AMD Upgrade advice

[dasman]

I have two tired old P3's serving as admin machines that I'm looking to upgrade. In the past, we've always used hand-me-down cad machines for admin boxes. However, we're waiting on upgrading our cad systems until the whole Prescott, PCI Express bus, new PSU form factor to sort itself out (then we're going to ARM ourselves).

In the meantime, I'm looking for cheap (AMD) ways of upgrading these machines. I've never done AMD or paid much attention to them before, so I'm not really sure what the whole Barton, Duron, T'bred, Palomino, etc thing is (and I don't really want to spend alot of time figuring it out )

Please, what type of mobo/CPU/memory upgrade would you guys suggest (realizing that I'd like decent F@H performance as a bonus )


Thanks,

Dave

PS The machines will run W2K

[Rusty075]

It's real simple:

Get a low-end Thoroughbred like this: XP2000 @ Newegg.com and combine it with a socket A motherboard. For your purposes just about any motherboard will do. Here's a decent Gigabyte, also @ Newegg That particularone has onboard video, audio, and LAN, so it both simplifies and reduces the price of the whole thing.

Now you could put together a higher performing combo, (and probably cheaper too, I only shopped for about 30 seconds) but for about $100 you've got the core of a system that is lightyears ahead of what you've got. Building out the rest of the machine (HDD, RAM, maybe PSU and case, depending on what you've got) will probably cost you $250-300 more.


EDIT: almost forgot RAM: 512megs of PC2100. Get a namebrand like Kingston, Crucial, Micron, etc. RAM is one of the places where going too cheap can bite you in the rear.


Hope that helps.

Btw...I'll be visiting Erie next weekend

[haysdb]

I will make a pitch for my favorite combo:

• Biostar M7NCG 400 nForce2 motherboard
• Barton 2500+
• 256MB Crucial PC2700 (times 2 for 512MB dual channel)
• Speeze FalconRock heatsink

This will run $200 or very slightly less with a $25 power supply plus shipping.

Go into the BIOS and set FSB to 200, bump vcore by .025v, set memory to "automatic", and away you go at 3200+ speed. Memory will not be overclocked, but will run at DDR 333.

Caveats: this is a micro-ATX board, which you may or may not want. If you go to a full size motherboard, you have a lot more options.

There's nothing special about my choice of Crucial memory. Corsair, Kingston, etc. would obviously work fine also.

David

[ColdFlame]

I think there are some missing pieces of info that I need to suggest something:
1. What is your budget per PC?
2. What is the intended usage for these machines (what is admin?)
3. Do you plan to overclock?
4. Do you feel dventurous?

In any case, here is some raw info for you to chew on.

CPU:
Your options are:
1. Barton - top of the line AthlonXP CPU, runs on 166 and 200 Mhz bus. Has 512 KB L2 cache. The fastest AthlonXP.
2. T'bred. Predecessor of a Barton. Has 256 KB L2 cache. Overclocks to a lower maximum speed than a Barton (I think typically 2.2 Ghz?)
3. Duron - T'bred with most of his L2 cache disabled, which results in some poor performance (though not as poor as Celeron). My Duron 1.6 runs at 2.1.
4. Palomino - predecessor to a T'bred. Does not overclock. I don't think you can buy it anymore.
5. Thorton - Barton with half of it's L2 cache disabled, effectively a T'bred. Runs at 133 and 166 Mhz bus. My value champ at the moment. Folding performance almost at Barton level, o/c very well (2.3-2.4 Ghz).

Motherboard:
1. For top performance you want to get a motherboard that supports 200 (400) FSB, such as NVidia Nforce2. I'm not a fan of VIA boards lately even though I have 2.
2. If you are on the budget you can get a motherboard with top speed of 166 (333) FSB, that would be something like KT333 or KT400. I can attest that it folds as well as on a 200 FSB NForce

RAM:
1. DDR 2700 costs the same as DDR2100 so don't get DDR 2100
2. DDR 3200 is more expensive IMHO than DDR 2700

Overall, if you get a CPU that runs at 200 FSB you need a mobo that runs at 200 FSB and a stick of DDR 3200, which is expensive.

