Bill Cosby explains the orange jump-suit.

[Bluefront]

You don't have to beat kids to get their respect.....take away their cell-phones, take away that Mustang you bought your 16 year old, take away their I-Pod. The point is children in the USA are spoiled rotten, respect no-one and nothing, and have never been held accountable for their actions.

The result.....when they turn 18 they get fitted for orange jump-suits.

The girl in that photo will not be charged with anything. The young boy will be charged with man-slaughter, and leaving the scene of an accident. And an innocent witness to their crimes is dead. Sounds like a real murder to me.....

[aristide1]

The point is children in the USA are spoiled rotten, respect no-one and nothing, and have never been held accountable for their actions.

Yeah, I blame Bush Sr for the mess we're in as well, especially that last part, that's only gotten worse.

[aristide1]

You know if I kept quoting a comedian like Jon Stewart I'd be labeled a fool. But for some reason quoting a comedian like PJ ORourke is not only OK, it adds to one's argument.

How convenient.

The funny thing is Jon is funny because he uses real life video of our administration in action. Where as PJ ...... Well, all we have is an unsubstantiated quote. Man, when BF gets "conservative" with the truth he goes all out.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

Watch some factual news clips (not made up stuff like the spontaneous generalizations you've grown accustomed to hearing here) and decide for yourself.

Check out the 16 second clip called "Moment of Zen – Bush's Support" where Bush can even comprehend simple English. Its all there on tape, not some made up stuff that will turn you BLUE in the front, err, face.

[Bluefront]

As predicted in the OP, the sniveling brat attempts to shift the blame. Bill Cosby described him too well I suppose.

[nick705]

hmmm... I actually rather enjoy the "pie throwing" stage of a thread, but then I'm a simple soul and easily amused. Other people might take a dim view, and it would be a shame if the thread were locked, so might I suggest you put the handbags away, ladies?

[klankymen]

You don't have to beat kids to get their respect.....take away their cell-phones, take away that Mustang you bought your 16 year old, take away their I-Pod. The point is children in the USA are spoiled rotten, respect no-one and nothing, and have never been held accountable for their actions.

I guess it does happen once in a while... I agree with you Bluefront.

As for the subject of beating your children. Here in western Europe we have gotten to a point where most people don't beat their children.

And as is I'd prefer living in western Europe than in the Balkan.

So feel offended all you want, why is it OK for you to speak ill of the USA, but not OK for us to speak ill of your country?

You don't need to hit a child to show him Authority. I was never beaten as a child, and yet haven't dropped out of school, or committed any crimes. Here I am studying at a prestigious university, and seem to be doing fairly well for myself, despite not having endured any physical abuse. Which is not to say I was allowed to do anything as a child - quite the opposite.

Here in western Europe it was the norm to beat your children 40 years ago. Not anymore. So while Croatians beat their children, and probably Kazakhis do, I'd rather live in Bavaria than Croatia or Kazakhstan, from what I've seen of places like Ukraine, Croatia or Romania.

[Matija]

And I'd rather live here, because the so-called western world is rotten to the bone... To the point of being racist, as shown by some replies in this thread.

Filthy dirty inhumane savage foreigners, huh? Us versus them *shudder*.

[klankymen]

Well, then you're one of the few, judging by all the eastern European immigrants here - good for you.

[Bluefront]

This is supposed to be a thread about how children are raised wrong in the USA and other places....... not a thread about George Bush or other politicians. Cosby hit the nail on the head, and his words could be applied everywhere. The policies followed in this country for years, have filled our prisons with people whose parents are mostly to blame. In the city of St Louis, far too many kids are being raised by one parent....usually the mother. In East St Louis it is even worse.....I've heard estimates that over 90% of births are to an un-married woman.

This has got to be a major factor in what's been going wrong around here. No father to give the boy direction......usually a boy-friend hanging around who could care less. No wonder the kid ends up in trouble from the start.

Is there a solution? Yes....but Cosby doesn't supply all the answers.

