Mark Klein is my Hero!

[Trip]

Not just that. 1. GDP can be inflated and 2. GDP can be wasted.

No matter how many times an economist repeats it, 'consumption' is not good for the economy, investment is. Why would a country want to expend its resources on investment rather than consumption? 1. it conceives of improvements and 2. it wishes to get ahead of other nations, so as to be able to defend itself.

The thinking is that if consumption dropped dramatically there'd be less of a drive for the economy, but what if an economy spent its resources on continued investments? E.g. research, improved productivity for what is used, training, and the environment, beautifying projects that improve happiness and thus productivity, autarky so as to increase sovereignty, and perhaps leisure activities that offer value for their improvements in virtue and happiness (which then leading to lower crime, better children, stable and durable society, etc.)

Traditionally greed has been viewed as dishonorable and opposed to society's interests. America has embraced the mantra that 'greed is good' and drives the economy. We're living with the corrupt and traitorous result as folks have realised breaking and changing the rules is far more profitable than not - and if everyone's out for his own interests anyway, why not if one can get away with it?

I'm not a socialist btw, I'm actually categorised as right wing if capitalism is put back on the left where it originated (Smith was a liberal), but there are ways a state can manipulate its economy.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

So -- back on topic: do you think that the Constitutional losses are justified?

For me, the balance of power is the backbone of our Constitution, and Bush's claims to indefinite power are anything but balanced -- and therefore unconstitutional. Never mind the war crimes that he has committed.

[Flandry]

GDP Growth
USA 3,2%
Finland 5,5%

Inflation
USA 2,5%
Finland 1,2%

National debt
USA: 70% of GDP
Finland: 35% of GDP

You are in the middle of a subprime mortgage crisis, oil prices are going up and value of dollar is going down. Future doesn't really look too bright for you at the moment.

Finland on the other hand is living on constant economical growth and our unemployment is steadily diminishing (5.9% is the lastest number). Things are looking good for us.

2 years from now, I'm going to come back and dig up this thread. It'll be fun to compare numbers then.

I don't doubt you're on a better footing than we are. Finland has no significant minority or immigrant population and consequently (yes, it's consequently) an extremely high literacy rate -- with all the other benefits that involves. The US is increasingly encumbered by the task of trying to pull large immigrant groups up by their bootstraps, as it were, and even more significantly, try to make constructive citizens out of "minorities" that are increasingly majorities, but still slogging on with a defeatist mentality. I hope someone gets into office who will make policies about that kind of thing more rational, but considering it's gonna be a Democratic sweep, i doubt it.

Back on topic: hooray for governmental corruption whistleblowers!

[walle]

Well...

Its more or less a collapse of the entire international monetary system here. France is basically broke and Germany is not far behind and since the Euro is climbing this means that exporting our goods around this planet of ours becomes somewhat impossible (close to), and with the US economy tanking (the country is basically broke) European companies moves over to the US (BMW moving more factories) and Boeing (for instance) getting more contracts whilst also Airbus is now forced to move over to the US. Anyhow; roughly 800 million dollars are in circulation right now and the US debt is about 8 trillion dollars. Now, what do you pay the national debt with? Well; federal reserve notes, right. So how are they supposed to pay the debt when there are not enough money in the world to freaking pay it?!? It’s a damn monopoly game played out by some very twisted perverted freaks and it pisses me (and others) off.

And by the way, if you have extra money, don't support the banking system by buying their gold and silver.

I have already purchased gold and silver, and no; me doing so does not support the private owned banks.

You are in the middle of a subprime mortgage crisis, oil prices are going up and value of dollar is going down. Future doesn't really look too bright for you at the moment.

Both Sweden and Finland are (as of yet) not a part of the Euro, but to state that we would be better of is all but an illusion that soon enough shall become painfully clear, our economies don't operate in a vacum.

Again; We’re all in this mess together and our middle class will become utterly destroyed unless something is done!