If you are on the budget then you might get a 166 FSB CPU, 166 FSB mobo and DDR 2700. DDR 2700 can be had on sale for something like $40-50 per 512 MB stick.

Now, if you are feeling adventurous and you have Fry's nearby then you need to wait 'till they have a sale on a CPU+mobo combo, CPU being a 2000+ or 2200+. The combo would run something like $60-80 and you'll get a Thorton and a crappy mobo (made by ECS). Then you drop a wire in a CPU socket to make the mobo think your CPU needs 1.8v and then run that Thorton on 166 FSB instead of 133 FSB. This way you can get a 2600+ minimum and 2.4 GHz at a maximum. This is what I did with my Thorton (except for mobo, I had a KT400 mobo with vcore limitations) and it works like a charm.

Finally, this is my advice:
Combo 1:
1. Some NForce mobo, like Shuttle AN35N ($60)
2. Thorton 2200+ (1.8 GHz) ($60)
3. 512 MB of DDR 2700 ($50)

Set this thing to run at 175 MHz FSB and cool well. You get 2.35 Ghz of AMD power

Combo 2:
1. Same mobo ($60?)
2. Barton 2500+ ($80)
3. You might be fine with DDR 2700 but you really need DDR 3200 to be safe (lots $$$)

Run this thing at 200 MHz FSB and cool well. You get 3200+ performance. Proven by many people including David here.

[haysdb]

nForce2 boards can run memory at some ratio of the FSB, so you can, for example, run the cpu at 200MHz (400MHz DDR) and the memory at 166 (DDR333, aka PC2700).

Where do you get 512MB of DDR2700 for $50?

PC3200 (DDR400) memory is not that much more expensive than PC2700. Crucial PC3200 costs $6 more per 256MB than PC2700 (53.99 vs 47.99). Premium PC3200 can cost up to $80 per 256MB, but that's overkill for most people.

David

[ColdFlame]

I think running your RAM async from CPU does not give you much. In any case, F@H does not seem to benefit from 200 FSB compared to 166.

$50 for 512 of DDR 2700 is the going price nowadays. Just this week CompUSA had a stick for $40 on sale/after rebate. My 1 GB of DDR 2100 cost me $50 from Staples.

I think last stick I got was from BestBuy, Kingston ValueRam 2700, works at CAS2.5 at 400 MHz (that is 512 MB DDR 2700, $50 after rebate).

[haysdb]

$50 for 512 of DDR 2700 is the going price nowadays. Just this week CompUSA had a stick for $40 on sale/after rebate.

That's interesting. At www.compusa.com, the least expensive 512MB module of PC2700 memory is $94.62 for Kingston.

David

[ColdFlame]

Don't tell me you never read www.fatwallet.com It is all there, in plain English

[haysdb]

At newegg, a 2600+ Thoroughbred costs just $1 less than a 2600+ Barton. The T'bred is clocked at 2.08 vs 1.90 for the Barton, so at stock speeds, I would pick the T'bred. However, I am going out on a limb and asserting that the two cpu's should overclock to similar maximum frequencies, so the extra $1 for the Barton seems like money well spent to me. The price difference used to be a lot more than $1.

David

[lm]

In fact running cpu and mem async will most likely hurt performance because it increases delays in accessing memory.

[unregistered]

What is the wattage of your PSU? That was a problem for me when I was upgrading at that stage.

[haysdb]

In fact running cpu and mem async will most likely hurt performance because it increases delays in accessing memory.

In theory, yes, but how much are we talking about? 1%? 2%? How much is Folding impacted, vs. some sort of artificial benchmark? Honest questions, but I would have to be convinced that it's something to worry about.

David

[dasman]

Wow! I guess I pushed a button with this question -- never got so much so quickly before

To answer some questions:
1. No particular budget, want as cost effective a solution as possible.
2. Admin -- word, excel, quickbooks, typical administrative type stuff. The most intensive application will be F@H.
3. OC'ing -- our standing policy regarding OC'ing is no, the machines ned to be as reliable as possible. Doesn't mean that policy can't be changed as long as reliability isn't an issue (we want to plug the stuff in and work, no trial and error, fiddling with settings to get the maximum possible speed out of the system -- I do that at home, but not at the office )
4. Adventurous -- not since wife and kids, my rock climbing, whitewater, extreme sports days are behind me ) Seriously, I'm not looking to start dropping wires on the board or soldering or anthing like that -- like I said, plug and go is the best solution.