[aristide1]

As predicted in the OP, the sniveling brat attempts to shift the blame. Bill Cosby described him too well I suppose.

What a joke for logic. A cry baby that only handles things under his own rules. It's why he ran away from the other thread.

Polly want a cracker? Again?

This is supposed to be a thread about how children are raised wrong in the USA and other places....... not a thread about George Bush or other politicians.

You decribed GWB to perfection. I just followed up. Your denial changes nothing.

Polly want a cracker?


Hey how about Ken Lay's parents? Oh I forget he's a misunderstood hero in the republican white book, and your bad parenting topic is just blacks, like all your topics. Whites can do no harm. Now there's a kid that started poor and really ripped people off. What a crook. Where were his parents teaching him right from wrong?

You do realize of course why you get this kind of response don't you? Its because you also ignore perfectly kind, thoughtful, and courteous responses that are completely accurate and treated the same way you treat these because they prove you wrong. IE You earned it. So enjoy.

To the other people - You need to understand, there are people who behave a different way under the anonymity of the Net than in real life in front of real people. It's because they don't want to be associated with their viewpoints. It's a real life embarrassment.

And I'd rather live here, because the so-called western world is rotten to the bone...

Its no different here than anyplace else, it varies, and that's it. Now when you move out of a murderous city you really should take your heart and soul with you, otherwise you're still there, and that's your choice. I forgot the world that describes those obsessed with death, what is it again?

[aristide1]

Jesse Jackson might not care about blacks, but man can he give a good speech. He's from my state btw

Now why should it make a difference where someone is born for any job? Is that part of our "equal" culture?

And when exactly did we start to assign a lower class or rant to people based on their place of birth, something out of their control, just like eye color? That's easy to spot, it started when instead of treating the opposing party as Americans, Ronald Reagan took the childish step of classifying a certain group of Easterners with his peculiar emphasis when exclamating "Massachusetts". And since crap flows downhill we are where we are today. Yeah what a great leader to have for a mentor.

But yea it's a shame all the black leaders other than Cosby seem to be self-interested or Marxist... How long till you're up on the podium Neil?

Denial has always been the way BF never lets go of his pulpit. To address the opposition would be to validate them.

Here's a major clue for BF, and for the rest of us a clear detailed description of everything wrong with his "communication".

http://www.freeinquiry.com/critical-thinking.html

Not that any people here didn't already know all that.

[neon joe]

Many 17-year-olds do not possess the 'higher-order' intellectual skills we should expect of them.

Maybe BF was born in 1991... that would explain alot...

[jhhoffma]

What a joke for logic. A cry baby that only handles things under his own rules. It's why he ran away from the other thread.

Or maybe he gets tired of having his threads hijacked. We would all expect an OP to get upset if he asked a question about a particular HDD or reported discrepancies with SPCR results and someone comes in and makes the thread about watercooling.

To be honest, I think he's got a point he was trying to make and encourage discussion about a particular point and not have another thread become just another left/right shouting match.

and your bad parenting topic is just blacks, like all your topics. Whites can do no harm.

Those kids look white to me...

And to Matija, I wouldn't start lumping all people into one group or you end up sounding like another "ist". Racist is what Milosevic was and--like it or not--when people hear Croatia, that's what they think of...even if they know the difference between Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia. But tell me, do you know the cultural difference the between people in Denver, Dallas, Detroit, and Daytona? Probably not, as neither would most people outside the US even if everyone in those cities were exactly alike.

When people start lumping other people into one group is because they are either too intolerant or too lazy to learn the defining characteristics of an individual before judging them. In the end, you end up with a liberal hating all conservatives, because when he hears conservative, he sees GWB. You end up with millions of Jews slain in the 30's and 40's because a German saw a scapegoat for the plight he was in. And you end up with a black man being hung from trees, because some redneck was too "ignant" to understand that they guy hanging from a tree was a better person than the one tying the noose.

[aristide1]

What a joke for logic. A cry baby that only handles things under his own rules. It's why he ran away from the other thread.

