The Electric Supercar

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:59 am

http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html

0-60mph in 3 seconds, 170mpg equivalent, standing quarter mile 11.5 seconds.....this is truly supercar performance...with batteries!

http://www.grumpy-c-bear.org/Car/200511 ... index.html

Watch the X1 smoke a Ferrari 360 Spider and Porsche Carrera GT! And not be a little, by a lot!

nici · Post by **nici** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:21 am

It might beat the sportscars on the quarter mile, but it would seriously lose if it was a mile or a high speed circuit. A top speed of 112mph is quite limiting, a normal ariel atom is better in pretty much every way, though the "No clutch, no shifting, precise and immediate control of torque in drive and braking, perfect traction controlâ€¦first gear takes you to 112mphâ€¦" part does sound interesting

"First gear" is also the only gear, and range is up to 150miles. yay. I've only seen an atom once, in sweden with UK plates, and the driver crashed it

Nice cars.

The guy driving the Ferrari was a bloody idiot, he kept bouncing off the rev-limiter while doing the burnout..

Im not terribly enthusiastic about electric cars in general.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:09 am

A top speed of 112mph is quite limiting

It is electronically restricted. It can go faster. Not to mention 112mph is way faster than just about any national speed limit in the EU.

Im not terribly enthusiastic about electric cars in general.

Sheesh, I show you a car that runs on the same batteries as in your laptop, can do 0-60 in 3 seconds and gets 170 miles to the gallon, and you're not impressed? I give up....

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:11 pm

This one is old news: http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3817 , but it makes me believe that the X1 could reach 160+ mph.
As a passenger, the maximum speed I experienced on a UK motorway was about 120 mph, in a 5-series beamer.
I'm glad to see that alternative energy cars are reaching the market. Of course, the first market can't be the family car, but the sports car, where they can sell for high prices.

nici · Post by **nici** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:03 pm

Electronically restricted? Why, may i ask? Sportscars are not meant to be sensible and safe things. They are supposed to be mad, vulgar, environmentally disastrous monsters

If the top speed of the motor is 13.000 rpm, and the gear ratio is 8.25:1, and 225/40 tires have a outer radius of 199cm, then its top speed is 117mph. In theory. 13000/8.25=1575.75 rpm at the wheel x199cm (outer diameter of the tire)=313 575.75 centimeters per minute = 188.14545 kph=116.908163 mph. Now im just guessing it has 225/40 tires, but that seems pretty realistic.

The fastest i've been in cars is somewhere around 130-135mph, the cars would not go any faster, and i have to say it's not that exciting. Kind of like an airplane, i feel like laughing at take off, and then i get bored. Lateral G-forces are good, keeping a constant high speed is not terribly interesting. However i can imagine getting pissed off driing at a race track if i would reach top speed at 1/3 of a straightaway.. A friend of mine gets a big adrenaline rush out of driving fast in a straight line, i don't.

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:30 pm

On another board somebody went through the numbers based on it's power and battery capacity. Although they may rate it at 150 miles, that is a lot like saying the Toyota Prius gets 60 MPG too. In the real world the range would likely be in the 100-120 miles area and on the track it would likely last about 30 - 35 miles before the battery was totally flat. Car and Driver tested the Prius and Civic Hybrid on the racetrack too with both of them averaging about 16-18mpg.(source)

Fuel economy on a racetrack is way, way worse than on public roads, even moreso for high output designs. Since the Civic and Prius are inherently low horsepower engines, their maximum worst fuel economy is limited by that fact. Very high horsepower cars tend to get 4-5mpg on the track. Heck, even my 2.0 liter S2000 only averaged 8mpg on the track even though I recorded as high as 30mpg at 75mph on the highway with the A/C on. The X1 is interesting, sure, but limited in purpose. It's not practical as a road car and would only last 30-35 miles on a road course, which isn't very much. Most track events I go to you'll put on anywhere from 60 to 100 miles per day. It would suck to have to pack it up and trailer your car back home with a dead battery after 1 or 2 sessions in the morning.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:49 am

Car and Driver tested the Prius and Civic Hybrid on the racetrack too with both of them averaging about 16-18mpg

This is true for every kind of car though; you can't cheat the laws of physics. Constantly accelerating and decelerating (as you would on a racetrack) requires more energy than travelling at a constant X miles an hour on the freeway; when you are cruising, basically the only reason you need any power at all is to overcome wind and rolling resistance.

