Help! Temps up with P180

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Devonavar

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Help! Temps up with P180

Post by Flanno » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:59 am

Just transplanted my system to a new P180 last night, and while I am happy with the noise and cpu temps, the mobotemps and gpu temps worry me a bit. See below for summary. I can only assume the fact I had a mesh sidepanel in my old case helped it breath and the 120mm sidefan cooled my gpu's. It would seem the hot air in the P180 mobo area has nowhere to go.

Before Mobo temp 32 to 33 idle, GPU temps 42 idle
--------
Akasa Eclipse wide midi case with aluminium sidemesh panel
2x120mm Acousti dustproof intakes (front and side [with zalman bracket])
1x120mm Acousti dustproof outtake
3 channel fan controller

After Mobo temp 36 to 40 idle, GPU temps 46 to 50 idle
-----
Antec P180
Installed 3 Acoustifans in upped hdd bay, top blow hold, and rear outtake
Using stock Akasa 120x38mm fan turned to low to cool HDD's

2 things I am thinking about.

1. remove the top hdd bay - not using it anyway, and probably blocking airflow from the 120mm fan.

2. try the vga duct. have a thin 80 zalman fan which will fit. a bit noisy but I have a 5v resistor cable.

My Acoustifans by the way are 56cfm/24/9db jobs, so airflow is not lacking there.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Shadowknight
Posts: 1283
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:43 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Post by Shadowknight » Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:38 am

Try turning off the fan on the top blowhole. Some people get better temps as the air from the top hole is sucked through the heatsink on the way to the rear exhaust.

Sooty
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:15 am
Location: UK

Post by Sooty » Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:40 am

If you're using the VGA duct, you might want to read this thread:
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=24331

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:18 am

It sounds like the air is not being recycled nicely. Typically you want the air that comes off the cpu heatsink to exit the case without going past any other components.

If the top and back fan are not blowing in the same direction the air will go out the one and in the other. If you use both of those fans, make them both exhaust, and obviously run them as slowly as possible. I suggest that you make your cpu fan suck off the heatsink. If your heatsink doesn't cut it when the fan is sucking, get an XP/90. The XP/90 is ideal because it is small and efficient at the same time. On most boards a sucking fan will suck air from the graphics card area, which is what you want. The hot air that comes from the cpu should go straight out the exhaust/s.

I use a 80mm fan running at 5v sucking on an XP/90 and it works really well.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:41 am

Thx for all the good advice.

A few things :

1. I have both top blowhole fan and rear fan set to exhaust.

2. My cpu is sitting at 34-36 idle, and maxes at 52 under 100% load (superpi, sisoft burnin). Happy enough with that. Was same in last setup. Using a 92mm Acoustifan (only 29cfm) at 12v and its pretty quiet (22db) rather then the stock so called ultra low noise Vapo fan. Also have a papst (37cfm / 23db) I can try.

3. The heatsink I have is an Asetek Microchill and relys on a fan blowing upwards throught the heatsink. If I reverse the fan, then it wont cool down the heatsink and condense the liquid which has evaporated.

4. The only thing really contributing to the increased heat build up is obviously the gpu's. It is strange that the mobo temps and gpu temps have gone up almost exactly the same amount in the new case, and I just
realised when I had the Akasa originally without the side mesh, my temps were a little higher too.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:20 am

If I reverse the fan, then it wont cool down the heatsink and condense the liquid which has evaporated.
I don't like that heatsink much, it is too angle-sensitive. Blowing upwards is obviously the best direction for it, but I think a hot pocket of air will form below it, because it doesn't draw air from near the board, it draws air from near the side-panel. So it could happen that the air near the board is stagnant and gets hot.

Sorry, I just noticed that you have 2 GPU's. In that case you will need pay special attention to getting the air flowing there. I would suggest leaving a hole between the two cards by leaving a panel out, that would help to cool passive cards. You could also try to use the duct, but I don't think it would work too well.

I think hot air is collecting below the cpu and between the graphics cards. Try to leave a panel out to remove the hot air between the cards. Your cpu heatsink unfortunately leaves a hot pocket (I think, although perhaps this is not a big deal), replace it with a conventional heatsink (the XP/90 is good) and a sucking fan.

Obviously do what you can with that heatsink, but if it is limiting you then replace it.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:29 am

Actually, that heatsink probably isn't as bad as I make it out to be. So just try the open panel thingy.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:37 am

Thx for the tip.

I actually had 2 vented pci slots left over from 2 arctic coolers I had ages ago. And I fitted one below each of the gpu's. So I have 2 slots now more or less open. I will of course try the duct.

