Looking for sound deadening panels

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

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deadbolt
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Looking for sound deadening panels

Post by deadbolt » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:19 pm

I am planning a new Quad Core system and wanted to start with a case, power supply and fans. Planning on an Antec P182SE case with Nexus 120mm fans, lots of acoustic foam and generous application of those heavy peel and stick sound deadening panels. Leaning toward a Sythe Ninja HS.

On all my previous builds I had been using automotive sound deadening panels available at Lordco in Vancouver but they have gone up 400% in price in just over a year. These are a peel and stick similar to Dynamat but without the foil on the topside. They were 20$C per box of 10, but now are asking over 80$.

Any good alternatives or grin and pay the increases? I have considered products like Rooffix, Dynamat or Hushmat but don't know of any local suppliers.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Bluefront
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Post by Bluefront » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:28 pm

That Dynamat-type stuff is all very similar. It's virtually the same as "Roofer's tape". You can usually find the stuff at a good hardware store that sells roof shingles. In the USA I find it at Home Depot.....comes in rolls about 8" wide. Cheap.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:50 am

Dynamat is bitumen (asphalt) based, but Dynamat Extreme is butyl rubber and doesn't have the smell that standard Dynamat and other asphalt-based sound deadening mats do.

However, the smell of the asphalt stuff usually fades within a week, less if you can apply it then let it sit in the sun for a few hours to evaporate some of the VOCs. I used a little on the inside of my door panels in my Escape and I didn't notice any smell after applied, even when it's hot.

I used what Bluefront called "roofing tape". Just a generic version I found at Home Depot. It comes in a 8"x12' roll for about $6-8. There are a few name brands however that will make it easier to find. Just as for 'Peel & Seal' or it's equivalent and choose. The heavier (and thicker) the better.

Word of advice, don't try to use scissors to cut, you'll just make a mess. Straight-knife is the way to go.

deadbolt
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Post by deadbolt » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:40 pm

The sound dampening sheets I normally use are PF 365 made by Pro Form http://proformproducts.com/ These are very heavy bituminous panels designed for cars. All of my PCs are very heavy from liberal application.. ok, obsessive compulsive application of this stuff.

There are many interestng roofing products at our local Revy (Vancouver). One of them is similar to Dynamat with an aluminum foil over a membrane 1mm thick. The brand is called Resisto http://www.resisto.ca Their Red Zone product looks and feels like it might be effective and is a 1mm thick membrane. These sound absorbing sheets keep getting more and more expensive due to boom cars but the good news is that the prices on roofing products shouldn't be affected by boomers.

Another product I use in all of my PCs is acoustic foam that looks like a foam egg-crate for a mattress but is gray and fairly dense. This stuff has given me the most dramatic noise reduction. I am looking for a supplier of this in BC, I can't remember where I got my last 4x8 sheet.

On a side note, the filter material I use for my PCs air intakes is a small woven panel designed to be stuffed into the registers of a forced air heating systems. They are washable so you don't have to throw them away. These filters claim to be electrostatic and while I wonder about that claim, I can say with certainty that they work well. 12 pack for a couple bucks at Home Depot. I may add a nylon stocking to the mix to see if it is even more effective.

Please feel free to chime in with your favorite damping material or other tidbits.

Bluefront
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Post by Bluefront » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:55 am

Ok....I'll add this about Dynamat-type products, including "roofer's tape". Once applied to almost anything, it won't come off without bending or scratching whatever it's stuck to. Maybe if you soaked a panel in gasoline the stuff would melt.....never tried it.

However....If you apply a layer of duct tape first, then the roofer's tape, you might be able to remove everything without too much trouble. So it pays to be careful with this sort of product. For dampening panel vibrations, this stuff works well. Combining it with another layer of acoustic foam.....even better. :D

Joseph42
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Acoustic Products

Post by Joseph42 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:12 am

I used this in my last computer and was very satisfied.

http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustipack.asp

buzzlightyear
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Post by buzzlightyear » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:56 am

I used roofing tape on my Sonata 1 case. It costed about $8. It could look better, but you can't beat the price.

deadbolt
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Which begs the question............

Post by deadbolt » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:14 pm

Has SPCR ever done a comparative review of sound dampening materials.

This would be an interesting to perform. I envision a test of 4 PCs with identical base system components and cases and cloned HDDs, then mod each case with sound dampening material in a way that might be typical of a DIY isntall while keeping a reference box unmodded. SPCR could even farm out the mods to us interested parties.

The front of the case would be isolated from the back and the airflow in and out could be measured, temps captured and noise and .wav files are recorded.

