We've been passed

Buddabing · Post by **Buddabing** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:25 pm

The MacOS guys passed us today. (Sunday)

Looks like we need to step up our efforts to counter their "Phase 2".

Ramp! Borg! Run 24/7!

Buddabing

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:32 pm

I have a feeling the capacity we have is not being used to its greatest possible efficiency. Threads like this are a testament to that. I think we should have an announcement or a sticky, explaining to people how to optimize their folding systems, and urging them to DO it.

We also need more people though--why don't we try to make use of the publicity found on TechTV?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:38 pm

I'm just using the latest console version with all default settings. If default settings ARE NOT CORRECT (P4? Athlon? 386sx-25?) then someone needs to define what the correct settings are.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:43 pm

ok, another folding team did it for us..
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/p ... hp?t=96729

Which flags should I use?
AMD Single processor rig: -advmethods -forceSSE -verbosity 9
Intel Single processor rig: -advmethods -forceasm -verbosity 9
AMD Multiprocessor rig: -local -advmethods -forceSSE -verbosity 9
Intel MP/HT rig: -local -advmethods -forceasm -verbosity 9

-advmethods: "Request to be assigned any new Cores or work units." In effect, you get single gromacs 95% of the
time. You will still get the occasional Tinker. Intel machines will still get double gromacs but AMD machines will not.

-forceSSE: "On machines with an AMD processor, Core_78 gives priority to 3DNow over SSE -- this overrides that."

-forceasm: "Instruct the core to use SSE/3DNow assembly instructions if possible, even if it has previously
made the determination that the machine may not be handling this well."

-verbosity 9: Sets the level of output detail that is written to the log file

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:44 pm

wumpus wrote:I'm just using the latest console version with all default settings. If default settings ARE NOT CORRECT (P4? Athlon? 386sx-25?) then someone needs to define what the correct settings are.

The correct settings for a recent Athlon XP should be -advmethods -forceSSE. Since doing this, my output has increased considerably.

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:07 pm

OK, I will write something up. For now I will add a couple of notes here:

-verbosity 9 - this will write the most detail to the log file, which in general is a good thing, but the additional messages can cause FAH LogStats to not display PPD and PPW correctly. This is a bug in LogStats, but until it's fixed, you have to choose which is more important to you, the detailed log, or LogStats PPD and PPW calculations.

-forceasm and -forcesse are not mutually exclusive, and mean different things, so BOTH can be specified on AMD systems.

David

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:12 pm

haysdb wrote:-forceasm and -forcesse are not mutually exclusive, and mean different things, so BOTH can be specified on AMD systems.

I thought that -forceasm wasn't necessary if -forcesse was used, since by definition, assembly optimizations are a prerequisite for 3DNow!, SSE, or ANY kind of SIMD architectures. If your system is capable of SIMD in ANY form, assembly optimizations are surely implicit.

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:53 pm

Assembly optimizations are always used, AFAIK, except when folding instability has been encountered, in which case assembly language optimizations can get disabled. In order to force FAH to ALWAYS use the assembly optimizations, even in the face of instability, you can use -forceasm. IMO, under the circumstances where -forceasm provides any benefit, the horse has already left the barn.

David

unregistered · Post by **unregistered** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:32 am

Every folder that applies the tags properly, in effect doubles their PPW, almost like adding another team member.

Shad0 · Post by **Shad0** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:50 am

I'm testing those with the screensaver, seems to work even if windows first switched my screensaver to "none". (I added the flags in the registry).
Anyone tried this before ?
I think a sticky about those flags would be useful, too ^^

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:29 am

A couple observations:

1) We have 342 users. Team MacOSX has 1,514 users. It's pretty incredible that they are only producing 2,500 points more than us per day with that huge user base. We clearly have a SERIOUS edge in terms of points-per-user. It doesn't look like their lead is totally insurmountable yet, either. We NEED MORE FOLDERS!!!!!

2) I think I've figured out one of the secrets as to why the MacOSX team is so inefficient--someone me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think the MacOSX folding client is AltiVec-enhanced, whereas the x86 client is 3DNow/SSE-enhanced. Therefore, we obviously have a HUGE advantage over the Mac people in the SIMD department.