Another thing I am thinking is that I am using an Acoustifan 92mm fan which is only 29cfm's. Perhaps I should use the Vapochill fan, as the sides of the fan have slits in it, so perhaps they will suck up the hot air around the card.

Other cooler choices I have at hand are :

1. Arctic Freezer 64 - same mounting as vapochill though

2. Akasa Evo 120 - dumped that quickly as I found it did not spread out
the AS5 thermal paste very well for some reason. perhaps the mobo
rentention holes are positioned too high so the heatsink never sits flush
enough on the cpu. The fan blows towards the back of the case.

3. Stock FX57 cooler. enough said.

4. Coolermaster Hyper48 - too heavy, and stock fan stuck at 1500rpm due to mobo not support pwm.

By the way, I borrowed a friends XP90C and could not get it to fit. The aluminium heatsink attached to my chipset heatpipe on the back of the mobo, (near the i/o shield) prevent me from hooking the rear heatsink clips into the cpu rentention bracket.

Anyway - I will try removing the upper drive bay and turning the front fan down. According to the SPCR review, when the front fan was on full it accelerated the hot air getting to the cpu. I will also try the vga duct with the zalman 80mm 20mm fan I have running at 5v.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:23 am

What power supply are you using? (Correction: I see now, Enermax 600W) I am sure it is getting hot, and perhaps the air from the power supply is entering by those PCI slots. That would make a HUGE difference to the temps.

What I suggest is making the air flow in the opposite direction in that bottom chamber. If you have a fanned power supply, try to turn the fan around, or unplug it and tape over the case holes around there so that the bottom chamber fan can move air nicely through the power supply.

Whatever you do, ensure that enough air flows through the power supply. Don't take a chance. (Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for any mishap relating to an overheating power supply. This is a potentially hazardous thing to do.)

Perhaps this is getting a bit too exotic. Other people might have ideas. I am just trying to identify what is causing the high temps. Having the power supply at the bottom is something that has changed in the P180, so it could account somewhat for the higher temps.
Last edited by vertigo on Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:39 am

If you like the P180, it might be worth getting a fanless power supply so you can change the airflow direction in that bottom chamber as much as you like.

Remember, at this point you don't even know what impact the reversed direction air would have. It might only lower temps 1 degree or less. (I said it would make a huge difference, and it would if that hot air is going in there, but I don't know that it is, it's unknown at this point)

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:49 am

I have looked at a pic of an Enermax 600W power supply. It has two fans, and it probably needs them. I wouldn't mess around with it.

I also figure you'd need the capacity and connectors it has, so I would say do the best you can without worrying about that bottom chamber.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, choose the case that works better. If it turns out to not be the P180, then so be it.
Last edited by vertigo on Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:07 pm

<sanity check> You do have a rather hefty PC, considering. I mean, two 7800GTX's, FX-57, etc. Don't expect it to run supercool and superquiet. There's a reason people buy passive 6600's, you know...

Such a system is bound to need exotic measures to achieve idle temps below 40, etc. Obviously for more conventional builds things like the direction of the power supply airflow or whether you use a fan in the duct or not would hardly matter.</sanity check>

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:19 pm

Some success.

Removed the top hdd bay, turned all fans down to 7v. Been using PC for browsing, watching dvd's for last hour. Room isnt excactly roasting but not cold either. My cpu is idling nicely at 32 and mobo at 34. I cant believe it. GPU1 at 45, GPU2 at 47. Will try VGA duct now, just to see what happens.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:28 pm

The P180 seems to make a compromise. It offers better cpu, hard drive and power supply cooling, but the graphics card/s suffer slightly. In your case, the cards are so hungry that perhaps that compromise is less than worthwhile.
My cpu is idling nicely at 32 and mobo at 34.
It was obviously restricting the airflow. I kinda assumed you would have checked that the input wasn't restricted :). Also try without that 120mm fan, just to see. Since you have two exhausts, there should be enough suction.

Sooty
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:15 am
Location: UK

Post by Sooty » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:50 pm

O.T.

Flanno,

You tried an EVO120 on your Asus A8N-SLI Premium? There was enough space for the Premium’s heat pipe not to foul the EVO120’s heat pipes? It looks a close fit :? And did the EVO120 line up exactly with the P180’s rear case fan?

I’ve got an idea to use the same, but use the EVO120 passive, using a 120 x 38 rear case fan (block off the top fan) to get that much closer to the EVO, therefore leaving it running ‘semi-passive’. 8)

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:25 pm

The evo fits perfect. It comes nowhere near the mobos heatpipe as it is raised. You wont be able to use the vga duct though.