Reading things over, it looks like the Barton 2500 is somewhat of a consensus pick -- what is it equivalent to in the P4 world -- a [email protected] and overclocked a [email protected]? For a $75 CPU??? Or do the numbers not translate? (sidenote: they really have a market for 2500, 2600, 2700, 2800 etc? and all of them priced a few dollars apart?)

Regarding ram -- some have 1 stick while others 2 sticks (dual channel). How big a deal performance-wise is this and do all mobo/cpu combos support dual channel? Also, never having done the DDR route (I currently have all RDRAM, except for these two P3's) -- what is the difference between CAS 3, CAS2.5, etc?

I'm going to put these into existing mid-tower ATX boxes with existing power supplies, HD's, vid cards, etc. I remember back with Athlon's first came out they were very particular about PSU's -- is this still the case? I haven't opened up the boxes yet to see what these are, but they are P3 systems so I assume they don't have the same connectors that PSU's of today have (like that square 4 pin molex for a P4 board). Should I be looking at upgrading the PSU's as well (I'm pretty sure I'm in the 250-300W range)?

Beside HSF, any difference between retail and OEM for CPU's? (ie., warranty, etc).

Aside from the Shuttle AN35N (sorry David, no micro-ATX biostar), any specific mobo recommendations (although, if I have to change the PSU, maybe changing to a micro-ATX case/PSU isn't a bad idea -- how do they handle the heat/noise?)

Thanks for all the help, looks like I hit on a popular topic

Dave


PS Rusty, why are you coming to Erie? (looking out the window, blizzard right now)

[sthayashi]

The 2500 is supposed to be equivalent to a P4 @ 2.5GHz. In reality, I think the P4 outperforms it slightly, but IIRC, at a much higher price point. Yes, it's shocking how much cheaper a mid-range AMD processor is compared to an Intel one. I think AMDs popularity stems largely from that difference.

Regarding RAM, Dual-Channel is supposed to be better, so it's better to get two sticks. Not all motherboards support dual channel, so look around first. In truth, dual channel performance benefits are marginal at best (I recall seeing an article that basically showed that the dual channel really wasn't that much better).

The difference between CAS3, CAS2.5, etc. is about $40 or more and maybe 2-5 fps on 3D shooters. Seriously, you're better off saving your money on the cheapest name brand memory you can find.

Concerning Warranty, I wrote this up not too long ago.

Upgradiing the PSU? Maybe. It depends on what you have exactly. I don't trust no-name brands for anything, but if you have a good PSU at 300W, then you have plenty for your system unless you have a ton of hard drives or other peripherals.

Can't recommend a motherboard since it's been a few years since I've gotten an AMD motherboard. I like Asus products, though I've been burned by the bad Via chipset from years gone by. nVidia's chipset seems pretty solid though.

[Rusty075]

Reading things over, it looks like the Barton 2500 is somewhat of a consensus pick -- what is it equivalent to in the P4 world -- a [email protected] and overclocked a [email protected]?

It's probably pretty close to a [email protected], depending on which benchmarks you want to believe in.

For a $75 CPU???

Yup, about 1/2 the price of the equivalent Intel.

Regarding ram -- some have 1 stick while others 2 sticks (dual channel). How big a deal performance-wise is this and do all mobo/cpu combos support dual channel? Also, never having done the DDR route (I currently have all RDRAM, except for these two P3's) -- what is the difference between CAS 3, CAS2.5, etc?

For what you're doing, the differences will be trivial. 1 or 2% shouldn't be enough of a performace shift to justify paying much more for.

remember back with Athlon's first came out they were very particular about PSU's -- is this still the case? I haven't opened up the boxes yet to see what these are, but they are P3 systems so I assume they don't have the same connectors that PSU's of today have (like that square 4 pin molex for a P4 board). Should I be looking at upgrading the PSU's as well (I'm pretty sure I'm in the 250-300W range)?