Or maybe he gets tired of having his threads hijacked. We would all expect an OP to get upset if he asked a question about a particular HDD or reported discrepancies with SPCR results and someone comes in and makes the thread about watercooling.

Really? I didn't address bad parenting? When and where were Ken Lay and GWB ever held accountable for anything they did? Hell GWB even had his court records sealed, how accountable is that? You want to address crooks and bad parenting? So do I. I did it without the racial prejudice, and then he whines and calls it hijacking.

To be honest, I think he's got a point he was trying to make and encourage discussion about a particular point and not have another thread become just another left/right shouting match.

That's rather humorous, since it becomes exactly that every time he posts his signature. Not that you noticed or anything. And anyone who "encourages discussion" welcomes new ideas, he doesn't ignore them. You didn't notice that either, huh?

and your bad parenting topic is just blacks, like all your topics. Whites can do no harm.

Those kids look white to me...

Thanks for making my point, by listing kids BF didn't address. Apparently you missed the person quoted in the OP, who certainly was not addressing whites.


See anybody in this pic addressing whites?

Which leaves the question - Are you trying to post with more holes than the OP? You have a ways to go if you are. But I will give you credit for not being a bigot, and you're clearly alone on your side of the argument.

In the end, you end up with a liberal hating all conservatives, because when he hears conservative, he sees GWB.

But he's a man of God, God even talks to him, tells him to start wars. He's the leader of the free world. He's a uniter, not a divider.

[klankymen]

Wanna know what the problem is?

You people don't beat your children.

Good point.
This is probably also the reason why there are so many black criminals. Because police men don't beat black people enough.

[Bluefront]

jhhoffma..... the brat here is using his usual technique that involves building a "straw-man", then breaking it down. He has no defense against what Bill Cosby said about the beginnings of crime, so he avoids the subject completely, and proceeds to destroy an easier target.....poor, old, lame-duck GWB. A common debate technique used by a losing side.....

Concerning the Starbucks "murder"..... everything that's wrong with the system is showing up here. The local liberal prosecuting attorney won't charge the girl because "she may have know what was happening, but doesn't share any blame since the boy stole the money, and drove the car." The boy's father (I didn't hear this myself) got on the local radio and said his son was a "good boy", and placed the entire blame on the girl, who "turned his son bad ever since they started going together" . A local defense lawyer actually blamed the guy who was run over, saying it was his fault for going out on the parking lot, to write down the license number of the get-away car.

So here is what Bill Cosby's speech is all about.....making excuses for bad behavior, and attempting to shift the blame. And a guy is dead who only tried to help.....but instead got in the way of two murderers. Sad commentary on our Liberal-turning society.... described by Bill Cosby.

[mexell]

And I'd rather live here, because the so-called western world is rotten to the bone... To the point of being racist, as shown by some replies in this thread.

Filthy dirty inhumane savage foreigners, huh? Us versus them *shudder*.

I have to admit, my point in what I said about the Balkans was to insult you, and to provocate. That being said, I think I have to excuse about harassing you.

I'm very far from being a racist. I'd call myself a humanist. As such, your views about proper raising a child make my shudder - almost as much as the crimes that were convicted in the Balkans make me shudder. I think that the amount of force that lies within a society is nothing that hasn't got anything to do with how this particular society raised their children. That's the point I want to communicate here, and nothing else.

[aristide1]

jhhoffma said you are not making this yet another one of your black issues, and yet all of them have been exactly that.

Bigotry is passed down from generation to generation, from bad parents. So before you throw another stone you should try looking in the mirror. I don't believe you can even name one white criminal. That's why you refuse to comprehend my point; bad parenting is not a black only problem, the way you make it out to be.

Children tend to meet their parents expectations. Where there are none they will meet that as well. Conclude accordingly for the OP.

To point out uselessly once again people have treated the OP with respect and have gotten the exact same results. So to address such issues as peer pressure would only be ignored, so why bother? None of this is disputable, you've proven time and time again. It's your point or none at all, just like the other lame duck.

[aristide1]

Authority is based on fear and force.