Some more news. I installed the vga duct with a zalman op1 80mm fan running at 5v using a resistor. Set 3 case fans to 7v with fan controller and bottom hdd fan at lowest setting. Then plaid the Fear demo at 1680x1050 with all settings maxed. Upon exiting cpu temp was around 49, and dropped within 30 seconds to 34. Mobo temp staying around 35. Video was 50 on gpu and 52 on gpu 2 according to the nvidia control panel but dropped back to 44 and 48. So the vga duct has worked for me, at least on 1 of my gpu's. My raptors are running at 29 according to dtemp and my WD 500gig drives which I know run hotter are only 32. Totally chuffed with this case now.

Plus the noise level is astonishingly low. I cant get over the fact I cant here my 4 hdd's. And I have a bunch of fans installed. This case is definitely a keeper. Bit annoyed about a minor scratch on one side. Friend has the same. But its under a desk so who cares.

Any ideas on how to cool the 2nd gpu better. Maybe get rid of the pci slot below it with the cutouts (one from an old arctic cooler) as its possible the psus hot air could be entering through this slot. what about one of those mini slot coolers that exhaust air ?

Thx to everyone for their help

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:02 am

The duct seems to have made a big difference, which means the hot air from the PSU doesn't affect it. I wouldn't worry about that anymore.

You say the one GPU does better than the other, and I think that is from the duct favouring the one. You can try closing the PCI slot gap of the cooler GPU, that should even it out (but I would leave it).

Your temps are really good, by the way. A GPU temp of 52C is really cool (considering you have 2x 7800GTX), I wouldn't worry about it at all. In fact, you have some headway to try for more silence if you like. Obviously that case is really good when the airflow is working. If it is quiet enough, I would leave it just as it is.

One thing I would try is seeing how the temps change when you disable that top fan and cover the hole, just for interest's sake.

One last thing, don't bother with those slot blowers, an open slot is better because they are noisy, if you have suction in the case air will enter there anyhow.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:10 am

Thanks. I will try blocking the top blowhole just to see.
What about reversing the top fan so it is blowing air into the case ?

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:28 am

I definitely wouldn't reverse the top fan. Think about it, those two fans would cancel each other, so the air in the rest of the case would be virtually still. Also, the hot air being exhausted would go straight back in again.

I said to try with that top fan off and blocked, but realise that I expect it to be worse. I just wanted to see how much worse it is. What will happen is the suction through the PCI slots and the duct will be minimal, because you will have one intake fan and one exhaust, matching each other. In other words, it should tell you how much impact the duct and PCI slot gap have. When you have both the exhausts, there is negative pressure, and the duct comes into play.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:25 pm

Yep....I tried the top fan blocked off, and my cpu temps actually went up 3 or 4 degrees idle, and my vga temps went up a couple too.

Back to the way it was now.

I have had my system on for the last 12 hours or so (just downloading) while fans all on 5v, and slowly my mobo temp has climbed back up to 40. CPU has stayed stable at 46. And GPU's are at 45 and 50. What has happened is the room has got gradually warmer during the day. My room is basically a heat collector. Ambient room temps have always affected my system dramatically. PSU rpm the same and my drives are between 36 and 40. A bit hotter then I am used to.

I just replayed the Fear demo again (everything on 5v), and after exiting the game my cpu was showing 50 degrees on Asus probe, and system temp was 42. GPU's went from 45 and 50 to 49 and 55. But after finishing the game, all the temps went back down within minutes, but motherboard stayed at 42. So it would seem there is heat getting trapped in there. I turned just the front fans to 12v and sure enough my board dropped back down to 40.

Is it possible over time that heat is being pulled in from the PSU exhaust in through the serrated pci slot that is positioned under gpu no. 2. If I close this off would it improve matters. Also my soundcard is in the pci slot below it (as it wont fit in the one below that over the cabling) so I am sure I am doing myself no favours here.

Also regarding cpu cooling, I am using an Acoustifan Dustproof 92mm fan for the cpu (29cfm/22db) at 12v and its plenty quiet for me. I wonder would it be worth trying the Papst fan I have. A little bit more powerful (36cfm) and 23db. Seems noisier at 12v all right, but probably won't here it in this case.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:27 pm

I meant to say in my last post my cpu is idling at 36, not 46.
Using cool and quiet by the way.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:04 am

What happens when you unplug the front intake fan? Do you have a fan in the duct? If so, try without it.