3) I still don't think all our folders have optimized as much as they can. I suspect not everyone is using -forceSSE, for example. I also bet that some people are running the screensaver version. Personally, I see no reason to run anything other than the normal client, since it runs at low priority, and won't interfere with other daily work.

Shad0 · Post by **Shad0** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:17 am

You're right, no slowdown on comp whend running f@h console...
I'm running it at service now coz the minimized console bothered me...works like a charm.
I recommend it, here's the howto:
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/s ... adid=88368

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:44 am

zuperdee wrote:2) I think I've figured out one of the secrets as to why the MacOSX team is so inefficient--someone [correct] me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think the MacOSX folding client is AltiVec-enhanced, whereas the x86 client is 3DNow/SSE-enhanced. Therefore, we obviously have a HUGE advantage over the Mac people in the SIMD department.

Beginning Oct 31 of last year (2003), Folding@Home does support AltiVec, and it made a HUGE improvement from what I read, but AltiVec wasn't added until the G4 generation, so it doesn't help the older Macs.

The second thing is, it's impractical for a dia-hard Mac user to throw together a Mac for a couple hundred dollars, so most of the Mac clan is folding with one Mac, plus whatever they can borg. The agnostics among them (namely Macaholic) use Intel/AMD systems for their dedicated folders.

3) I still don't think all our folders have optimized as much as they can. I suspect not everyone is using -forceSSE, for example. I also bet that some people are running the screensaver version. Personally, I see no reason to run anything other than the normal client, since it runs at low priority, and won't interfere with other daily work.

You are probably right, but if you follow this forum at ALL, you will know about these flags/switches soon enough, since we talk about them all the time, and if you don't follow this forum at all, no amount of stickies will help.

There is no shortage of information available on how to optimize Folding@Home. The problem is, and always has been, how to communicate that information to those who need to know it. I agree, it has not been communicated effectively.

David

mas92264 · Post by **mas92264** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:00 pm

Sorry about the folks that didn't get the -forcesse deal setup. It's been discussed so many times that I thought everyone sorta knew.

I've never bothered much with -forceasm, -verbosity x or any of the other tags except for -advmethods. -advmethods is a must if you want to minimize Tinkers, which can really send Intel folders to the bottom of the rankings. AMD's (in my experience) crunch these much better.

So, the three most important flags are:

-Borg

-forcesse (for compatible AMD chips only)
-advmethods
M

KWSN F-12 Pilot · Post by **KWSN F-12 Pilot** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:27 pm

hey guys, if you ever want to get revenge on the mac users, join team 117, that way they don't pass anymore people

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:13 pm

KWSN F-12 Pilot wrote:hey guys, if you ever want to get revenge on the mac users, join team 117, that way they don't pass anymore people

Taking a line from the movie Top Gun: No way, you can join ours.

grandpa_boris · Post by **grandpa_boris** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:18 pm

mas92264 wrote:-advmethods

i am running F@H as a screen saver. there seems to be only one interface to F@H in that mode -- the clutter-bar (or whatever that's called) icon. how do i set -advmethods?

unregistered · Post by **unregistered** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:48 pm

I asked that question the other day at:

http://forum.folding-community.org/view ... 8613#58613

zuperdee · Post by **zuperdee** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:36 pm

grandpa_boris wrote:i am running F@H as a screen saver. there seems to be only one interface to F@H in that mode -- the clutter-bar (or whatever that's called) icon. how do i set -advmethods?

Out of curiosity, why are you running the screen saver? The normal client runs at a low priority, so it shouldn't interfere with normal use of your computer, and it might help increase your output considerably! One person also mentioned somewhere in these forums that he'd gotten it to run as a Windows Service, so it doesn't even show in your systray!

mas92264 · Post by **mas92264** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:38 pm

Thanks un for posting this at folding.org. The answer over there was "can't do it."

I've never used the screensaver version. As DH mentioned somewhere. the graphical version seems to be the easiest to set up and get going. Console can be a little intimidating at first as there's more setup involved.

Hint: If you use either the console or graphical version, don't let it start on its own the first time. Capture the software (winfah.exe or fah4console.exe) and copy/paste shortcut to your desktop. Then, edit the *.exe file with -advmethods and whatever else and start it from the desktop. That way, it decreases the likelyhood of your first unit being a Tinker. I learned this the hard way.