Airflow might be guaged by using case fans with a broken or disabled (deliberately) motor and reading the rpm pulse or with a Dwyer windflow meter.

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Post by JoeWPgh » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:56 pm

buzzlightyear wrote:I used roofing tape on my Sonata 1 case. It costed about $8. It could look better, but you can't beat the price.
You could always apply a layer of self stick floor tiles over it. Extra dampening in designer patterns! :)

Adding the tiles over the butyl doesn't really do anything to 'dampen' the case. At that point you're adding mass to block sound.

But seriously, put some open cell foam over that, and you've isolated the internal noise about as much as possible.

Blacktree
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Post by Blacktree » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:33 pm

I've been modding computers to reduce noise for almost 10 years. During that time, I've tried several methods to see which is most effective. That experience has taught me this:

Foam rubber, as used in computer cases, is only thick enough to effectively absorb the higher-pitch noise. If you have low-noise components inside your computer, then chances are you don't have much (if any) high-pitch noise in there. So the foam is a waste.

And if there are components inside your computer generating high-pitched noise, replacing them with quieter components will be more effective than stuffing your case with foam. You can only fit so much foam rubber in a computer case. And the foam can only absorb so much noise. The rest will escape to your ears.

Earlier on, I'd put foam rubber in a case "just because". But after realizing the folly of it, I stopped doing that. Now I focus on vibration, resonation, and rattles.

When trying to silence the case frame and case panels, mass-loading and structural stiffening are both equally effective. They both accomplish the goal of preventing vibration/resonation of the panels. Acoustic foam doesn't have the mass nor the stiffness to accomplish that. While some people may prefer to use "boutique" products like Dynamat or AcoustiPack, using pieces of heavy carpeting, flooring tiles, or even a thin sheet of plywood will be just as effective. The laws of physics don't care how much you paid for the stuff. :P

For eliminating rattles, duct tape has been my best ally. Whenever two pieces are rattling against each other, simply apply enough layers of duct tape to fill the gap, and the rattle is gone. And if the gap is too large to be filled by a couple layers of duct tape (which doesn't happen very often), I then break out the weather strip tape.

deadbolt
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Post by deadbolt » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:44 pm

You hit one of my pet peeves. Tape.... I would never recommend someone use tape on their system. Ever! Given enough time duct tape turns into a gooey mess. Only removable with strong solvents. Masking tape petrifies with no known solvent, and scotch tape needs to be chiseled off with a razor then bathed in a chemical cocktail. Tape looks as unprofessional as it is. Self adhesive panels also would make a mess but I consider them to be permanent.

I think you are right about the mass. The foam I use is very effective at killing noise. Fan, HDD, and airflow whooshing noise are diminished. The PCs already weigh 2 or 3 times their normal weight due to many sheets of bituminous material similar to Dynamat. Without the foam there is still lots of noise.. The addition of the foam make a dramatic difference. Not all of the PCs I have are made with silent components but they have been made to be very quiet through liberal use of sound deadening panels and acoustic foam and undervolting the fans.

I think I'll either spring for the same sheets as I used the last few PCs or get a load of roofing products. I've considered bituminous felt panels which do add mass and are absorbent but I'm not sure where I'd find them or how I'd attach them while looking good.

vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:19 am

My Evercase had 6mm thick glass used for a window... that seemed to deaden the case pretty good. Not to mention adding allot of weight to an already heavy computer.

Besides that, i had some 5-6mm thick heavy rubber compound stuff that is normally used by shoemakers to add hight to the soles of sneakers and such. I had that plastered on the top, back and bottom and behind the motherboard tray. The 3rd thing i had was a couple heavy pieces of 2" thick foam placed between my cdrom drives, and some much thinner stuff on the bottom of the case.

In my p180 i have yet to do much in the way of adding damping, im going to try to source more of that sole'lift stuff.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:24 pm

One thing I didn't see recommended (surprisingly, though I may have missed it) was the use of self-adhesive vinyl floor tiles for mass-loading case panels. They are sold at plenty of DIY home improvements stores, though I'm sure you can find really heavy ones at a carpet & tile shop.

The only trick is that they really need to go on a clean flat panel. So you put them on first. And since most of them are pretty ugly compared to what the inside of a computer should look like, you'll probably want to cover them up with something. If you really want to go full bore, you can put the "Peel & Seal" or Dynamat or Acoustipack or whatever you want on top. I've found that I really like using black automotive headliner material. It's a small layer of open-cell foam with a felt material on top. Looks good and does help to take out some of the harshness of reflected high frequency noise.

