Alert: Team MacOSX shows life
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
AND they did an excellent job of stealing the MacOS. To quote a pissed off Gates, 'That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC, I want Mac on the PC. (That is Billy boy arguing in favor of overlapping, not tiled, windows for Microsoft Windows.) And yet another favorite of mine, 'Hey Steve, just because you broke into Xerox's house before I did and took the TV doesn't mean I can't go in later and take the stereo.' (Billy boy in response to Jobs complaining about how much Windows looks like the Mac.) Off topic! Who said that?! Fold on!All the technical arguments for or against the platform aside, one has to admit that Gates and Co., really did a brilliant job of marketing.
Not denying any of that, nor defending Bill Gates. Like I said he is a master at this stuff and seemingly has gotten away with it. I guess my point is that things are the way they are. I suppose if our positions were reversed, I would also be passionately upset, but then again, the computer is a tool and I just use the one that fits me best. I enjoy the ease of tweaking my machine, the availabilyt of wide program choices, and the inexpensive parts.Macaholic wrote:AND they did an excellent job of stealing the MacOS. To quote a pissed off Gates, 'That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC, I want Mac on the PC. (That is Billy boy arguing in favor of overlapping, not tiled, windows for Microsoft Windows.) And yet another favorite of mine, 'Hey Steve, just because you broke into Xerox's house before I did and took the TV doesn't mean I can't go in later and take the stereo.' (Billy boy in response to Jobs complaining about how much Windows looks like the Mac.) Off topic! Who said that?! Fold on!All the technical arguments for or against the platform aside, one has to admit that Gates and Co., really did a brilliant job of marketing.
Of course, if I just had 1 tenth the money that Gates, Ellison, or Jobs has, I would be even happier.
As is public knowledge, I used to be a "Mac person" myself. What ultimately drove me away was Apple's stubborness in NOT incorporating some things Windows did well. I do not deny that Microsoft "stole" nearly every worthwhile feature from the Mac, but Microsoft then took those ideas and extended them. "Embrace and extend". Apple, on the other hand, seemed unwilling to look outside their own walls for good ideas. This was some 7 years ago, and if Apple hadn't changed, they would be nothing more than a footnote in the history books, along with DEC, Compaq, KayPro, and others. Adapt or die.
When I "lost my religion," I became an "agnostic," willing and able to see the various platforms with an open mind. I would have no problem owning a Mac, as I currently run both Windows and Linux. Ironically, Macaholic is also an agnostic, pounding the pulpit about how wonderful Macs are, while using PC's for folding.
My point? I don't have ANY idea.
David
When I "lost my religion," I became an "agnostic," willing and able to see the various platforms with an open mind. I would have no problem owning a Mac, as I currently run both Windows and Linux. Ironically, Macaholic is also an agnostic, pounding the pulpit about how wonderful Macs are, while using PC's for folding.
My point? I don't have ANY idea.
David
Actually, I used to own a Mac also. Several things drove me away. First a lack of affordable software that was released on a timely basis. Yes, I could find something to do almost anything I wanted, but with the PC, I had many more choices and usually at better prices. Also, most games were released for the PC first and if they came out for the Mac, were released much later. Only one of our computer stores (a major chain) even sold Mac stuff and it was maybe 10 percent of their stock.
The second major thing was the absolute lack of upgradeability. I could not change video cards. I could upgrade memory, but not much. The third thing was lack of what I would call useful error codes. I found this true in the school district I worked for as well. Many times, the machines would mysteriously freeze up or simply give a generic error code. It was actually easier for me to work through the Windows errors than the Mac.
The third thing was that I was forced to use pretty much proprietary peripherals. Not all printers were Mac compatible. In fact, most weren't, so I was almost forced into Apple printers and such at higher prices.
Those were the big 3 for me and I decided to stay with PC's and have had no desire to switch as I am able to do all I want to do right now.
Now if I was wanting to do high end drafting/graphics work, I might reconsider, but the way things stand now, why bother?
The second major thing was the absolute lack of upgradeability. I could not change video cards. I could upgrade memory, but not much. The third thing was lack of what I would call useful error codes. I found this true in the school district I worked for as well. Many times, the machines would mysteriously freeze up or simply give a generic error code. It was actually easier for me to work through the Windows errors than the Mac.
The third thing was that I was forced to use pretty much proprietary peripherals. Not all printers were Mac compatible. In fact, most weren't, so I was almost forced into Apple printers and such at higher prices.