Without respect all you have is a bunch of people who will turn on you the first chance they get, or the moment they are fed up.

By the way, what Bill Cosby said is unpopular, but is a very important part of the problem. We in Germany have the same problem (on a smaller scale) with third- and second-generation immigrants.

Rich white kids snorting coke are just as responsible for the fall of western society as poor minorities smoking crack. It's just that the rich kid's parents have the means to sweep it all under the rug.

[aristide1]

This is supposed to be a thread about how children are raised wrong in the USA and other places....... not a thread about George Bush or other politicians.

Ken Lay is not a politician, though his crimes cost the tax payers the kind of money normally attributed to a politician. Is that what you meant? How about Michael Milken? How where his parents? Any good? How do Ivan Boesky's parents rate with Mr. Cosby? Think he would have any kind words about them? Too fancy for your tastes? Let's bring it down several notches, how about Winona Ryder, pothead shoplifter? Or Tim Allen selling pot? How good where their parents? Please tell us, I'm sure people are waiting to be enlightened.

Cosby hit the nail on the head, and his words could be applied everywhere.

His ideas are not original. His speaking out is. You couldn't find a white person to make such a statement, or you didn't want to?

By hitting the nail on the head doesn't mean others also can't hit the nail on the head, but like Rush Limbaugh you cloak the real motive with a sprinkling of facts to hide your agenda. Which means it's time to point out - If you ever bothered to listen to the oath one takes in an American judicial court he/she swears to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Now of those 3 distinct categories at best you met one out of three. The court is well aware that to omit facts, in this case, bad white parents create bad white kids, is as bad as lying. The question is then is your omission intentional or not? I would simply say your reputation speaks for itself, no one can brand you better than you. You're not mad at what you label deflections, you're mad somebody yelled "The emperor has no clothes on."

And while 1 out of 3 is a failing mark, if you're parents donate a lot of money to your college perhaps they would still pass you with a C. Parenting at it's finest.

[Cerb]

Yeah there are plenty of people in jail in the USA.....almost all for good reason. And there could be more.....most less serious crimes carry no jail time anymore, only "community service".

Hhmmm? Do we need to trade drug incarceration statistics from varying biased sources here, or what (if you don't claim yours to be perfect, I won't claim mine to be; since none actually will be )?

Anyway, you are writing about the problems in the USA being the result of the people not beating their kids enough. What happens when all the people beat their kids enough can be seen in the Balkans all over the last two decades, or not?

No, and your words offend me.

As well they should. Neglect and abuse play huge roles in making criminals, on small and large scales (Germany, FI). Those kids at Starbucks, while screwed up, are exceptions. Those black lifers in prison have 100+ years of events that led to their upbringing. They are socially and economically isolated, and have had poverty and generations of our welfare system to help them along--even when they are only a mile away from the rich WASPs. Here there is a street with seven names, at least two sections of which can be directly tied to the rich folks moving in and not wanting to tell people they lived on the same street as the poor folks.

There aren't any good solutions that our legislators are willing to take risks on--like giving willing fathers more legal legs to stand on. The way our economy has been going, there is little room for businesses to really change things.

[Bluefront]

Cerb....what you say is mostly refuted by the Bill Cosby speech, in which there is no mention of the past being any major contributor to the problems of the present. The Jesse Jacksons of this country need an excuse for the orange jump-suits, and that's what they use.

Cosby's speech was made to a mostly black audience, but the problems he outlines can be applied to everyone who raises kids. The kid can't read, drops out of school and ends up in an orange jump-suit, not because of something from the past which can't be changed.....but because of things that are taking place right now, things that he mentions that can be changed.

Making excuses for what's happening right now won't fix things, nor will placing racial labels on people who agree with Bill Cosby......

If there's something wrong with his assessment, I'd like to hear it, rather than what's being thrown around in this thread thus far....

[spookmineer]

Cerb....what you say is mostly refuted by the Bill Cosby speech, in which there is no mention of the past being any major contributor to the problems of the present.

Refuted? He didn't state it. It's not the same.

