re really not that loud. Too load for a final build, yes, but my controller hasn’t arrived yet. Still, the noise is not that bad (though without hard drives running). And on the subject of fans, I really like the 38mm Antec (fan #6). It moves more air than the Yate Loons at the same (subjective) sound level, and the pitch is lower. Overall a great fan. I’m even running it on the medium setting for now, as it seems quiet enough, though I may change it to low when the other fans are slowed down.

If you have read the VGA duct thread, you’ll know that the duct is mostly useless for this motherboard, considering the placement of the PCI-e slots. So I’ve removed this, and am trying to figure out the best way to position fan #5 to cool the graphics card and (more importantly), the Zalman heatsink on the NB. I’ve only tested a few positions (namely blowing perpendicular to the NB, just as the duct would aim), but the one pictured seems to be the best, likely because it is supplemented by airflow from fan #4 (tomorrow I’ll try removing #4 to see if the NB temperature increases). I’m still testing this position, and although it’s not really my primary question in this thread, I’d appreciate any input.

Right now I’m trying to decide if I want to keep the airflow as pictured up near the CPU. My thought was to intake air from #2, to make a duct between #2 and the CPU fan (#3), and then leave #1 as a top exhaust. Though this plan should ensure that my processor and memory remain fairly cool (since I plan to overclock a bit), switching the rear fan (#2) from an exhaust to an intake would remove the vortex/windtunnel effect of air moving through the case (such as what exists in the bottom PSU/HD area). But when drawing a direct airpath from the front intake (#4) to what would be the rear exhaust (#2), air only crosses the CPU, while the PCI slots would reap the most benefit from such a setup. So I’m leaning toward the airflow path depicted above, with nice CPU/memory airflow and the intake just dumping air into the PCI region without any specific exhaust. It doesn’t really seem like a perfect solution. Again, any and all input is welcome.

Random note #1: the front intake fan (#4) cannot be hardmounted to the case while the filter is attached. If there is no separation between the fan and the case, the blades will be too close to a pair of plastic clips with which the filter attaches, and will hit them when spun.

Random note #2: As you can see, the power cables fit the motherboard fine, and there is still some slack in the lines that would allow them to be pulled somewhat out of the way (I haven’t done so here). This is an S12-430 on a DFI NF4 LanParty board. But remember that the cables are a mess since I’m still working in it… it looks more cluttered and tighter than is actually so.

Random note #3: Regarding the black level of drive faces. I have three drives installed below. Top to bottom, there is the Plextor 716A, the Asus DVD-E616P3, and a Sony floppy drive. The Plextor and Sony were almost perfect matches, while the Asus was almost a shade of grey that was completely unacceptable. Once repainted, though, the Asus blends in nicely. Also, the colors would look more uniform if there were no flash... they look better in person than in this photo.

Random note #4: If you’re going to apply foam to the side panels, here is the cutout arrangement that I found was necessary to ensure easy assembly/removal of the panel in front of the motherboard (didn’t have enough to do the other side).

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:27 pm

Wow! That's a lot of fans! I would say that the best configuration for fan #5 is mounted in the same position as the duct should have been, using a Zalman FB123 of FB165. I would also bet that Fan #4 (and maybe Fan #2) is unnecessary, but you'll be able to tell better than I, because you can play with it

. If I were to duct anything, it would be to rebuild the VGA duct ... properly and in the right position. Use the VGA intake and feed it to the VGA card using fan #5. You could probably position it to brush some air over the northbridge too.

amplemind · Post by **amplemind** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:49 pm

I don't know anything about cooling or fans, but what I do know...

...those scissors next to all those wires makes me nervous!

Dirty-Harry · Post by **Dirty-Harry** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:19 pm

Dang... put a few more fans in there and it may start to take off.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:06 pm

I don't really see a question in the first post, so I'll just make my comments here. Are you certain that all those fans make a difference? If the sum total of them is still inaudible, then I suppose its still okay, but I am somewhat unconvinced that all of those fans are necessary.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:03 am

Well, they’re not all necessary, and they’re not all inaudible (though quiet). I suppose that I was in the mindset that many quiet fans moving a little air a piece would be a better solution than fewer, louder fans each moving more air. But again, these were moved around all yesterday, and this was just the configuration that I had before I went to bed.