Those were the big 3 for me and I decided to stay with PC's and have had no desire to switch as I am able to do all I want to do right now.
Now if I was wanting to do high end drafting/graphics work, I might reconsider, but the way things stand now, why bother?
No you wouldn't -- there is no such thing as drafting on the MAC -- 2d or 3d. Windows is pretty much it.wgragg wrote:Now if I was wanting to do high end drafting/graphics work, I might reconsider, but the way things stand now, why bother?
As for graphics, MAC's still reign supreme there, but every year PC's make up ground.
Dave
Well considering that drafting is out of the question for me in any case (I cannot see in 3d due to amblyopia), I guess that show how much I know about it!dasman wrote:No you wouldn't -- there is no such thing as drafting on the MAC -- 2d or 3d. Windows is pretty much it.wgragg wrote:Now if I was wanting to do high end drafting/graphics work, I might reconsider, but the way things stand now, why bother?
As for graphics, MAC's still reign supreme there, but every year PC's make up ground.
Dave
I call BS. Drafting is alive and well on the Mac. Read up.
http://www.apple.com/education/hed/acad ... hitecture/
http://www.apple.com/education/hed/acad ... hitecture/
Quoting anything from apple.com as a factual resource is like watching The Flintstones to learn about dinosaurs.NoahJ wrote:I call BS. Drafting is alive and well on the Mac. Read up.
There is some 3D/visualization marketed towards Mac's, such as Form-Z and Maya, but in terms of "drafting" its all PC. (or nearly all) ArchiCAD is about the only Mac compatible drafting software that I can think of, and its market penetration is tiny.
The real powerhouses of the CAD market, Autodesk and Bentley, don't even produce a Mac version of their software anymore.
If PC's are 98% or the general market, I'd bet that they are 99.5% of the CAD/CAM market. And considering that inconnectivity between remote participants is becoming a more and more important element, its unlikely that many people would elect now to switch and become the one non-compatible link in the chain. Even within the all-PC world of architecture I've seen firms dropped from contention for projects due to their use of incompatible software.
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Bluebeetle69
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what about Vectorworks Rusty?
according to this website:
http://www.architosh.com/news/2004-01/2 ... desk.phtml
vectorworks has about a quarter of the users of Autocad, at around 400,000.
and is the No 2 player
i don't know much about CAD just what I read.
Also they seem to think one of the other firms is about to develop CAD for OSX
according to this website:
http://www.architosh.com/news/2004-01/2 ... desk.phtml
vectorworks has about a quarter of the users of Autocad, at around 400,000.
and is the No 2 player
i don't know much about CAD just what I read.
Also they seem to think one of the other firms is about to develop CAD for OSX
Beetle, are you sure that's the right link? There's nothing there about Vectorworks. Vectorworks' site advertises that they now have 160,000 worldwide users, about 2.5% of the 6 million users that AutoCAD has.
I've heard about that petition before, and while having AutoCAD and Microstation (the two biggest products from AutoDesk and Bentley) on the Mac would be a good thing, I think that Architosh may be being a bit self-important. Their petition has 2800 signatures, if all 2800 of those people would buy the Mac version from either AutoDesk or Bentley (firms very rarely buy both) that would mean about $3 million and 1400 new users.
Considering that Autodesk does nearly a billion dollars in sales annually, and has 6 million AutoCAD users worldwide....those petition numbers are puny. It would cost more to port the software than they would ever make back in sales. (Which is the whole reason both companies stopped making Mac software)
I've heard about that petition before, and while having AutoCAD and Microstation (the two biggest products from AutoDesk and Bentley) on the Mac would be a good thing, I think that Architosh may be being a bit self-important. Their petition has 2800 signatures, if all 2800 of those people would buy the Mac version from either AutoDesk or Bentley (firms very rarely buy both) that would mean about $3 million and 1400 new users.
Considering that Autodesk does nearly a billion dollars in sales annually, and has 6 million AutoCAD users worldwide....those petition numbers are puny. It would cost more to port the software than they would ever make back in sales. (Which is the whole reason both companies stopped making Mac software)
Boy, what did I get started?
Rusty, I think you have hit the crux of the problem between Windows and Mac platforms. It is now simple economics and market share. Considering the cost of developing, testing, marketing and supporting a product, it is no wonder that now many applications are developed for Windows first and then later, if ever for the Mac. The money is simply not there, unless you are developing something that only the Mac can excel at.