By the way, I believe that silver goes for around 30 dollars an ounce? and gold? well, I recon gold within a year will go for around 1100 dollars. So for those who have savings should get silver and gold (IMO) before one needs to spend to much paper money.


cheers

[Plissken]

Hello,

So -- back on topic: do you think that the Constitutional losses are justified?

For me, the balance of power is the backbone of our Constitution, and Bush's claims to indefinite power are anything but balanced -- and therefore unconstitutional. Never mind the war crimes that he has committed.

Sorry for going off topic in "off topic" earlier, but purpose of those posts was to highlight the staggering amount of hyperbole in these and other threads. The USA has some problems, but is certainly not "going to hell in a handbasket". Likewise, while GDP per capita is not the only measure of economic well-being, it is certainly not "pure bullshit". And Neil, you are also guilty with "Bush's claims to indefinite power". If you are so certain, I'll bet you a million dollars that Bush leaves office in Jan 2009, just like the Constitution says. It is difficult to have intelligent debate when these types of ridiculous exaggerations and claims are constantly made.

And now back your original topic, I don't think it's unreasonable to copy network data for purposes of monitoring potential terrorist activities. We're talking about thousands of simultaneous connections. Do you honestly expect them all to be monitored in real time? I let someone else figure out how many new government employees that is going to take. As for "copying the whole Internet", I'll also let someone else figure out how many petabytes of hard drive space that would require.

[Trip]

Hello,

So -- back on topic: do you think that the Constitutional losses are justified?

For me, the balance of power is the backbone of our Constitution, and Bush's claims to indefinite power are anything but balanced -- and therefore unconstitutional. Never mind the war crimes that he has committed.

The Constitution is pretty clear, and Bush is in breach on several instances, not just this... I wholeheartedly agree with you that the balance of power is most important to our Constitution.

I would argue it violates

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

And Neil, you are also guilty with "Bush's claims to indefinite power". If you are so certain, I'll bet you a million dollars that Bush leaves office in Jan 2009, just like the Constitution says. It is difficult to have intelligent debate when these types of ridiculous exaggerations and claims are constantly made.

If the only Constitutional requirement made of the president was to leave office at the end of the term -- that would be a pretty crappy Constitution.

What I meant was that Bush has claimed a lot of extraordinary powers because of the so-called "war on terror", and in the name of national security, and he has claimed executive privilege (for total and unaccountable secrecy) for similar (and other) reasons. Since the working definitiion of "war on terror" can (and has) been applied to a whole range of things -- it is almost impossible for the "war on terror" to ever end!

First of all, the idea that you can "defeat" terror with military might is pretty ludicrous. A war on terrorists has only a little bit more substance -- but is still completely open ended and easily manipulated.

So, if we cannot know when this "war on terror" is over, then there is no end to Bush's claim on power. I am being very reasonable, and I am making no exaggerated claims.

Bush has made just about every boneheaded mistake that he could have made, if he tried. He has gutted the FDA, the FCC, the EPA, the Justice Department including the OLC, he has stretched the military near to the breaking point, and he has underfunded just about everything including support for wounded and retired veterans. He has turned a record surplus into a record debt. Gawd, I could go on....

Prime Minister Howard is out, and yes Bush will be out in just over 13 months -- I can't wait. I hope he lives long enough to see the havoc that he has reeked, and I hope he squirms.

[NeilBlanchard]

What George Washington said on treatment of the enemy:

http://thegooddemocrat.wordpress.com/20 ... the-enemy/

If only George had listened to George...

[Plissken]

there is no end to Bush's claim on power. I am being very reasonable, and I am making no exaggerated claims.

Of course you are, Neil! His power will end in January, 2009. Or do you think he will still be in charge? If so, take my bet. Otherwise, please admit your claim is pure hyperbole.

As for the "war on terror", I hate that probably more than you. It should be "war on Islamic extremists" or something, but I guess that isn't P.C. enough in this day and age. But it is, in fact, a war... one that I'm not willing to surrender. I like my freedom. The pre-9/11 mindset coupled with BDS exhibited by so many people is mind-boggling.