There have been several posts on it and I've used it in all of my builds since I found out about it. The best part is they are dirt cheap, usually less than a $1 per tile.

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Post by JoeWPgh » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:34 pm

jhhoffma wrote:One thing I didn't see recommended (surprisingly, though I may have missed it) was the use of self-adhesive vinyl floor tiles for mass-loading case panels. They are sold at plenty of DIY home improvements stores, though I'm sure you can find really heavy ones at a carpet & tile shop.

The only trick is that they really need to go on a clean flat panel. So you put them on first. And since most of them are pretty ugly compared to what the inside of a computer should look like, you'll probably want to cover them up with something. If you really want to go full bore, you can put the "Peel & Seal" or Dynamat or Acoustipack or whatever you want on top. I've found that I really like using black automotive headliner material. It's a small layer of open-cell foam with a felt material on top. Looks good and does help to take out some of the harshness of reflected high frequency noise.

There have been several posts on it and I've used it in all of my builds since I found out about it. The best part is they are dirt cheap, usually less than a $1 per tile.
I have to disagree to a point. For dampening a piece of sheet metal, I think you'll get better results from a butyl product. Butyl is completely malleable with no inherent resonant frequency. It reduces the metal's ability to resonate at a frequency. It quite literally dampens it.
It's currently unavailable (sorry) but I've been using this:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007O ... 34-1012937 $10 + shipping has been enough for 4 cases with leftover.
Floor tiles do something a little different. They are more rigid, and thus susceptible to sympathetic resonance. What they do in effect is create a thicker 'drumhead'. This is still effective from a practical sense. Rather than 'dampen' the sheet metal, they lower it's resonant frequency. It takes more energy to create a low pitch than a high one, so 'dampening' is effectively achieved. They add significant mass, which is also to the good.

From my subjective experience, floor tiles alone do make a computer quieter, but they do this by making it's inherent sound lower in pitch. To my ears, there's still a low pitched whir. Not unacceptable by any means, but still vaguely audible. A butyl/floor tile build up noticeably reduces this low pitched sound and is quieter than butyl alone, do to the added mass of the floor tiles. As an unexpected bonus, the floor tiles adhere better to the foil backing of the butyl than to the case's sheet metal. I have no idea why, but it's been true in every case.

Put some open cell foam on top of that, and it's very very quiet. Many computer parts come packed on bumpy, open cell foam, which works great and is 'free'.

deadbolt
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Post by deadbolt » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:29 pm

Blacktree wrote: Foam rubber, as used in computer cases, is only thick enough to effectively absorb the higher-pitch noise.
I should have added that the foam I am using is at least 2" thick.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:44 am

JoeWPgh,

If I could afford all the Dynamat Extreme or whatever butyl product you choose, I would buy it. My statement was all about price/performance. I realize that butyl does work a little better (mainly due to it's density and elasticity), but it's also very expensive. I can get mostly the same result using floor tiles. I don't believe that any of the vibrational energy inside of a computer case would be strong enough to induce sympathetic vibrations of an adhered floor tile.

All of these heavy dampening products use mass-loading to do 99% of their work. As long as the material doesn't vibrate back (like hanging a lead weight), the application will work. For that matter if price were no object (along with simplicity) I could go ahead and isolate each panel with Sorbothane, but open cell foam works just fine for me.

No disrespect, but what exactly are we trying to accomplish here? Elimination of vibration or elimination of vibrational noise? If you want to eliminate vibration, ditch your hard drive and all fans. If you want to eliminate vibrational noise, you use mass-loading and isolation.

Your point about adhering better to butyl than to case panels is interesting, I've never tried it that way, but since the panels are usually enough for me and they are usually butt-ugly, I always cover them with something, when I can.

Tell you what, I think I'm getting a little long in the tooth here and that we're arguing semantics. I'll leave you with this little word puzzle, though: think about what the word "dampen" really means, and how it was derived. I always hated that word along with misuse of the word "silent" (I need to make my computer more silent...) because it really encompasses two different methods of noise-reduction (in computers anyway): mass-loading and isolation.

Oh, and by the by, the orignal eDead V.1 is asphalt. V.1SE has more butyl in it along with the asphalt and V.1^2 uses mostly butyl rubber core. The link you submitted for Amazon is for the original asphalt v.1, which is why it's so cheap.

colin2
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Post by colin2 » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:29 pm

Another vote for roofer's tape.

Seems to me there are 3 possible effects.