He also didn't say water is wet. I guess water is dry where he lives - he didn't refute it.
"in which there is no mention of..." - and therefore, there is none?

The kid can't read, drops out of school and ends up in an orange jump-suit...

My brother can't read (well) ( - I guess that's what you mean), he is dyslexic. He ended up in the printing business. He doesn't wear an orange jump-suit.
I once had to go to a substitute dentist, she wrote a letter to my own dentist and then said she always used spell check because she is dyslexic. She wore a white robe.
This is something my sales manager should do, because every time I get an email from him I subconsciously count the amount of spelling mistakes there are. He wears a suit.

To go short - not being able to read means nothing.
Your logic is flawed, as in so many of your comments (in this thread alone I can point out at least 5 of them - mostly caused by over-generalising and lack of supporting facts).

If there's something wrong with his assessment, I'd like to hear it, rather than what's being thrown around in this thread thus far....

To me there is nothing wrong with his assessment (I don't live in the USA, but it seems plausible).

What is wrong with this thread is the difference between his intention and yours (there is a connection in the threads you posted in the past and this one).
Cosby is talking about a painfull "truth", trying to put people's noses on the facts, trying to make them see they have a choice to make things better.

All you do is talk about the supposed logic of people ending up in jail.
You don't offer any solutions, you state something and then start pointing fingers.
You lack seeing the big picture, you cling to singled out events.
You reply to the comments you are comfortable replying to, while ignoring the rest (pity the IQ thread is gone, plentyful of examples there).
You keep pointing out the worst in people, where are the threads of a bum saving the life of a child?
It's too late to change a trait one has had for a long time, but there is no need to point other people to all the things that are wrong, only wrong, only negative. Where are the bright sides?

When you make a new thread, you don't want to discuss.
This forum is your platform for posting sermon after sermon.

[Cerb]

Cerb....what you say is mostly refuted by the Bill Cosby speech, in which there is no mention of the past being any major contributor to the problems of the present. The Jesse Jacksons of this country need an excuse for the orange jump-suits, and that's what they use.

It's not an excuse. It's part of explaining the current situation. Some of them have been dealt with, but not all in good ways. As spoomineer already noted, I was making an additional statement on the subject of the speech, not commenting on the content of the speech.

Cosby's speech was made to a mostly black audience, but the problems he outlines can be applied to everyone who raises kids. The kid can't read, drops out of school and ends up in an orange jump-suit, not because of something from the past which can't be changed.....but because of things that are taking place right now, things that he mentions that can be changed.

The past creates the present. It's not some dead white guy's fault that a young black kid may end up spending as much time in jail as out, even if said old white guy made it happen (he probably did). The events of the past help make a set of events and consequences that things can be traced back to, and looked at, to try to find solutions to problems (or ideas that get swing votes, depending on your goal).

FI, a great deal of crime in black communities, and now hispanic communities, which only keeps itself going, is related to drug trafficking. Prohibition causes organized crime, in a simple sense. Tackle that, in ways that decrease profit for those involved in the trade, and things will start getting better. Completely legalize, decriminalize, tax, etc.. Not a whole solution, no, but that's a decent chunk of the pie. As it is, people that wise up have a tendency to move away, to safer neighborhoods. The drug war shows no signs of abating.

I'm also all for schooling, team sports, and any other activity, in prison, that might be able to wake people up to what they can do in the world, when they are stuck where they may not see too many options. Such programs seem to get cut left and right. (P.S. holy run-on, Batman!)

Making excuses for what's happening right now won't fix things, nor will placing racial labels on people who agree with Bill Cosby......

I haven't seen any racist labels for anyone agreeing with Cosby. I certainly can't disagree with him. But, what can we do? We can't go in and create a community that works. That must be done from within. I'm not in there. I can't see from inside. I can only see from outside.

If Jesse Jackson died of a heart attack tomorrow, someone else would come in and take his place. Something must be done to get folks to deny people like him.

If there's something wrong with his assessment, I'd like to hear it, rather than what's being thrown around in this thread thus far....