And as for the rest of your post, it is full of more ridiculous exaggerations which aren't worth debating on that adolescent level. That's exactly what I was talking about. Focus, make a claim, and back it up logically without hyperbole. Exaggerated claim after claim is annoying. I realize this isn't a professional debate forum but at least we can try to elevate the level of discussion a little.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I do think that (probably) Bush will be out of office January 20, 2009 (416 days from now). But this is not the limit of power that I am worried about.



*I am worried about the "national security letters" (see above).

*I am worried about the unfettered access to all data on most telecoms optical cables -- domestic and foreign. (The OT of this thread, BTW.)

*I am worried about politicos hiring and firing within the Justice Department.

*I am worried about politicos rewriting scientific findings.

*I am worried that Bush has privatized too much of the military.

*I am worried that Bush has privatized too much of the intelligence gathering.

*I am very worried about the lack of oversight of mortgages may throw our economy into a tailspin -- and the banks will get a bailout. Time will tell, but this seems to have shaken things up pretty badly.

*I am very concerned with the lack of honor and decency that we are showing our wounded and retired military people.

*I think Bush wants to wait and see if the lower third of Florida gets flooded before he'll actually lift a finger to reduce carbon emissions.

*God forbid that we should raise taxes to actually pay for this awful war -- the reasons for which it was started were all lies.



Other than that -- Bush has been the best president since Clinton.


Which of these points would you like to debate?

[Plissken]

Neil, I think you worry too much about things you shouldn't, and not enough about things you should. But that is a topic for another thread

Which of these points would you like to debate?

I would like to focus and stay on the original topic. How about a response to my response?

And now back your original topic, I don't think it's unreasonable to copy network data for purposes of monitoring potential terrorist activities. We're talking about thousands of simultaneous connections. Do you honestly expect them all to be monitored in real time? I'll let someone else figure out how many new government employees that is going to take. As for "copying the whole Internet", I'll also let someone else figure out how many petabytes of hard drive space that would require.

Your response would, of course, be based on the assumption that you agree:
- There are terrorists in other countries (and probably the USA as well) that want both you and I dead.
- They are using the telphone and the Internet to attempt to coordinate an attack to do just that.

Now, if you can't agree with the above two points, then I guess we don't have much to discuss on this topic.

[floffe]

Both Sweden and Finland are (as of yet) not a part of the Euro

Finland has been part of the Eurozone since the start, I know I used it when I went there in spring 2002.

[walle]

Both Sweden and Finland are (as of yet) not a part of the Euro

Finland has been part of the Eurozone since the start, I know I used it when I went there in spring 2002.

Sorry floffe (and all others) my mistake, they do use the Euro.

[Trip]

Neil,

a friend just put up an article at the site I post at, Civil Liberties Death Spiral update. You wouldn't like the Southern conservative bend of the site, but you'd like that article.

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

I would like to focus and stay on the original topic. How about a response to my response?

And now back your original topic, I don't think it's unreasonable to copy network data for purposes of monitoring potential terrorist activities. We're talking about thousands of simultaneous connections. Do you honestly expect them all to be monitored in real time? I'll let someone else figure out how many new government employees that is going to take. As for "copying the whole Internet", I'll also let someone else figure out how many petabytes of hard drive space that would require.

Your response would, of course, be based on the assumption that you agree:
- There are terrorists in other countries (and probably the USA as well) that want both you and I dead.
- They are using the telphone and the Internet to attempt to coordinate an attack to do just that.

Now, if you can't agree with the above two points, then I guess we don't have much to discuss on this topic.

I think it is futile to try and stop terrorists by monitoring the Internet and all phone calls, and to try and do so might induce a false sense of security. I think that doing this in total secrecy and without any "nuetral" oversight is ripe for abuse -- lots of abuses are possible.

To do this tramples several major Consititutional rights -- and this means that the terrorists have already had their biggest success. We need to not let the terrorist drive the situation -- and we need to follow our own rules and be proactive to take away the reasons that the USA is being attacked.