1. ( the main one) is adding mass to a panel, so that a given amount of vibrational energy makes it vibrate less; relatedly "constrained layer damping" as it's sometimes called (bonding a panel with one kind of resonance to a panel with another) changes the characteristics of a panel; I guess it means a little more of the energy gets dissipated as heat. Tile should work; any big HW store will have 1/4" plywood or mdf panels; big panels can also be braced. You can even get thin slate tiles ... with a little work, you could have the world's first stone PC case!

2. trying to soak up noise producted by components inside the case. I agree that's unlikely to be very effective.

3. changing the resonant character of the inside of the case. I think there's an effect here that's distinct from (2); in any case you'd really need to test.

And fundamentally, yeah, the key is going after the noise and vibration at the source.

My impression of the Antec P182SE, having fiddled with one just the other day at Fry's, is that it's already damped pretty thoroughly. No harm playing with the foam, but I'd experiment before doing anything hard to reverse, as adding it might impede airflow.

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Post by JoeWPgh » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:45 pm

jhhoffma wrote:JoeWPgh,
Oh, and by the by, the orignal eDead V.1 is asphalt. V.1SE has more butyl in it along with the asphalt and V.1^2 uses mostly butyl rubber core. The link you submitted for Amazon is for the original asphalt v.1, which is why it's so cheap.
I got the link from my account history at amazon, and I can assure you that the product I received is butyl. I use butyl tape in my work, and this is the unquestionably the same stuff. I'm familiar with asphalt as well, and it's definitely not asphalt. I'm quite satisfied with it for both price and performance. As for the pricey boutique versions of essentially the same product? I'm with you all the way.

[EDIT] You may have a point about the link. I bought this several months ago and don't remember what I paid for it. $10 doesn't sound right to me. I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall that it was about $20 + shipping. Still, that's around $5 per case. Not quite as cheap as floor tiles, but not very far off either.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:50 am

JoeWPgh wrote:[EDIT] You may have a point about the link. I bought this several months ago and don't remember what I paid for it. $10 doesn't sound right to me. I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall that it was about $20 + shipping. Still, that's around $5 per case. Not quite as cheap as floor tiles, but not very far off either.
Yeah, I'm familiar with both types as well, never used them in any of my stuff, but I know of them. The price was unbelievably low, which is what drew my eye. The model number gives it away though. V110 is asphalt (v.1).

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Post by jessekopelman » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:48 pm

More on the eDead . . . You can apparently buy this stuff directly from Elemental Designs for the same prices you see on Amazon, but you can order by the specific square footage instead of as pre-sized rolls. Also, the direct from ED $1/sqft offering is the butyl-based v1^2. I wonder if the Amazon listing is just a typo, as you'd think the discontinued v1 would be clearance priced . . . Still, why take the chance when you can order exact amounts of the newer stuff direct from ED? Anyway, this stuff looks like a good value to me. They don't carry Peel-n-Seal at my local Lowes and McMaster wants almost $19 for a 6"X25' roll -- that's $1.50 sqft vs. $1 for eDead v1^2 or $1.60 for the thicker v1SE^2.

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:08 am

If you can get V1^2 for $1/ft, grab it and run, cause you're essentially stealing. Like you said, that is as cheap or cheaper than most asphalt based stuff.

OTH, if you also have a Home Depot or something they'll have a knock off material that's equivalent, you don't need "Peel & Seal" just the same type of product. I can't believe that Lowe's wouldn't have flashing tape of some kind.

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Post by jessekopelman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:22 pm

jhhoffma wrote: OTH, if you also have a Home Depot or something they'll have a knock off material that's equivalent, you don't need "Peel & Seal" just the same type of product. I can't believe that Lowe's wouldn't have flashing tape of some kind.
I'm sure you're right, but that would involve human interaction -- something I generally prefer to avoid. Also, I like the certainty of buying a specific product rather than something that I'm pretty sure is the right thing. To each his own . . .

djkest
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Post by djkest » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:44 pm

E-dead also sells the thicker, 60 mil butyl rubber stuff on amazon, $16 for 10 square feet. I'm pretty interested in this, with 10 square feet I could probably "do" 2 midtowers and a SFF too. Looks nearly identical to dynamat extreme, but maybe thicker.

That roofing stuff sounds decent, but since it's asphault based I'm thinking it's mostly just added mass, which is okay but not necessarily the best solution. I like the looks of this stuff too, the shiney (tin?) outer layer will dress up the inside of a case, and maybe conduct a little heat too.