If you've got 250-300W's, you should be OK.

Beside HSF, any difference between retail and OEM for CPU's? (ie., warranty, etc).

Yes. Retail has a 3 year warranty, while OEM has whatever warranty the reseller gives you. (But in practice there's really little difference. If there was a CPU problem that they would consider a warranty issue, it would show up really quick.)

any specific mobo recommendations?

You'll get about a dozem conflicting posts on this one, with everyone recommending their personal fav's. But in reality as long as you stick to a major brand I'd just let the feature/price be the deciding factor.

PS Rusty, why are you coming to Erie? (looking out the window, blizzard right now)

I'm visiting for my sister's wedding on Saturday. It had better stop snowing by then.

[haysdb]

If you will not be overclocking, I recommend a Thoroughbred over a Barton. I will bet money that a 2600+ T'bred will outfold a 2600+ Barton at stock speeds. The Barton gets it's speed rating based on the large cache, but in my experience, this is a bit of a stretch, especially for folding. The big advantage of a Barton is that the 2500+ can be overclocked so easily (so you end up with clock speed AND the larger cache), but if you don't OC, obviously that advantage is mute. I'd go for the higher clocked T'bred.

Athlons don't need the same kind of memory bandwidth that P4's do, but if you are doing 512MB of memory, I see no reason NOT to do it as 2x256MB and take advantage of even a very small speed increase.

Folding doesn't stress RAM very much in my experience, so I would just buy basic name-brand CAS3 memory (Crucial, Kingston value, etc.)

Only the latest VIA KT880 supports dual channel memory. All nForce boards do. If you will not be overclocking, it probably doesn't make any difference whether you go nForce or VIA.

A micro-ATX board will fit in any case that a full size ATX board will, but it's also true that there's no real advantage of a m-ATX board either. As noted above, any name-brand board will serve your needs. I have owned Abit, Asus, Biostar, Gigabyte, MSI, and probably others, and about the only reason to choose one over the other is features (e.g. passive NorthBridge).

Unless you specifically need a high-end video card, such as if you need DVI out, then I like integrated video. It has gotten quite "good enough" in my opinion that separate AGP cards are often unnecessary.

David

[dasman]

Thanks everyone -- mid yesterday I ordered the following from NewEgg (saved about $10 total over my normal source - ZipZoomFly).

$50 -- Biostar M7NCD an ATX board -- M7NCG wasn't in stock @ newegg but was in stock at zipzoomfly -- I ended up deciding to stick with ATX and reuse as many components from existing machines as possible).
$75 -- Barton 2500+ while I don't plan on OCing, I'm going to try it on one machine short term and see how stable it is (if I can't run at FSB 200 with stock settings, then I'm going to drop back)
$43 -- 256MB stick of DDR400 Corsair Valueram -- machines currently have only 256MB so I don't see any reason to go higher right now. Board doesn't support dual channel so one stick is all I need. Went DDR400 more for future use when I retire these systems than anything else.
$9 -- Speeze FalconRock heatsink -- $9, nuff said.

That puts me at $177 for a single machine (I'm doing two systems), needless to say, I'm pretty happy about the $$ Should have the stuff Friday and installed on Saturday. I'll let you know how I make out.


Dave


PS Rusty, about 8"-12" of snow outside of town, about 4" in-town (closer to the lake and out of the snow belt). Project light flurries the rest of the week changing to rain for the weekend. Don't know about you, but I'd rather have the snow than cold rain for a wedding.

If you get a chance, go to the new indoor waterpark (supposed to be the biggest this side of the Mississippi and getting larger this summer). If you stay in a Scott Enterprises hotel you shouldn't have a problem getting in, they get first dibs on weekends... Splash Lagoon

[sthayashi]

Sweet Jesus, you guys are closer to Cleveland than you are to Pittsburgh. Glad you were able to get a decent computer for dirt cheap. Enjoy your new machine.