Have fun folding!

M

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:23 pm

Guys,

I've found that the easiest way to install F@H is to use the FAHlogstats guy's installer (here for the webpage& here for the the DL).

Uses a dialog box that you can enter team #, user name and radio buttons for most of the flags. Will let you pick ID # (1-8 ) and will install as a service. Caution all you multi-processor & HT guys -- it does not give an option to set the -local flag. (I've emailed buzz about that and he's supposed to update the installer, but I'm sure he has other priorities

)

If you want to set the -local flag, you'll have to do that manually. When installed as a service (my preferred method), here are the steps to change/add flags after installed:
1. Stop the service
2. REGEDIT and go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SYSTEM/Services/FAH_X/parameters/AppParameters where X is the ID # (1-8 ) you installed with. Add -local and -verbosity 9 (if wanted).
3. Exit REGEDIT
4. Restart the service.

The installer includes everything you need in one DL -- FAH4Console, all the cores, etc in one package.

Bar none, I've found it the absolute easiest method of installing and puts most of the install options right in front of you.

Give it a shot -- I used it on all but 1 of my systems.

Dave

EDIT It sticks in my mind that TRC-13 has an automagic installer as well -- never used it, but I think I saw a link to it somewhere...

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:03 pm

I have added the FAH4 Console Installer to the "Useful Links" page. That makes SIX service installers, and I still don't have TRC-13's, nor Lockheed's. It might be time for a survey of which one's people have used and whether they would recommend them or not. Heck, the one I use isn't listed there either, so that would make NINE different service installers.

David

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:10 pm

dasman wrote:2. REGEDIT and go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SYSTEM/Services/FAH_X/parameters/AppParameters where X is the ID # (1-8 ) you installed with. Add -local and -verbosity 9 (if wanted).

Bar none, I've found it the absolute easiest method of installing and puts most of the install options right in front of you.

Any service installer which requires you to edit the registry just to add or change the flags is not MY idea of easy to use.

The installer includes everything you need in one DL -- FAH4Console, all the cores, etc in one package.

This is expressly prohibited by the Folding@Home license agreement. The FAH executables are to be downloaded from NOWHERE but the Stanford secure servers. A better approach is for the installer to download the client from Stanford. The client, in turn, will download the core it needs.

David

mas92264 · Post by **mas92264** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:13 pm

Ouch!

M

grandpa_boris · Post by **grandpa_boris** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:24 pm

zuperdee wrote:Out of curiosity, why are you running the screen saver?

on the machine i am using at work, F@H was panicking the system in non-screensaver mode. other things panic that system as well (things like accessing the CDROM drive, for example) so it's almost certainly a rampant DLL corruption. the system needs a reinstall, but i don't have the time to do it and the apps i need for my work run without problems for now.

NoahJ · Post by **NoahJ** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:36 pm

You could take a look at my Windows service installer as well...

TeamMacOSX Windows Service Installer However, no hosting it on your site. You can get it from ours all you like... No strings attached but one, you have to tell me if something does not work well or if you think a part of it can be improved...

It will let you set your own CLI switches, and you can uninstall the service if you don't want it anymore. You can also change the switches after you have installed using the app.

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:48 pm

mas92264 wrote:Ouch!

M

Indeed. Guess I'm a little surly today.

I'm sorry.

NoahJ, thanks for the link. I have added it to the buddinguseful linkspage

David

dasman · Post by **dasman** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:05 am

David,

Didn't know that was against the Stanford rules -- I wonder if the fahstats guy knows that?

And, as for editing the registry to change flags -- I don't find it hard to go into the registry and since I didn't realize that other installers were out there (it's not like their existence has been highly publicized), in my experience, his was the easiest.

Now that I know there are 9 (+the Mac guys Windows installer???)others out there, I'll try those next time.

Dave

NoahJ · Post by **NoahJ** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:03 am

Hey, don't be too shocked, I work at a windows shop...

haysdb · Post by **haysdb** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:26 am

NoahJ wrote:Hey, don't be too shocked, I work at a windows shop...

You find expertise in the strangest places sometimes, don't you?

Did you write the installer Noah? Or do we have Christian Bargmann to thank. If the later, this would be a fine irony, would it not?

David