Not everyone's glasses are rose colored. A simple reply is not easy, unless you're into sound bite news (Fox, CNN, etc.).

[jaganath]

a great deal of crime in black communities, and now hispanic communities, which only keeps itself going, is related to drug trafficking. Prohibition causes organized crime, in a simple sense. Tackle that, in ways that decrease profit for those involved in the trade, and things will start getting better. Completely legalize, decriminalize, tax, etc..

not all drugs can be legalized. most cause physical addiction (yes, I know tobacco does as well) and cause side effects which lead to users being unable to function as productive members of society (psychosis, depression, craving etc). however the legalization arguments for some drugs, like cannabis, is fairly strong:

Rational scale to assess the harm of drugs (mean physical harm and mean dependence)

[jdholm]

hmm.. its the neverending issue. Placing the blame vs fixing the problems.

[Bluefront]

I doubt many people are in prison right now for simple cannabis use. It could be legalized, sold like cigarettes, taxed etc. It's not going away no matter what. I can go for a walk a few miles outside town and find it growing wild on the side of the road.

I think the illegal trade in the stuff with the associated crime would mostly cease if it were easily available at the gas station.... fewer orange jump-suits.

But there's always the argument that cannabis use leads to harder drugs. That sort of argument is debatable of course. Our "war on drugs" has missed the mark for sure. But still much of the crime in this city is about illegal drugs....and that continues.

Take a good look at Jesse Jackson's face in the picture...... the truth in Cosby's speech is certainly causing him much dis-comfort.

[jhhoffma]

To me, it's real simple. Cosby's speech simply says (paraphrasing) that we have to take responsibility for the way we raise our children, not blame everyone and everything else for their--and our--failures.

Case in point, in the city I live in, a female student assaulted (beat her up pretty bad too) the principal (also a female) after being suspended for fighting. It took 4 security guards to restrain her and a large amount of pepper spray. The mother happened to be there, she was also arrested after assaulting a security guard--she almost bit his ear off. The mother is now suing the school district, most likely for use of excessive force on her and her daughter, and justifying her actions by claiming she was trying to protect her daughter from harm.

Is this the type of accountability we have to look forward to? Is it what Bill Cosby is talking about? I think so on the latter, in a way. Regardless, I respect what that Bill Cosby has to say, as he is an intellectual and not just some dope celebrity preaching his uneducated mind. In my mind, he's done more to diffuse racial tensions (thus bringing about more racial equality) than Jesse Jackson.

But when it comes down to it, is this a race issue? That's what I'm struggling with here. I don't see that it is. This issue applies to all races, all socioeconomic standings, and all creeds. I see bad kids that live in the hood, and I see bad kids that live in the trailer park, and I see bad kids that live in the 5000sq ft mansion on the other side of town. It's not a black/white/rich/poor thing; it's a responsibility thing.

[Cerb]

I doubt many people are in prison right now for simple cannabis use. It could be legalized, sold like cigarettes, taxed etc. It's not going away no matter what. I can go for a walk a few miles outside town and find it growing wild on the side of the road.

I think the illegal trade in the stuff with the associated crime would mostly cease if it were easily available at the gas station.... fewer orange jump-suits.

But there's always the argument that cannabis use leads to harder drugs. That sort of argument is debatable of course. Our "war on drugs" has missed the mark for sure. But still much of the crime in this city is about illegal drugs....and that continues.

As long as the law is there, and there are people willing to pay enough for someone else to take the risk, there will be producers, traffickers, and dealers. Even legalizing, regulating, and taxing well, combined with publicly-funding rehab programs for the nastier ones, it would lessen, but not remove, problems. There is no simple panacea. That's just one angle to attack.

How do you get parents, that did not have a nurturing childhood, to care, and on a large scale? If you can solve that one, the whole issue can be whooped in a decade or two.

[klankymen]

How do you get parents, that did not have a nurturing childhood, to care, and on a large scale? If you can solve that one, the whole issue can be whooped in a decade or two.

Which pretty much puts us at a dead end....