So, Devonavar, you would recommend rebuilding the VGA duct? I’ll have to try blowing the fan in that direction again to see if the NB gets any warmer (it really likes the current configuration). My other concern with rebuilding that duct was depth. If I’m using a 25mm fan, then I believe that there is only 15-20mm of clearance for airflow behind it (maybe less with my foam on the panel). That just seemed a bit stifled, though I suppose it’s not a problem if there isn’t too much air passing through.

And for the CPU duct, you recommend removing fan #2 and just ducting the CPU fan to the outside world? If I can build it correctly, that sounds like the best solution. I’ll keep the top exhaust, the CPU fan, and look into building a new VGA duct. If I remove the front intake (#4), that would leave me with three fans in the upper section and the 38mm in the lower. Sound better?

scara · Post by **scara** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:17 am

Not sure what balance of noise<>heat ratio you're going for so this advice is based on 'the fewest fans at the lowest airflow whilst still maintaining acceptable temperatures.'

To eliminate two fans you could try reversing fan #3 and then ducting that straight out of slot #1 or #2. Or you could use #1 or #2 as exhaust and duct that onto the HS. The downside is that you'd be pulling case air through the HS rather than blowing room air onto it, but that shouldn't be a problem with an A64.

As has been said, fan #4 is probably unnecessary so close to #5 so remove that.
Most of the bottom half of fan #5 appears to be blocked by the floppy drive section. I would suggest repositioning it; either raising it straight up to be in-line with #4 or moving it toward the rear of the case and angling it upwards a little. This brings me on to the next removal....

It looks like it would be easy to suspend up to two hard drives (how many are you planning to use?) between slot #4 and a repositioned fan #5. This would leave only the PSU in the lower chamber, allowing you to remove fan #6.

This should leave you with four fans:

CPU fan ducted to exhaust
GPU fan
NB + HDD fan
PSU fan

Will that be any quieter than the six you have planned now? Probably not.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:34 am

If noise is your primary concern, I'd definitely recommend using only a single fan at the rear of the case. Exactly how you duct it, and which vent you use is up to you, but you should probably block off whichever vent you're not using to prevent a short-circuit in the airflow.

I think the low clearance above the "VGA" fan should be countered by more focussed airflow that you can achived by positioning the fan in the "duct" position.

I didn't even see fan #6 the first time! You can definitely remove that for a quiet build. Make sure you seal the exhaust vents surrounding the PSU to ensure that the PSU draws airflow across the drives in the lower bay.

I don't think it's necessary to go to the trouble of suspending the hard drives in the P180, the stock mounting system is good enough for almost any drive you can stick in there.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:21 am

I'm a big fan (no pun intended) of negative pressure airflow. Here's my $0.02.

Flip fan #2 around and have it exhaust air along with fan #1. With both fans pulling air up to and out of that corner of the board, you may be able to ditch the fan on your XP-120. If you picked up a Scythe Ninja, I'm sure you could run it passive with that airflow arrangement.

Remove fan #4, I don't see why you need this. Take out fan #5. I don't have any personal experience with the P180 VGA duct, but from looking at pictures, I have a few ideas. What you may try is installing the duct, but not using a fan. The pulling auction created by fans #1 and #2 should pull air into the case from the VGA duct and over the video card area. If anything, it should at least keep air from being recirculated in this area, which looks like it may be a problem with your current configuration, as you have more air intake than exhaust.

Another option you may want to consider is having a fan on the VGA duct, but having it exhaust warm air from the VGA area. Same idea as above, of trying to keep air constantly moving out and not recirculating/stagnating.

I don't think fan #6 is neccessary with a fan-cooled power supply - airflow created by the S12 should be more than enough to cool a couple 7,200RPM/10,000RPM disks. As Devonavar mentioned, just be sure to tape off the vent holes at the back of the case so air is pulled through the front and over the HDDs.

The ONLY time I would use fan #6 was if I had a fanless power supply, such as the Antec Phantom 350w, to pull air through the hard drive area, and blow air over the power supply and out the rear vents.

Good luck.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:46 pm

Well, I’ve built a dampened Compucase for the parents that is absolutely cool and silent: suspended Samsung HD, a couple of undervolted Nexus, S12 PS. But the P180 is my machine, and it will be often used for pretty heavy gaming. As such, it needs to allow a certain level of performance. So I’m aiming for “quiet” rather than “silent” with this build; I suppose that I should have specified this earlier. I plan on overclocking the CPU (3700+ San Diego), memory (TCCD), and graphics card (6800GT). As such, I don’t want to install a passive CPU heatsink But I believe that this level of performance is possible while still maintaining a quiet machine.