I used to be an avid Everquest player. I think it was out 2 years for Windows before they ported it over. I am sure they wanted to make sure it was a success before they took the risk. It would be interesting to see if they have reouped their deelopment costs for the Mac version or if the rest of the players are subsidizing it.
It is really strange what the market, or an enterprixing person can do to what has the potential of being a superior product technologically.
Rusty, I think you have hit the crux of the problem between Windows and Mac platforms. It is now simple economics and market share. Considering the cost of developing, testing, marketing and supporting a product, it is no wonder that now many applications are developed for Windows first and then later, if ever for the Mac. The money is simply not there, unless you are developing something that only the Mac can excel at.
I used to be an avid Everquest player. I think it was out 2 years for Windows before they ported it over. I am sure they wanted to make sure it was a success before they took the risk. It would be interesting to see if they have reouped their deelopment costs for the Mac version or if the rest of the players are subsidizing it.
It is really strange what the market, or an enterprixing person can do to what has the potential of being a superior product technologically.
NoahJ, I've read up -- still the same. Drafting is dead on the MAC.
Rusty is absolutely correct, AutoDesk & Bentley are the main players when it comes to production drafting with Arris a player in the architectural arena. ProEngineer is a major mechanical player. To my knowledge, none produce MAC versions and likely won't because the marketshare isn't there (I know, catch-22).
All of those programs in that link are the equivalent of Corel's WordPerfect or Sun's StarOffice compared to MS Office when it comes to marketshare.
Dave
Rusty is absolutely correct, AutoDesk & Bentley are the main players when it comes to production drafting with Arris a player in the architectural arena. ProEngineer is a major mechanical player. To my knowledge, none produce MAC versions and likely won't because the marketshare isn't there (I know, catch-22).
All of those programs in that link are the equivalent of Corel's WordPerfect or Sun's StarOffice compared to MS Office when it comes to marketshare.
Dave
Well, you would be wrong. The only thing spinning out of control is your output! The slippery slope, downward spiral! 
Here. Let me just pull up the current stats and ..... Oh, look at that! Still set to pass EOC before you! Imagine that! 
Fold on!
Here. Let me just pull up the current stats and ..... Oh, look at that! Still set to pass EOC before you! Imagine that! Fold on!22 EOC Folding@Home Team 7,554 04.8.04, 2am / 13 Days
23 SilentPCReview Folding@Home 1,313 04.6.04, 1am / 11 Days
Yesterday it was 15 days 'till our overtake of EOC, 10 days 'till being overtaken by OSX, and since these numbers are based on the average daily output over the past 7 days, and since our output has increased during this period, I would say it's going to be REAL close.
Taking the average of the last 4 days, Mac OSX is outproducing SPCR 25874 to 25624 points per day, or just 250 PPD. At that rate, OSX will not overtake SPCR for another 59.5 days, and we will overtake EOC in 11 days, based on their 4 day average.
We have outproduced Team MacOSX so far today, 16933 to 16732.
I will make an educated guess that ARM will throw in enough extra points over the weekend to make those numbers look even more favorable to SPCR. If I were a betting man, and the bet was who will overtake EOC first, I would be trying to increase my bet. If I were Team MacOSX, I would be looking for Phase B.
Seriously, it's "too close to call" at this point, and anything can happen, but I like our chances. I am "cautiously optimistic".
David
Taking the average of the last 4 days, Mac OSX is outproducing SPCR 25874 to 25624 points per day, or just 250 PPD. At that rate, OSX will not overtake SPCR for another 59.5 days, and we will overtake EOC in 11 days, based on their 4 day average.
We have outproduced Team MacOSX so far today, 16933 to 16732.
I will make an educated guess that ARM will throw in enough extra points over the weekend to make those numbers look even more favorable to SPCR. If I were a betting man, and the bet was who will overtake EOC first, I would be trying to increase my bet. If I were Team MacOSX, I would be looking for Phase B.
Seriously, it's "too close to call" at this point, and anything can happen, but I like our chances. I am "cautiously optimistic".
David
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NeilBlanchard
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Arris was originally on Unix.dasman wrote:NoahJ, I've read up -- still the same. Drafting is dead on the MAC.
Rusty is absolutely correct, AutoDesk & Bentley are the main players when it comes to production drafting with Arris a player in the architectural arena. ProEngineer is a major mechanical player. To my knowledge, none produce MAC versions and likely won't because the marketshare isn't there (I know, catch-22).