We would do a lot more to improve our security if we followed George Washington's advice. (see above)

We need to REALLY support democracies around the world

we need to REALLY respect human rights for all

we need to get out of the zombie-oil-sucking mode that puts us at the mercy of large, profit driven companies who, in turn, trample over sovereign rights of other nations and people to get at their oil, at all costs.

This is a stragegy that has a chance of working. Bush's strategy of secrecy and "shoot 'em if they don't like us" is not working -- and it can never work. In fact, it is having the effect of "creating" more terrorists -- kinda' like the Hydra monster: chop off on of it's multiple heads, and it grows two more.

[Plissken]

I think it is futile to try and stop terrorists by monitoring the Internet and all phone calls

Then you disagree with members of congress (from both parties) that have toured the NSA facility and have said their methods are valuable and important. And your reasoning is... well, because you say so.

I think that doing this in total secrecy and without any "nuetral" oversight is ripe for abuse -- lots of abuses are possible.

There you go again with the hyperbole. It's not in "total" secrecy. There is oversight by members of congress, many of which hate GWB more than you (if that's possible). Obviously too much exposure of the details of the system would hamper its usefulness. There is a fine line somewhere, and that's what I'm trying to explore. But "giving up" is not an option for me.

take away the reasons that the USA is being attacked.

I see. When we are attacked by extremist Islamic nutjobs it's our fault.

[Trip]

If you see wild boar in the woods and purposely annoy it, yea you're to blame when it charges after you with murderous fury. The term is called blowback. Rather than trying to convert the world to holy democracy, why not accept that wild boars exist and handle them only as they truly threaten?

Neil's position of supporting democracies is part of why they hate us. And looking at Palestine, democracy can elect extremists - we don't want 'the people' to have their say because 'the people' are nutty. The neocon ideology is about spreading democracy, followed by globalism, and some nations don't want 'democracy.' If not a threat, why provoke?

Our meddling in Iran has caused the moderates to lose popularity...

Problems with America's enlightened democracy: it assumes equality between a lowly street urchin who's never worked a day in his life with a preacher who has spent his entire life studying and working for the community. It assumes that the average voter has the time, education, intelligence, and objectivity to vote for what is best. Also, as Aristotle pointed out, democracies tend to last until the poor realise they can vote for more wealth, and there are always more poor than not. We know the problems of democracy, and yet we blindly embrace it like a religion.

[walle]

Interesting discussion...

I see. When we are attacked by extremist Islamic nutjobs it's our fault.

I have yet to see where Neil is stating that it’s the American population whom are responsible for terrorist attacks. I assume that you refered to "our" as in being the American people, correct.

[Plissken]

Interesting discussion...

I see. When we are attacked by extremist Islamic nutjobs it's our fault.

I have yet to see where Neil is stating that it’s the American population whom are responsible for terrorist attacks. I assume that you refered to "our" as in being the American people, correct.

Yes you are correct. We both live in the USA. Neil said "we need to remove the reasons..." and I extended that to my statement. If he doesn't think it's our fault, he can correct me, but based on these discussions I'm pretty sure he does.

I would like to get back to the wiretapping issue (the original topic), because I think it is very interesting and complicated. Unless one is in an extreme camp on either side - no wiretapping of anything, even foreign transmission (i.e. no intelligence gathering at all), or complete access by the government to all transmissions to do as they please - there is some middle ground that needs to be sought.

[aristide1]

there is no end to Bush's claim on power. I am being very reasonable, and I am making no exaggerated claims.

Of course you are, Neil! His power will end in January, 2009. Or do you think he will still be in charge? If so, take my bet. Otherwise, please admit your claim is pure hyperbole.

I think you know perfect well Neil mean "no end to Bush's claim on power in terms other than the deadline of 1-20-2009. He blows off any sense that any laws of this land apply to him. While he does have a deadline everything he does in no different than that of a dictator, or more ironically the very man he went after, or more ironically the very many others went after for him, of which many died and none were of his relation.