I threw together a few quick ducts this morning, and here’s the updated airflow situation:

I’ve removed the front intake (#4) and the rear fan (#2) from the previous shot, and I’ve built CPU and VGA intake ducts. Having put them in the case, I can see where this positive airflow might be a problem: the intake for the VGA has no defined path of exhaust. So, the warm air over the graphics/NB area will just be displaced when the cool air is drawn in. Eventually, the warm will rise out the top, but I’m not sure what kind of consequences would emerge from this airflow pattern. Thoughts?

And regarding fan #6, it’s really not making much noise at all (less than a YL while moving more air). And I plan on having two or three hard drives installed in the bottom area. One will probably be a T7K250, and the other(s) will either be the same model or the 250GB P120, depending on my impression of the Hitachi. So I’ll hold off on deciding this fan’s fate until the HDs arrive and are installed. If there are no dramatic temperature differences, I’ll block off the vents surrounding the PSU and let the Seasonic draw air past the HDs.

ereinion · Post by **ereinion** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:21 pm

Would be cool to see temp in the case Idiot, with you different configuration.

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:09 pm

Nice work on the quick, Idiot. Thanks for letting everyone else see what's what inside the P180.

I seriously favor the negative pressure style, and like you I'm more into performance than silence, but I think that with this case built up right, and a good A64 setup, the best of both are available.

My opinion is that fans #1 and #2 should both be exhaust, running mid-speed, and fan #4 should be intake, running low speed. Guaranteed more than enough airflow to deal with everything except a very hot 6800U or a seriously OC'd CPU.

That brings me to the dreaded VGA Duct. I've been toying around with 3dsMax and will shortly have a redesign for the duct that keeps the fan over the SLI slots, but without getting in the way of a large HS like the Ninja or a big video card. And the best best in the duct is an Evercool 80x80x15 fan. Now if I can get the design pressure molded of carbon fiber...

I'll have the lower drive cage full of Raptors and a Seasonic S12-500, and we'll see if I keep the 38mm fan in there or not. If not, that's 4 fans taking care of the case, plus a CPU fan and the PSU. Keep those pictures rolling in, it helps us all.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:38 am

On another forum, someone said that they got a normal 25mm thick fan to work with the duct by sticking the fan INSIDE the duct. How are you mounting it right now"

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:13 am

Shadowknight wrote:On another forum, someone said that they got a normal 25mm thick fan to work with the duct by sticking the fan INSIDE the duct. How are you mounting it right now"

Ask me Wednesday. My PSU, HSF, and Graphics card are all due Tuesday, and I'll know then. I might leave it off, or I might take my tools to it and adjust it.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:09 pm

Here’s the final pattern… unless I decide to flip the CPU fan to intake.

I tried to achieve the negative pressure that everyone raves about.

The case is definitely quiet, even with everything (including the Zalman on the VGA) running at 12V. Only the top exhaust can be clearly heard outside of the case, so I slowed that down to 5V. Everything is golden now, and I’m in the process of beginning my overclocks.

Oh, and the cables in the bottom area are a bit messy since I’m expecting another T7K250 to arrive Tuesday. I put my current Hitachi next to one of the Nidec Samsungs that I have, and it was only marginally louder in both seek and idle noise. In other cases (yay, double meaning!), the difference may be audible, but I haven’t heard the drive yet with the P180 all closed up. I hope the second Hitachi is just as good.

Also, that’s about the best I could do routing those IDE and floppy cables (since the actual distance between the motherboard connector and the drives is about six centimeters). Given the position of that giant cluster of cables, the front intake probably wouldn’t be too effective in any design that uses this method of cable management (that is, running them up that area of the case). Just something to keep in mind if you're considering this case.