All of those programs in that link are the equivalent of Corel's WordPerfect or Sun's StarOffice compared to MS Office when it comes to marketshare.
Dave
CADD for Mac: Microstation, ArchiCAD, VectorWorks (fomerly MiniCAD), BOA Research. These all make PC versions, too, but they were originally for Mac.
Second largest architectural CADD? DataCAD! (http://www.datacad.com DataCAD 11 is what I use!
Other architectural CAD: Revit (now owned by Autodesk -- their top-of-the-line product!), also from Autodesk: Architectural Desktop, Architrion, BOA Research, SketchUp (from @Last Software)
AutoCAD for Mac was a joke -- they ported it, but it was a major kludge. They dropped it ages ago. BTW, AutoCAD 2005 just came out last month -- the next version may be Architectural Desktop renamed to -- AutoCAD. So, yet another new file format that has to be exported to previous versions of AutoCAD -- ha! What kind of a "standard" has to be exported to all the older versions?
Neil,
I don't want to turn this into a drafting thread but ARRIS is an example that also makes my point (albeit using a different OS). Arris was originally Unix and is now predominantly PC because Sun boxes cost too much.
Also, it makes sense that many of the drafting packages used to be on MAC's -- originally, it was difficult to do any type of graphics on a PC. As someone who toiled using ACAD 2.x (I believe I started at 2.1) on a 8088 with a 9" monochrome screen, back then I lusted for a MAC graphics. Also, I'm pretty sure Apples marketshare used to be more significant than it is now. As PC capabilities went up and $$ down, most packages went to PC and other OS support has dwindled.
For what it's worth, my statement drafting on the mac is dead was intended to be relative. I was sure that some software existed, just that drafting is predominantly PC based. I think the only areas MAC still dominates is graphic arts and maybe video/music?
As for ACAD, we should have out copies of 2005 shortly, I'm told it's a pretty significant upgrade -- we'll see. As for exporting to older versions -- while not ideal, understandable -- to introduce new features I would think changing file format would be somewhat par for the course. I'd be more upset if the new version had trouble reading the old. If I remember correctly, even Word has changed file formats through the years and required exporting to older versions.
Dave
PS Sorry to leave DataCAD out of the mix, most of the architectural firms we work with use either ACAD, ARRIS or uStn.
I don't want to turn this into a drafting thread but ARRIS is an example that also makes my point (albeit using a different OS). Arris was originally Unix and is now predominantly PC because Sun boxes cost too much.
Also, it makes sense that many of the drafting packages used to be on MAC's -- originally, it was difficult to do any type of graphics on a PC. As someone who toiled using ACAD 2.x (I believe I started at 2.1) on a 8088 with a 9" monochrome screen, back then I lusted for a MAC graphics. Also, I'm pretty sure Apples marketshare used to be more significant than it is now. As PC capabilities went up and $$ down, most packages went to PC and other OS support has dwindled.
For what it's worth, my statement drafting on the mac is dead was intended to be relative. I was sure that some software existed, just that drafting is predominantly PC based. I think the only areas MAC still dominates is graphic arts and maybe video/music?
As for ACAD, we should have out copies of 2005 shortly, I'm told it's a pretty significant upgrade -- we'll see. As for exporting to older versions -- while not ideal, understandable -- to introduce new features I would think changing file format would be somewhat par for the course. I'd be more upset if the new version had trouble reading the old. If I remember correctly, even Word has changed file formats through the years and required exporting to older versions.
Dave
PS Sorry to leave DataCAD out of the mix, most of the architectural firms we work with use either ACAD, ARRIS or uStn.
I just added 2 more boxes, so that should add over 100 ppd. That is about all I can add at this point. I still hold that it is a great accomplishment that we can keep the Mac guys hopping with having less than half their active folders! You average points per user and I lay odds that we outperform them. In other words, we be doing more with less?
EOC Stats is now showing what I have been saying for a few days - that we are overtaking EOC faster than Team MacOSX is, and this is still with the low point total from the 19th (when we got all those 160 pointers) messing up our daily average. Yes, MacOSX took a hit from those too, but not to the extent that we did.
Over the past 5 days, Team MacOSX is outproducing us by just 63 points per day.
Great job overyone!
David
Over the past 5 days, Team MacOSX is outproducing us by just 63 points per day.
Great job overyone!
David