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Post by jessekopelman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:49 pm

djkest wrote:E-dead also sells the thicker, 60 mil butyl rubber stuff on amazon, $16 for 10 square feet. I'm pretty interested in this, with 10 square feet I could probably "do" 2 midtowers and a SFF too. Looks nearly identical to dynamat extreme, but maybe thicker.
Go directly to Elemental Designs. They will sell you any of the eDead products in any quantity you want, not just preset sizes like Amazon. Also, if you want thick they have new eDead v1UE that is 120 mil thick! I'm thinking the thinnest v1^2 is actually the best way to go. Considering the stuff is non-removable, it may be best to go with multiple layers as needed. The way it's priced, 2 layers of v1^2 is less expensive than 1 layer of v1SE^2 and 3 layers of v1^2 is less expensive than 1 layer of v1UE. Of course if you're sure you need a thicker coat than 45 mil, going with a single coat of the thicker versions is less work.

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Post by jessekopelman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:05 pm

One thing I've just discovered about eDead is that whether you buy it through Amazon or directly from Elemental Designs, It gets shipped from Elemental designs and their minimum shipping charge is $10! Probably not an issue for their usual customer who is ordering this for a car and needs 30+ sqft, but kind of a bummer for the PC application where you need well under 10 sqft. Basically, the shipping doubles the price for us. I guess I'll check out the roofer's tape at the local stores before I commit.

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Post by djkest » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:03 pm

Nice thing about the eDead, when you order directly from them you can get exactly how much you need. I plan on calculating the amount I need and ordering JUST that much. They recommend for maximum effectiveness do a layer of the butyl rubber and then a layer of the closed-cell foam on top for the high frequency stuff. Also I talked to a guy that works there and he said for smaller orders you might be able to get a little break on the shipping. So it's not *always* $10.

I plan on ordering some soon, just gotta get a little more funds.

ronrem
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Re: Which begs the question............

Post by ronrem » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:02 pm

deadbolt wrote:Has SPCR ever done a comparative review of sound dampening materials.

This would be an interesting to perform. I envision a test of 4 PCs with identical base system components and cases and cloned HDDs, then mod each case with sound dampening material in a way that might be typical of a DIY isntall while keeping a reference box unmodded. SPCR could even farm out the mods to us interested parties.

The front of the case would be isolated from the back and the airflow in and out could be measured, temps captured and noise and .wav files are recorded.

Airflow might be gauged by using case fans with a broken or disabled (deliberately) motor and reading the rpm pulse or with a Dwyer windflow meter.
Nice Idea...I'm for SPCR tackling this type thing that Anand and the Mainstream/Gamer sites don't do and can't even grasp.

Basically......Density- mass is what prevents sound passing through. Thin steel,0.8 gauge...won't kill much noise. 2" of concrete will do much better.
Without getting difficult---certain types of floor tile have good density at a good price. Particle board is good -may be easier to apply to the outside.

Another factor is bounce or echo. A soft-absorbent surface or non-parallellor rough texture means a sound wave won't bounce about until it can escape. Scraps of indoor-outdoor carpet are one cheap + easy option. A textured closed cell foam---such as a backpacker sleeping pad- can be a good echo killer.

You'd want to decide what weight is okay-and what sort of room you have.
Ceramic tiles glued with Polyurethane constructon adhesive-and a layer of ioutdoor type carpet would be the best silencing per $. Carpet the outside with thick scrap carpet and you have done about all you can....if you have the room..like how it looks-etc.

Rich folks without spare time should buy the kits and share the wealth.

Lensman
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Re: Which begs the question............

Post by Lensman » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:24 am

ronrem wrote:Carpet the outside with thick scrap carpet and you have done about all you can....if you have the room..like how it looks-etc.
Wait! Someone could do a project where they make their computer match their room carpet. This could be like those kitchen appliances with panels that match your cabinets!

Hey, another project would be an ATX desk where your desk had standard mounting points!

kayrin
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Post by kayrin » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:23 pm

I have been reading alot in the forum, and also on the web. I have some questions, and hope the experts out there can light me up.

Does butyl rubber generally perform better than vinyl, when using it as damping material?

If that's true, will this combo work great?
mcmaster:
8609K13 butyl rubber sheet
5692T49 some acoustical foam

How will it compare to eDead v1^2 with foam attached on top?

jhhoffma
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Post by jhhoffma » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:06 am

Butyl is usually more dense than vinyl and more pliable as well. The thickness of the materials is going to be key. The difference in density is not so great to offset more than a couple mm of thickness. If you can afford the butyl, go for it. You most likely would not notice a huge amount of difference between that and vinyl, but it's the best at mass-loading without concerning price.

Again, the most important thing when dampening a case is to remove or isolate as many sources of vibration as possible. Without doing that, it doesn't matter how much dampening you apply.

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