[Jokoto]

The problem with unwarranted wiretapping, NSLs and the methods the current administration in US has introduced is that they violate the due process of law that should be one of the cornerstones of any western civilization. If we let anyone, anyone, have such broad rights and powers without proper oversight and safeguards, abuse of those powers is only a matter of time. We humans are extremely fallible and the only hope we have of building a system that does not oppress those who can't defend for themselves is in designing the system so that no one person can exercise significant power without having the support of others.

Currently you have laws that grant some people rights to trample on the rights of others and if there happens to be abuse, it will never be heard of. I can't believe you believe members of congress alone can provide sufficient checks and balances! They are a legislative body with their hands full already - and, as it happens, they haven't been very good at that, even. Such a high-level body can never spare the attention required for the day-to-day operations of an agency 'at the front lines' - it is simply ill-equipped for that job. It could only function as a rubber stamp condoning their actions after the fact, and who knows what they are being reported in the first place if no neutral party has been involved. You should know how misleading reports on complex issues can be if needed, to cover up things or even present things that simply are not true as facts. That is how the current Iraq war started.

[Trip]

Jokoto, enough with the smart talk, we're Americans.

We understand two things: Team Republican and Team Democrat. So, which are you?

I joke, I agree with you entirely. Or, I think I do. What's your solution specifically? The Iraq War was not actually declared - Congress voted to delegate the right to decide to Bush, which it can't do...

[tibetan mod king]

There is no end game other than doom for a race of beings that puts the love of money above all things. This is a genetic defect, the value of a meaningless abstraction, instead of tangible improvements in quality (i.e. evolution).

Humanity, for the most part, has shown itself to be weak, corrupt, violent, and greedy beyond all measure. Humanity has opted out of its own future.

Instead of figuring out how to dominate the universe, humanity has settled on dominating each other, on raping its world, to the death.

People can quibble about meaningless details such as national security letters, GDPs, Democrat-Republican, etc. These details do not matter. Not one bit. They are just noise, programming designed to distract and waste your energy. Life happens in spite of this noise.

Smart Americans (those few that are left... the term is largely an oxymoron today... well, let us say smart people elsewhere) are adapting to the times and taking care of those people that matter to them. In many ways, this is as it always was, but the situation is more grim today. Maybe this is buying some land, some guns, and making new friendships designed for survival instead of going to the football game. In any case, it is having a "Plan B" as the American culture lies in ruins and the American empire spirals downward.

Here's a jump. The best way to help the system decay faster is to withdraw to a defensible perimeter. And hold that perimeter at all costs. It is not smart to try and win a battle that cannot be won. Trying to put real leadership into government is one of those battles. The faster the system decays, the sooner there will be a rebirth of a new system. Trying to fix/prop up the old system is an exercise in futility.

Most importantly, if you want to have a chance in the future, you have to get un-stupid, un-ignorant (ahem).

9/11 was not about Islam, certainly not about "terror". It was about creating a pretense to go to war. The war had these objectives:

Afghanistan:
- restore production of the poppy fields (which are owned by the British royal family who own much of the world wide drug trade)
- ensure the building/maintenance of desired oil/gas pipelines.
- enroll Afghanistan in the Central Bank.

Iraq:
- steal many priceless artifacts
- take control of over $30 trillion in oil reserves
- provide an oil supply to the Rothschild country, Israel
- make Iraq a member of the Central Bank
- parcel out the oil to the various ruling families
(through proxies of course)

Sidenote: "Axis of Evil" = all nations not part of the Central Bank. Extra credit question: How much money do the owners of the Central Bank (a private organization) make when your national debt is 35% to 70% or more of your GDP? BTW, in the US the Central Bank is called the Federal Reserve.

Of course, pass the bill to the US taxpayer, all $2 trillion of it. Because the US taxpaper is nothing more than a "willing idiot". Someone willing to believe that a bunch of people who don't use technology to any extent somehow masterminded the most sophisticated attack on any nation -- ever. Every piece of evidence shows a different group of people carried out 9/11. But for a nation of sheeple who are addicted to Hollywood slop, can one expect anything more? No.