[dasman]

Closer to Cleveland and Buffalo than Pittsburgh -- but the Steelers are still #1 in the area (Bills a distant 3rd, even though we're in the Bills "market" and get forcefed Bills games ).

Actually, winter aside, this is probably one of the best places I've ever lived (admittedly, not that many places -- Pittsburgh, Lancaster PA, Wilmington DE area, Greensboro NC area). Inexpensive, no traffic or commute, plenty of stuff to do and Pitt, Buff, Cleve are all less than 2hrs if we want to go to the flats, the strip, etc.) Great place to raise kids too...

sthayashi -- are you a m'upere?

Dave "chillin' in the former mistake by the lake"

[haysdb]

dasman,

Good sound choices IMO. The questionmark will be that motherboard. No question it will be a good board at stock voltage, but I question whether you will be able to coax 200 MHz out of a Barton with it, since feedback at newegg indicates this board has no vcore adjustment. My three 2500+ Bartons have each needed small boosts in vcore to be stable at 200MHz FSB. But there's no reason at all you can't run at 198 or 195 or 190 or whatever proves to be stable at stock voltage. Your choices aren't limited to 166 or 200, and with DDR400 memory, you can run your memory at 1:1 and not worry about it.

David

[dasman]

David,

Saw the no VCore feedback -- to me that is good, since it won't tempt me and I'm not supposed to be overclocking anyway


Dave

[sthayashi]

sthayashi -- are you a m'upere?

I's thinkin' 'bout it. Your link reminded me that I haven't been to a waterpark in ages, so I checked out the site and saw the directions. 110 miles away!! Up until today, I thought that Erie, PA was a lot closer to Pittsburgh than that. Just shows that I haven't really studied a map of Eastern Pennsyvania carefully.

[dasman]

110mi = 1hr 40 min -- I remember sitting in traffic to get home for longer than that

Obviously, if you didn't know we were 110mi, then you're not a m'upere. I get "I'mupere (from Pittsburgh) for the weekend, doing anything?" all summer long


Dave


EDIT -- spelling

[ColdFlame]

Yes seems to be no voltage adjustments on this board: http://forums.amdmb.com/showthread.php? ... did=301915

However you can always drop a wire into the socket. I did that and my board now produces 1.8v instead of 1.6v.

[dasman]

CF, voltage adjustments don't really bother me -- I'm not supposed to OC at the office anyway so now I won't be tempted to "push" it


Dave


PS Rusty -- ended up with 16.1" snow in town in 24hrs. Supposedly, it's now done and should start to melt off tomorrow

[Rusty075]

PS Rusty -- ended up with 16.1" snow in town in 24hrs. Supposedly, it's now done and should start to melt off tomorrow

Beautiful. Nothing says "Welcome to Spring!" like 16" of snow. It's been snowing all day today here....should make for an interesting drive.

[dasman]

Beautiful. Nothing says "Welcome to Spring!" like 16" of snow. It's been snowing all day today here....should make for an interesting drive.

Just got back, been out most of the day -- the roads are now completely clear (aside from a couple of side roads). Driving shouldn't be a problem once you get here.

Suns out too

Dave

[frosty]

Hey great read here.

Hey if I upgrade my 1700 I think a t-bred KT333 it is, to a 2400 or 2500 would I notice the change or just be overheating it?

[dasman]

Hey great read here.

Hey if I upgrade my 1700 I think a t-bred KT333 it is, to a 2400 or 2500 would I notice the change or just be overheating it?

FWIW, in the intel world, I usually figure my upgrade has to increase my speed at least 2x (preferably 3x) before an upgrade is worth the cash -- for a general use machine. I've found that most of the people in the office don't really notice a jump unless it's significant.

Now, if you're running very processor intensive stuff, that's completely different. Some of the engineering models we run take a couple of hours -- if I can get a 30% jump on those machines, I'll usually upgrade them.

Dave

[dasman]

quick question from the AMD newbie -- the little round black foam pads on the CPU -- I assume those stay?

As for the Speeze cooler -- I see they have a thermal pad on them (I usually don't like those). Should I remove the pad for some AS5 or is the thermal pad ok for AMD CPU's?

Thanks,

Dave