The X1 is interesting, sure, but limited in purpose. It's not practical as a road car

It's not meant to be a road car; it's a proof of concept prototype. You're all missing the point; obviously the X1 has been optimised for blistering performance, but we all know there is a trade-off between performance and fuel economy, so the potential of this car lies in the fact you could scale back the performance and get maybe a 300-400 mile range, which is comparable if not better than many regular cars.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:54 am

About 18 months ago I saw the light.

Its so obvious I am amazed no-one has considered it.

Electric racing, just like F1, F2, F3, Formula Ford etc etc promotes car manufacturers to make the things better and better, it also gets a huge amount of limelight and media attention, which is exactly what electric cars need.

Electric sports cars (1 of which is being manufactured, and this Atom is not) are the obvious choice to start at, but the technology needs to be brought down to small low milage town cars that are inexpensive.

I would personally be very interested in an electric car (I do very few miles) but only if they were cheap to buy, they are already cheap to run, and home-charging would not be a problem for me.

Once electric cars get noticed be everyone hopefull Shell or BP (or anyone else) will do something about charging in petrol stations, as there are only 2 electric charge points in the whole of the UK as far as I know.

Oh yeah, and the cars are silent

Andy

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:13 am

andyb wrote:I would personally be very interested in an electric car (I do very few miles)

Then why buy a car to start with?

Oh yeah, and the cars are silent

'cept for the wind noise and the pavement noise.

alleycat · Post by **alleycat** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:42 am

I remember reading about the Tango last year, can't remember where (maybe in this forum?). A different approach compared to the X1, but still interesting. It's great to see a few models in the pipeline that people might actually be able to afford. It's probably just a matter of time before China or India develops a cheap practical design and starts pumping them out by the million.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:03 am

How about this one?

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:05 am

Qviri The reason why I have a car but dont do many miles is because, I will need one in 6months time (I will be using it every day). I used to use it much more than I currently do. Busses are impractical, and a waste of time and money for most of my journeys, and I walk a lot anyway for most short journeys, however when I visit my friends its actually cheaper, and takes half of the time on a 60mile round trip, and is very useful when I am there.

A Ford Fiesta size car would be ideal for most people, going for an ultra small 1-2 person car is not practical in most cases, but its easier to start there and move on, so I welcome any designs like that Tango, and the elctric sports cars.

Hybrids usually suck far more than they should do, mostly because they are either too heavy (Lexus piece of crap 4x4 comes to mind), their petrol/diesel engines are too big, and that reduces the mileage due to the wasted space of the overly large engine/petrol tank.

Ideally whats needed is a small 4 seater with an 850cc engine as backup that doesnt kick in until 50mph, and a range of 200 miles will be fine. This is the kind of car that will appeal to most drivers who dont travel a lot, and their journeys are mostly around town where they never go above 40mph. The next problem is that a home-charge system is going to needed and that plus the car shouldnt cost more than Â£7,000 I cant see this happening for 4-8 years

Andy

nici · Post by **nici** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:17 am

Yeah the Tango was discussed here earlier this year if i remember correctly.

Hybrids are pretty pointless, at least in their current state. A good diesel gets equal or better mileage, with better performance and less pollution... The diesel fuel around here does not contain sulphur, so it doesnt stink. And it is available at every station. And you can get high performance diesels.

And as mentioned an electric car would be significantly more quiet than a petrol for example, but only while driving slow, at higher speed tire and wind noise usually drown out any engine noise.

My car eats something like 30-40l/100km on a track.. Which is something between 5-8mpg. It's a 2litre auto, very much not high performane...

But then again i get crappy mileage even in normal driving, the auto box is horribly inefficient, and i get about 23mpg average in mixed driving. If i drive as economically as possible, i get about 25mpg.. The box is crap. And the brakes fade after three laps...

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:41 am

andyb wrote:as there are only 2 electric charge points in the whole of the UK as far as I know.

goingreen wrote:Free charging in London.

There are 54 free charging points in MasterPark car parks in Westminster, plus free charging points in five of the six City car parks. On street charging points are being introduced on test by some London boroughs shortly.

From www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/benefits . First link in google for "electric car" charging.....

There's day time charging available at Tolvvadon Energy Park near Cambourne/Redruth in Cornwall. This is a 'high tech park' of office type buildings. Geo thermal heating, catching rain water etc.
It's not the only one and we're talking about the great backwater that is Cornwall!!!