A few other things:
- Central Banking. Understand this system, how it works and who owns it, and you will understand much of the world. This includes understanding how money is created out of nothing and how "growth" is required to keep the system afloat.
- Energy. Understand how this system works and who owns it. You will find that many of the same families that own the Central Banking system also own the key energy companies.
- Environment. Look at what is happening to the world as an ecosystem not just "global warming". Understand how fast life is becoming extinct all over the world.
- Population. There are more humans than rats. Everything else dies while humanity breeds like an out of control cancer. Understand how population is managed... what organizations promote overpopulation and what organizations promote underpopulation of certain groups.

One could write more. But there is no need. Well, we will end with one little piece of insider knowledge:

If you want to buy a real gun in the US, you should do it before November 2008. After that, it is going to get very hard to buy many guns that are available today.

Good luck to those who decide to walk the path of freedom and independence -- and especially kind wishes to those who fight for Mother Earth. Those people who protect the Mother of all are the noblest of us.

[Plissken]

There is no end game other than doom for a race of beings (...snip)

Do you share a jail cell with Lyndon LaRouche?

[Plissken]

The Iraq War was not actually declared - Congress voted to delegate the right to decide to Bush, which it can't do...

Sure it was declared. What do you think the "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq" was, chopped liver? The Constitution doesn't say how to declare war. That was a declaration of war. Just like the "Iraq Liberation Act" pushed by Clinton in 1998 declared the US policy of regime change in Iraq.

[Michael Sandstrom]

I worry that Dubya will not give up power willingly. The engineering of a national emergency that prevents the presidential election is within the realm of possibility.

[tibetan mod king]

There is no end game other than doom for a race of beings (...snip)

Do you share a jail cell with Lyndon LaRouche?

No, I used to sail on the Calypso with Jacques Cousteau:

“The road to the future leads us smack into the wall. We simply ricochet off the alternatives that destiny offers. Our survival is no more than a question of 25, 50 or perhaps 100 years.â€

[Trip]

The Iraq War was not actually declared - Congress voted to delegate the right to decide to Bush, which it can't do...

Sure it was declared. What do you think the "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq" was, chopped liver? The Constitution doesn't say how to declare war. That was a declaration of war. Just like the "Iraq Liberation Act" pushed by Clinton in 1998 declared the US policy of regime change in Iraq.

No, the US has not declared war since WWII.

Before exercising the authority granted in subsection (a), the President shall make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) the United States has used all appropriate diplomatic and other peaceful means to obtain compliance by Iraq with the United Nations Security Council resolutions cited in subsection (a); and

(2) that those efforts have not been and would not be successful in obtaining such compliance.

(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

SEC. 3. REPORTS TO CONGRESS.

At least once every 60 days, the President shall submit to the Congress a summary on the status of efforts to obtain compliance by Iraq with the resolutions adopted by the United Nations Security Council in response to Iraq's aggression."

That is putting the burden on the President.

I dare you to find one declaration of war since WWII. Korea, Viet Nam, Serbia, none of them were declared.

Wikipedia page is fairly well organised.

Or, take a look at USA Today.

[Trip]

What a Declaration of War looks like:

The War Resolution

Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.

Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:

Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States

[Jokoto]

I worry that Dubya will not give up power willingly. The engineering of a national emergency that prevents the presidential election is within the realm of possibility.

They only need to make sure they win again - something they've been able to arrange before, to the astonishment of the rest of the world.

What's your solution specifically?

I don't think I really have a solution. In any case, you will have to find it for yourselves - which I hope you are still allowed to do before you become a de facto autocracy. At least the first step is clear in principle if not in practice: reversal of the madness of the last seven years and all of its legislative missteps.

Going along for your joke a little bit: If either of the "Teams" you now have were perfect, I would have thought you had recognized it already and never voted for the other guys anymore. Or maybe you did and voted accordingly, but it didn't count!