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:03 pm

Nice

What are your thoughts on using a 80mm fan PSU like the new Smart Power 2.0s instead of a 120mm PSU. The Smartpower 2.0 would have a stright shot for the airflow, while airflow with a 120mm psu isn't so straight.

ultraboy · Post by **ultraboy** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:56 pm

idiot - in that set up it looks like fan#3 will be taking in hot air from PSU and fan#2. How is it practically?

moritz · Post by **moritz** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:38 am

Somewhere else someone commented that the air outside the case mixes with the ambient air so quickly that taking in exhausted air is usually not an issue, unless you're dealing with extremely cramped spaces where there isn't a whole lot of ambient air in the first place. Outside of that, the air from the exhaust #2 will rise upwards and shouldn't really affect the #3 intake very much. Of course by the same logic the air from the PSU exhaust will affect the intake - the upside being that by all acounts the air isn't very hot. I do think it might be a factor, though.

Hm. I wonder. Has anybody ever experimented with reversing the PSU fan, transforming it into an intake? That should work really well in the P180 from what I can see...

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:00 am

ultraboy wrote:idiot - in that set up it looks like fan#3 will be taking in hot air from PSU and fan#2. How is it practically?

As Moritz said, it might be a factor. However, the air exhausted from the PSU section just isn't very hot right now (though granted I've only checked during idle times). But if this is a problem, it can be easily solved by fabricating a simple divider between the exhaust and intake areas. After I get a better feel for my usual temperatures in this case, I might try that to see if it has any effect.

kadiir · Post by **kadiir** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:21 pm

Hi Idiot:

I'm a little confused (amateur that I am to case mods - all I've done is some cable mgmt & put in 2 SilenX fans for my Sonata 1). Also, I don't have the case, so I may just be missing something based on that.

So, is #2 the case-mounted fan?

How is #3 mounted? Is it just the on-card vidcard cooler or is there some kind of fan mount like Zalman's FB123?

How did you make those ducts and how are they installed (I see the Scotch tape on the pics, but what else is done)?

Thanks!

kad

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:35 am

#2 in the last picture is the CPU fan. If you refer to the very first picture in this thread, it will be listed as fan #3. It’s in the exact same position behind the duct, only flipped around to exhaust hot air.

I tried all sorts of ways to mount #3. At one point, I even had strings throughout the case in an effort to suspend it (which failed). In the end, I just mounted it directly to the duct I had made. The material I used for the duct was the plastic covers off old notebooks, so it was reasonably stiff. And since the fan and duct both sit directly on the steel beam below them, there isn’t too great a risk of separation. So there’s no special fan mount; it’s just sort of sitting there.

But it is very stable, and all the wires are routed out of its airflow path and away from its blades.

Again, the ducts are made from plastic, and taped together with vinyl electrical tape. Happily, the tape has retained its stickiness and rigidity in high heat situations, except when in contact with fan's sides (I used tape to hold the fan in the duct in order to create a better seal between it and the hole I had cut in the duct). So I may have to switch to a stronger tape for those areas. I'll try to take a picture if I remove the duct in the near future.

studentism · Post by **studentism** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:19 pm

This is a little off-topic, but I can't think of a better place to ask these questions. It looks like you're running a LANPARTY UT nF4-D with a ZM-NB47J on the NB chipset.

1) Is this correct?
2) What video card are you using?
3) Did you have any clearance problems with the ZM-NB47J and your video card?
4) What kind of temperatures are you getting on the NB chipset with your current fan setup? I've heard some horror stories with passive cooling on the nForce 4 motherboards.

idiot · Post by **idiot** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:12 pm

You are correct, and I’m running a 6800GT. Since I need to use both regular PCI slots, and since the Zalman cooler on my card would block one of those two if I moved it to the lower PCI-e slot, I had to mount it in the top one.

I definitely had clearance problems with the NB47J, and I ended up removing half of the fins.

I tried bending them, but it just didn’t work out well. Once removed, everything fit perfectly. Earlier today (and all last week), SmartGuardian was reporting ~50C idle for the chipset. However, I just moved some wires around when I installed my second hard drive, and the temperature is now reading ~60C (ironically, I moved the wires to clear the path from the front intake). I’ll have to wait until tomorrow before I can check out that problem (the motherboard main probably just fell into the airflow path when I moved the case). Anyway, these temperatures are with the cooling setup I have in the final picture (obviously), and I wouldn’t dream of running this setup without some sort of airflow around the modified NB47J.

This is, by the way, with the chipset voltage at 1.7-1.8V (stock is 1.5V, I believe?). The difference was about five degrees when I changed it, if I recall correctly. Increasing helped my memory stability (although I’m still working on that!)

Hope that helped!