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:44 am

nici wrote:And the brakes fade after three laps...

Brakes are for Girlies...

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:24 pm

i get crappy mileage even in normal driving, the auto box is horribly inefficient

Automatics generally get worse mileage than manuals, because autos don't match the engine revs with road speed as accurately as people can and the torque converter wastes energy too.

Go for a manual diesel next time.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:34 pm

jaganath wrote:Go for a manual diesel next time.

Going by nici's other posts on this topic, I think he would have if he had a choice. I suspect his disability may have forced him to get the automatic.

Gojira-X · Post by **Gojira-X** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:41 pm

All this talk of electric cars is all well and good, but no one seems to mention the one achillies heel that both electric and hybrid cars share - Electricity.

From my Electric Power and machines lectures (at lancaster uni), I seem to remember electric motors are heavier and phyically larger than equivilent Hydraulic motors of the same power. Secondly Electrical batteries can never store as much potiential energy as a reservoir (tank) or gas-balenced acumalator.

The only problem with a hydraluic based system is transfering power from the engine to the hydraulic system.

While I was at uni, I decided to design a system that would convert a rwd Nissan Skyline saloon (Infinity G45) chassis to 4wd with minimal or no weight penalty. I kinda got stuck in two areas -
what are the performance characterisitcs of hydraulic motors? and
how much redundency is needed for the hydraulic system.

Hopefully when i get back into engineering, ill have the info to tackle this properly (i work for an insurance company atm)

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:42 pm

Thank Peteamer for the link.

That G-Wiz was looking really great, especially for somone who works in the city, the price is good too, but what alet down on the milage 40 or 48 miles depending on the model, that would have to go up an awful lot before it looses its last drawback.

If it was 200 miles with a 70mph top speed they would sell 10 times as many cars, even if the price was Â£16K.

Looks like sensible electrc cars are still a few years off

Andy

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:19 pm

jaganath wrote:This is true for every kind of car though; you can't cheat the laws of physics. Constantly accelerating and decelerating (as you would on a racetrack) requires more energy than travelling at a constant X miles an hour on the freeway; when you are cruising, basically the only reason you need any power at all is to overcome wind and rolling resistance.

I know, but a Lotus Elise generally serves this purpose of wacky, tiny road car / track car segment a little better. The X1 would only provide you maybe 25 minutes of track time before needing a day to recharge. An Elise should go for 72 minutes or so based and just need a few minutes to refuel again.

The average track day is 4 sessions of 15-20 minutes, which means the Elise can just about go the whole day on a single tank, assuming good fuel control to avoid fuel starvation at a low fuel level, or the Elise owner could do what I do with my F500 car or used to with my S2000 and just bring a small gas can with you to the track.

I'm not saying the X1 is a bad car, but the "weird" sports car segment, which is made up of cars like the X1, the gasoline Arial Atom (which the X1 is based on), the Tesla Roadster, the Elise, Lotus 7 replicas, Factory Fives, Radical SR4 and so on, generally offer a better bang for the buck. Perhaps when electrical storage improves another 2-3x in terms of watt/hours per pound then vehicles like this will have a more level playing field.

Gojira-X wrote:rwd Nissan Skyline saloon (Infinity G45) chassis

Just to clarify, in the USA it's sold as the Infiniti G35. A 45 would designate the presence of a V8, which the Skyline/G does not offer. Also note they spell Infiniti with an "i" at the end. But anyway, yeah I think Nissan actually offers a 4WD vehicle with electrically driven rear wheels. Some version of the Nissan Micra or something?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:31 pm

The X1 is not a production sports car; it's just meant to show that all-electric vehicles can have performance as well as environmental benefits. It's meant to counteract the image of electric vehicles which has been created by cars like the G-Wiz, which are slow, uncomfortable, have pitiful range and are awful to drive.

The major promise of electric vehicles is not as track cars, but as ordinary commuter vehicles which do not require astonishing performance, but offer comfort, economy and excellent environmental benefits.

If it was 200 miles with a 70mph top speed they would sell 10 times as many cars, even if the price was Â£16K.

Looks like sensible electrc cars are still a few years off

The Prius can be converted to have a much larger range by adding larger battery packs; there's only one company in the UK that does this, to my knowledge:

http://w10.eleven2.com/~plugin/concept/index.htm

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:54 pm

That better battery pack for the Prius only gives it 35 Miles which it crap.