~El~Jefe~
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 2887
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: New York City zzzz
Contact:

Post by ~El~Jefe~ » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:01 am

If the guy has that much cash to blow, he really should have bought a water cooling setup for it before he hooked all of this up.

air has its limits and so does this case.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:22 am

Why would I want the hassle of a water cooling setup ? Thanks for the constructive input by the way.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:43 pm

air has its limits and so does this case.
You must not have seen the temps he is getting...

johnjv
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:10 am
Location: NC

Post by johnjv » Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:19 pm

My cpu averaged 37 to 40 idle in the Sonata, my hdd 30. The Sonata had a full acoustipack treatment, the P-180 has a sff kit in certain places + some stripped from the Sonata.
In the P-180 with the bottom area sealed and no 38mm, both 25mm fans on low and in their stock position the cpu stayed under 34 for two hours of emails and browsing (idling) the hdd went to 41 and stayed. Vga duct is not being used at all.
I taped off the top blowhole put the 38mm on the back on low, one 25 mm in the hdd box and one in front of the empty upper hdd cage. On low of course, ambient is 78F during the day inside.
HDD is now down to 33 and Athlon XP back to 37 +/- 3C.
___
I didn't want to use this many fans. Might have to upgrade my fans but I think the a-64 will run cooler even way overclocked.
I had to try out my new psu so I stuck my current pc into the P-180.

To the Enermax bashers, don't knock `em until you've witnessed one of the new EG---AX's in action. Unless you use 80% of your psu's power all the time 8)
The EG495AX I just got is inaudible compared to my old antec 380s. Even with the fan turned all the way up there isn't anything noticible except for the air movement and a very slight low frequency. It doesn't move very much air though. It hasn't made but barely warm at all exhaust yet. I suspect it is decently efficient because it isn't a space heater like my sonata is. (Couldn't find any good reviews on the 495ax).
Love the low noise S12's but they're a little low on the voltages too. I'm wanting a good 30% overclock on my Venice.

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:09 am

Made a couple small improvements. Replaced the Acoutifan on my cpu with a Papst...about 1 db louder, but pushes a bit more air...my cpu is idling at 32/33 now which is pretty decent for an FX57 and under Sisfofts cd burnin gets to around 49 max. Also managed to move Soundcard to bottom pci slot (cabling was stopping me before). Bottom gpu can now breath a bit better, and a little adjusting of the duct and my gpu temps are idling at 42 and 45....pretty good. System temps still a little high but only climbs to around 38 now. Overall pretty happy.

Out of curiosity - would I have been better sticking with the stock fans. I am using 3 acoutsiproduct dustproofs in the main chamber. They are rated at 56cfm/24.9db, and around 20db (probably not though)/ 41cfm at 7v. I run them at 7v usually. Would the Antec tricools be quieter on middle setting ?

johnjv
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:10 am
Location: NC

Post by johnjv » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:16 am

P180: Fan Characteristics
Fan Setting CFM SPL
Antec 120 x 25mm TriCool
H 75 39 dBA/1m
M 47 31 dBA/1m
L 28 20 dBA/1m
Antec 120 x 38mm TriCool
H 64 30 dBA/1m
M 55 27 dBA/1m
L 39 23 dBA/1m

That's from page 5 of the second review.
E me if you would care to trade those Acoustifans for my used for two days tri cools :wink: My new cpu won't be as hot as your FX is

Flanno
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Ireland

Post by Flanno » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:41 am

Interesting.

From page 6 of the P180 manual (EU edition)

120x120x25.4mm fan
High
2000rpm 30db 79cfm

Medium
1600rpm 28db 56cfm

Low
1200rpm 25db 39cfm

120x120x38mm fan
High
1500 rpm 60cfm 28db

Medium
1200rpm 48cfm 23db

Low
900rpm 36cfm 17db

Freelancer77
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:10 pm

Post by Freelancer77 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:34 am

Flanno, a few comments.

1. If you used AS5 to mount the heatsink, it takes several heat cycles and up to 200 hours to completely "cure" and offer it's best heat transfer. That might be a part of what you experienced.

2. You are using the VGA duct, and that's nice, considering many 6800 cards couldn't fit with it. I'm glad to hear at least one maker's 7800GTX will accomodate the duct. You are using the same fan (15mm wide Zalman 80) that I am in the duct, so I can say that it aims more direct air at the upper SLI slot, probably accounting for your variance in GPU temp.

3. If you have room among the GPU slots, I'd consider getting a Zalman VF700-CU for each. They cool better than stock HSFs and slightly aid airflow in the vicinity as well, at least the top one would help the heatpipes cooling the NB.

4. The temps you most recently reported are actually quite pleasant given the gear you have. Speaking of which, what CPU are you running?

5. You got an awful lot of advice pushing you to make this or that change. Take it all with a grain of salt (and yes, that goes for me too), read and learn from multiple sites like this one, and use your best judgement. It usually works out when you're patient.

Post Reply