Andy

nici · Post by **nici** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:09 pm

Im all for more environmentally friendly cars, but personally i put driving enjoyment over fuel consumption, within some reson of course. I would not have a 5mpg car as a daily driver. So when electric cars get as good as petrol cars, i might just get one. By as good i mean similar or better performance and driveability with a 1000km+ range, and comparable price. 1000km because i want to be able to be able to drive for a full day without stopping to charge for four hours halfway there. With a gas/diesel it takes minutes to fill up, so it doesnt matter much if the range is 400 or 1000km.

qviri wrote:
jaganath wrote:Go for a manual diesel next time.
Going by nici's other posts on this topic, I think he would have if he had a choice. I suspect his disability may have forced him to get the automatic.

Extreme sports are dangerous...

There is stuff available that would allow me to drive a manual, Guidosimplex is one example of a manufacturer. Theres even a video of how the automated clutch works somewhere on the sire. Theres plenty of stuff for autos, i could even drive by pressing the pedals with a broomstick

Im not terribly fond of the power delivery of diesels, they have a very narrow usable rpm range which gets annoyng in a manual. Which is why a modern powerful diesel works so well with a good automatic box. Modern automatics are pretty efficient, adapt to your driving style and situation, have enough gears and generally just do they job of shifting wihout needing attention or causing frustration. The box in my car is a four speed ZF which was probably designed in the eighties/early nineties, if not earlier. And its tuned for comfort and fuel economy, so in addition to being thirsty, it also makes the car sluggish and boring.

More people should just use a bike.

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:54 pm

andyb wrote:That better battery pack for the Prius only gives it 35 Miles which it crap.

Actually with a 35 mile all-electric range, I would drop to almost zero gasoline usage. The 2008 (or is it 2009?) Prius is expected to offer a little more battery capacity and expanded all-electric abilities. The trend seems to be towards current hybrids continuing to expand their all-electric abilities in each generation and the line between PHEV and BEV gets more and more blurry.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:30 am

Well it looks like the Hybrid car makers are going the right way, but only London (even then only parts) seems to be the shining light for electric cars.

Here are 2 links on todays news, one about electric cars, and the other about the gas-gusling-dangerous-wastes of space AKA 4x4's.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6211076.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6212886.stm

If I worked in inner london where they have those charge points and lived a short distance outside of london I would probably buy one of those cars, they are totally free to run and use inside london.

Andy

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:15 am

AZBrandon wrote:
andyb wrote:That better battery pack for the Prius only gives it 35 Miles which it crap.
Actually with a 35 mile all-electric range, I would drop to almost zero gasoline usage. The 2008 (or is it 2009?) Prius is expected to offer a little more battery capacity and expanded all-electric abilities. The trend seems to be towards current hybrids continuing to expand their all-electric abilities in each generation and the line between PHEV and BEV gets more and more blurry.

Question - What happens in the cold with a Prius when the driver turns up the heat? Somehow I can't see having an electric heater in a car, lots of current used up very quickly.

nici · Post by **nici** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:54 am

35miles would be enough for most people to get to work, but not if one has to drive under 33mph to get 35miles out of it.

Check out he site of Swedish Association of Green Motorists, the newsletters contain information on when different manufacturers are supposed to release stuff like ethanol/electric hybrids and fuel cell cars..

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:32 pm

aristide1 wrote:Question - What happens in the cold with a Prius when the driver turns up the heat? Somehow I can't see having an electric heater in a car, lots of current used up very quickly.

The Prius has two heaters - the electric heater and a standard heater core that uses engine coolant. Since the Prius is still essentially an economy car and the current model came out in 2003, just a few years after the first hybrids came to market you can't expect too much. I'm sure people thought the Commodore 64 was lame garbage, and that represented a decade of advancement in personal computers. Anything based on technology (as opposed to purely mechanical devices) tends to get better over time.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:43 pm

I'm sure people thought the Commodore 64 was lame garbage, and that represented a decade of advancement in personal computers. Anything based on technology (as opposed to purely mechanical devices) tends to get better over time.

I personally can't wait for diesel-electric hybrids to hit the market, we should be looking at 80-90mpg (UK gallons).

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003250.html

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=163838

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:17 am

Greetings,

Here's a very kewl prototype, that seems like it could actually be built:

and here:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/ ... 5-seconds/

The Electric Supercar

The Electric Supercar

Hybrid Mini Cooper